[Deck] Armageddon Stax

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Originally Posted by Xero

So, the Stax list that top 8'd the Source Tournament ran 0x Angels and 4x Magi. What do you think about this?

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I am the Stax player who took top8 at the Source Tournament. Angel I believe is a HUGE win more card in this deck. This deck wins by locking out opponents and pinging away with 2 power dorks in the form of Magus and Factory. The only time I would want Exalted Angel is games two or three when I bring in my Suppression Fields as it takes a long time to be able to actively go on the offensive with Mishra's Factories as the mana investment becomes a hassle.

Mordel summed it up nicely - "Angels strike me as more of a luxury/crutch for players that are less confident in their choice deck for a metagame or overall skill-level in playing the deck."

I only played this deck at 2 other local tournaments (3 rounds cut to top 4) before taking it to the Source Tournament. Patience is definitely needed to play this deck correctly. I prefer the no Angel route simply because NEVER do I want to drop it in my first 3-4 turns as I want to be slowing down my opponent and after turn 4 I should have the game just about locked to where I want it so what is the point of having a 4/5 flying beater. I'd rather just wait for either a) My opponent to scoop or b) draw more lock pieces and wait for a Factory or Magus. Also my two losses of the day came from both Dreadstill Lists that were in the Top 8. Dreadnought is VERY bad news for you so I would urge everyone to try to cut some spots for Oblivion Ring in the main if you are not already running it.

I talked to Machinus after my top 8 loss and he gave me a few tips and play errors that he saw which were mostly due to my inexperience with the deck.

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Originally Posted by Mordel

With that said, I'll admit it:I am a pussy and I run two angels, so I am not trying to step on anyone's toes. I have won on her muscular back when lock pieces weren't fitting right and I had an opening to try to get four or five swings in and win off those in case I wasn't able to pull what I needed off the top. I don't have the experience with this deck guys like Fred have, so a backup plan is necessary for me if I can afford the two slots, which I can with my current build.

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I agree on this part. There are times when you've fallen behind, not necessarily because you misplayed, but simply because your opponent had a very strong early & midgame. Angels can turn the whole thing around thanks to the huge life swing.

Additionally, let's not forget the issue of going to time. Nobody's denying that the deck is incredibly slow at winning. 2 Angels in the main help ensure that you won't always go to time if you don't go 2-0.

That's why I'm keeping Angel as a 2-of.

I'm wondering if Exalted Angel is still considered a "win more" card when Moat is in the maindeck. I use Moat, because sometimes you can drop a Moat and sit around for 40 turns until you topdeck Exalted Angel and then win. This happens often enough that I play these cards week after week. My current mix is 3 Angels, 2 Mishra's Factories, 3 Magus of the Tabernacle. I cut one Magus because having more Exalted Angels makes me want Magus just a little bit less. I bounced between 2 and 3 Mishra's Factory for a long time. I finally settled on two, though this is only because I have 2 foil ones.

I don't think there is a way to solve the questions of "how many cardname should I use?". Each Stax list looks good, each card you use depends on how many of the other cards you use. In some builds, Exalted Angel isn't needed at all, and those slots are better dedicated to other cards. In other builds it's the win condition 90% of the time.

I suppose this post is a waste of board space though. No new info here. I should have though of that before I typed this out. :smile:

Here's my new list that my friend used and top 8'ed in at a local Legacy Tournament

Land:
6x Plains
4x Wasteland
4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
3x Flagstones of Trokair
2x Mishra's Factory
1x Ghost Quarter
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Artifacts:
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
4x Mox Diamond
4x Crucible of Worlds
3x Smokestack

White:
4x Ghostly Prison
4x Armageddon
3x Magus of the Tabernacle
3x Exalted Angel
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Moat

Side:
3x Pithing Needle
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Aura of Silence
4x Supression Field
3x Jotun Grunt

I really like the 1-of Moat and the Oblivion Rings Main, usually wishing for at least 1 in my hand through most games. Moat can just win games against a lot of decks while you proceed to lock them out or kill them with an angel. Oblivion ring is nice against random things, board sweepers, and big creatures like tombstalker or a big goyf that will kill you through 1 ghostly prison.

I recently brought the Smokestack count to 3 and never missed the 4th. Also, I cut the 4th Flagstones. Too many games I had two in my opening hand unable to get land drops to play spells that turn instead of waiting until the next. The one-of ghost quarter also can serve as the 4th flagstones and with a wasteland + crucible lock some times opponents play enough basics to get through. The Ghost quarter solves this problem by eventually killing all their lands.

I am unsure about the land count (23 currently + tabernacle), in some games while playtesting I would get stuck on 2-3 lands and unable to win. I was thinking of adding another plains or factory and cutting an angel.

If i had any Ravages of War I would proabably play 5 'geddon effects 3:2 split but for now I am only playing 4 Armageddon.

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Originally Posted by Patrick

I don't think there is a way to solve the questions of "how many cardname should I use?".

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I hear that. Lists tend to have seemingly small variations that will make a big difference, but are really impossible to say whether it is actually good or not, aside from sideboards with lots of jank etc.

@Dino: cutting one angel would probably be a plan. You only run one moat anyway and odds point to drawing an angel before a moat. If you are going to add another land, you might as well go with another ghost quarter because I really don't see the ghost quarter being that useful for crucible tricks when you only run one. I don't mind running singleton cards in any deck, but it is generally best if they are either a "fifth copy" or something to that effect. This could be true for ghost quarter to an extent because you can knock off a land and maybe have your opponent get mana screwed, but this is a bit too conditional for a deck that needs guaranteed effect in what it plays. Ghost quarter is in no way a fourth copy of flagstones because it can not give you a land right after a geddon or after a smoke stack sac.

Stax has no manipulation, so a single copy of moat is extremely doable because it has an awesome effect, but ghost quarter is vastly inferior to just drawing a wasteland a lot of the time.

To reiterate: if you want to run ghost quarter, run two or more or run none...that's what I think anyway.

I also like to have four flagstones even if I am drawing two in an opening hand, due to the fact I have twenty-six lands, I will be fine because I can usually hold off on dropping it and later if I want to thin some land or whatever, I drop the second and there I go.

Twenty-three lands seems a bit low to get a lot of use out of diamonds by the way. The list looks like some extra stuff go put in for lands that got taken out to be honest.

Hi all!

Here is my test-list:

5x Plains
3x Wasteland
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Flagstones of Trokair
3x Mishra's Factory
1x Darksteel Citadel
1x Nomad Stadium

Artifacts:
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
4x Mox Diamond
4x Crucible of Worlds
3x Smokestack

White:
4x Ghostly Prison
4x Armageddon
3x Magus of the Tabernacle
3x Exalted Angel
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant


A question: someone has tested Elspeth? What you think?

Comments please!


Thx for help,

Lammina

First off, I've never liked Nomad Stadium, I think it would be better as a Kor haven. Last tourney I went in, though I didn't do well, Kor haven did hold its own almost every time I drew it. Darksteel Citadel has also never been that helpful to me, I've replaced it with horizon canopy, but might just be better off as another plains, especially with you running 3 angels.

I'm also planning on try the stax list with no angels, might as well try for more lock. I've only tried Elspeth a few times, but not that amazing so far.

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Originally Posted by The Wes

First off, I've never liked Nomad Stadium, I think it would be better as a Kor haven. Last tourney I went in, though I didn't do well, Kor haven did hold its own almost every time I drew it. Darksteel Citadel has also never been that helpful to me, I've replaced it with horizon canopy, but might just be better off as another plains, especially with you running 3 angels.

I'm also planning on try the stax list with no angels, might as well try for more lock. I've only tried Elspeth a few times, but not that amazing so far.

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I has tested play a Angelless Stax, but IMO, this version is very much weak. I never shall mull to make a angel rush, but drop a morph angel in first turn against control decks is amazing!

I tried the no angel version, and, because the deficience the deck in draws question, I waited too long for a finisher.... and lost many games, games thats probably I never lost with angel´s help.

But know, my question persist: Elspeth, use or not?

Thx again.

Cyah!

Yes exalted angel is awesome in 1st turn morph vs any decks but after that shes a 6 to cast 4/5 creature. I guess it would boil down to the players preference on what kind of geddon stax he/she is comfortable in playing with. Yes life link is good but if don't plan on casting exalted angel early with no lock parts out there i think battlegrace angel would be a much better choice for me.

I play with no exalted angel on my geddon stax, yes its slow but its okay for me.

Currently im running 2 elspeth 4 magus and 4 factories as my win condition. Elspeth is a good card but not awesome, if only tezzeret and her had shared there abilities haha.

I don't know for others out there but most of the time in my deck elspeth is more of a utility card, sacrificing tokens, giving +3/+3 to magus or factory, it really depends on the situation. i never even once had the chance to use her last ability but what i like in her is that she draws the attention of your opponent giving you a little breathing room.

I still don't know what to use on the 2 slots on a upcoming legacy tornament at out place. The cards im contemplating with are:

Elspeth - currently using (feels like a utility card than a finisher)
Battlegrace Angel - 4/4 or 5/5 critter with life link and costs 3WW
Wndborn muse - more ghostly prison effect 2/3 flyer critter
Exalted Angel - morph 4/5 cirtter with life link and costs 4WW if hard casted


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Chronosavant has anyone tried using it ? it would be a good permanent removal against your oppoent especially when your smokestack hits 2 counters. With maybe Jalum Tome to help in getting him faster to the graveyard and getting somesort of draw engine too, but what to cut ?

Right, I decided to go to a legacy tourny again and this time to play stax and not get high on weed and stuff and play wildfire. There were 31 people playing including myself so unfort it doesn't count for the DtB stuff

Anyway my list

2 elspeth, knight-errant
3 armageddon
2 ravages of war
4 chalice of the void
4 crucible of worlds
3 smokestack
3 trinisphere
4 ghostly prison
2 moat
2 oblivion ring
4 magus of the tabernacle
3 flagstones of trokair
3 mox diamond
3 mishra's factory
3 wasteland
1 kor haven
7 plains
3 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb

Sideboard
3 Suppression field
3 Tormod's crypt
3 defense grid
2 exalted angel
1 trinisphere
1 oblivion ring
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale
1 gaea's blessing

Normally play aura's instead of the fields but somehow I got persuaded to play the fields again...


Round 1, Fahad MUC (not played by Fahad)

Game 1: He didn't force my T1 trinisphere so manage to lock him turn 4
Game 2: His B2B screws me over while having 2 forces, 3 FoF and 2 counterspells in his hand.
Game 3: I get a Defense grid and Crucible so start pulling tricks by ditching lands and replaying them. In the mean time my mishra's are eating him. When he's on about 8 he is forced to play a sower (leaving 2 lands open) to at least stop me a bit. As my hand included 3 geddons at that time it was easy done.

2-0

Round 2, Survival Rock

Game 1: JUDGE SPOIL! giving a gameloss to my oppenent for illegal decklist.
Game 2: She mulligans to 5 and keeps a crap hand, first thing she played was a 0/1 tarmogoyf on turn 3. In the mean time I'm playing my stuff like chalice, CoW and that kind of stuff. Unfort she finds a awefull lot of land + shriekmaw for my magus so she can go on the beat with her 2/3 tarmogoyf and loxodon hierarch, when I'm at 8 i decide to play a geddon with a 3sphere, chalice @1, smokestack @ 1 and CoW. I fetched a plains from my graveyard. In her turn she plays a land and kicks me to 1 (goyf was now 3/4). My turn I sacrifice my chalice, throw the smoker to 2 and draw a wasteland from the top. Thus wasting her bayou and force her to sac both tarmogoyf and hierarch in her upkeep. Now I had a wastelock so my worries were over. sacrificed oblivion ring (on deed) and smoker and build back my land while maintaining a wastelock. When I drop Elspeth she scoops.


2-0

Round 3, Fahad MUC (Played by Fahad)

Game 1: He keeps pulling forces and counterspells out of his ass and FoFs into retarded cards.

Game 2: he didn't find his fourth land so when I started throwing Trinispheres en defense grids followed by geddons I was a matter of time. His hand included 4 Fof and 3 sowers. EEK!

Game 3: He again started pulling counterspell out of his ass but I kept getting goodstuff from the top so he was busy trying to counter those. Unfort he gets 2 creatures, a sower and a kira which are annoying to get rid of due to the declaration of naught naming geddon (already played 1 ravages). I'm forced to double oblivion ring the sower when I'm on about 8, If he didn't have another sower Magus + mishra + elspeth would've been able to kill him in 3 turns but he drew + played another sower killing my hopes.

2-1

Round 4, Mono Red Roblins

This guy is a close friend of mine, he knows I'm in favour so he prays for godly intervention.

Game 1: GODLY INTERVENTION: mulligans to 5, keeping absolute crap. Lackey gets warchief in play, he cast 1 piley and 1 fanatic. He still has 3 land though. I couldn't play a prison yet. He kicks me to almost oblivion (kept 5 of something) and play a prison.
He attacks with lackey, throws a siege gang in play and he shoots me down next turn.

Game 2: My hand involved 2 prison, 1 moat and 1 oblivion ring and enough land to support this. He never had a chance.

Game 3: Almost closest game I've had against goblins EVER. He had 3 lands out and a hell lot of goblins. I had a prison out but he had 4 lands and I was on 6 (2 pileys). Only option to even think about winning was to rip a magus of the top. Seeing we both were having a hell of a time we slammed the card on the table, followed by a HUGE scream from his side as it was a magus. Game resolves very fast in my favour after that.

3-1

Round 5, Jeroen Shaffhausen

ID, it could've been a bit tricky for him but he got in as the number 8 luckily.


3-1-1

Means I'm going Top 8, I went in as 5th so my opponent was number 4, Bagus Bender

T8 QF Bagus Bender, Specterchant landstill

SPOILER: Both games were omgwtf boring so I'm not ganne write a ull log just simpel things

Game 1: he drops scpeter + counterspell and a standstill soon after that. We go into draw, land go actions. However I had mishra's so starting attacking.
He broke his own standstill in his turn (wha?) and played a crucible (wasteland in the Yard). After this he countered everything I got, wastelanded the crap out of me and dropped a scepter + chant.

Game 2: T2 scepter + DISenchant on it sort of made me want to SCREAM. Which I did giving me a few wierd faces. This game was so retardly long because SOMEONE didn't use his freaking EE to blow my chalice to enable his second scepter inprinting fire/ice. Even though he could recur his EE with his academy ruins he didn't freaking use it for 15 turns or so. Instead he waited till he got a scepter + chant. When he got that down without a kill I was as polite to scoop.

Yay ended 5/8 so at least got my entree fee + a small bonus back in the form of fetch.

Things to rest to the deck
Elspeth is pretty good and distracts people a LOT. Think I'll keep it in here for now.
Suppression fields are so out so I can go back to playing aura's. Preventing stuff from being PLAYED is way better than prevent a source from going active. Also the disenchant bonus for the extra W is something I gladly accept

Unfort I didn't need the blessing but I feared a decent ammount of painter stuff.

I've been toying with the sideboard in response to a huge problem my Stax list has been having. In the local metagame, one of my good friends is absolutely feared with his Survival of the Fittest deck. He prizes out almost every week because he's been playing the deck for what seems like forever, and he's just a really good player.

The big problem is that without a nuts first hand (I'm talking Turn 1 Crucible, Turn 2 Trinisphere or Chalice at 1 ((for AEther Vial)) and turn Geddon) he always wins. Cabal Therapy combined with Birds of Paradise almost always takes away my Armageddon (which can singlehandedly win the game). By the time I've dug to another Geddon effect or anything relevant he's already clogged up the board with things like Bone Shredder, Harmonic Sliver, Loxodon Hierarch etc. The survival toolbox is bonkers against Stax, and with the help of AEther Vial and Rofellos he can pour permanents out until Smokestack hurts me far more than him.

I previously had Oblivion Ring brought in, as well as Damping Matrix just to deal with Vial and some other things, O-Ring can just as easily take out a Survival and buy some time. Aura of Silence also comes in for the same reasons, while it can also kill a Recurring Nightmare sometimes. I've been told to bring in Sphere of Resistance, to try and slow the deck down and buy time to draw into Armageddon. The last slot in my sideboard has been Karmic Justice for quite some time, but aside from Pernicious Deed I almost never use the card.

My proposed solution is Humility. Aside from the frustrating rules discrepancies Humility causes, it's a great card. Humility is good in other matchups (Goblins but who cares, Affinity, Zoo, Dragon Stompy, blah blah), but I'm mostly concerned with it against decks like Survival that have creatures with comes-into-play effects to get their strategies on-line. Trinket Mage also springs to mind here.

I only have 1 Humility right now so it's not going to yield accurate results when I play it. What do you guys think, is Humility a viable choice in a sideboard or is it unnecessary creature control in an already creature unfriendly deck?

I'm not a regular on this thread/deck but playing Survival I can tell Humility is like _the_ #1 card to shut down the deck.

1 card, 2 words: Suppression Field.

The obvious problem with Humility is the double white and the 4 mana: it simply isn't fast. It's also not a very versatile card; Suppression Field also denies his Vial, Fetchland, Wasteland, Volrath's Stronghold...basically the lot.

Pithing Needle would also help; not exactly synergistic with Chalices, but good nonetheless.

I think pithing needle would do a better job, Although suppression fields are very good at delaying survival as well..

But needle doesn't allow you to play the turn 1 chalice at 1 route (on the play) to stop birds and other nonsense, ontop of it only shutting down 1 card. Supression Field may not be a flat out "you cannot activate survival" but it also slows down some of their other tricks aswell.

On a different note: I've been trying out Elspeth and it is sort of weird. Not bad necessesarily because they got put in the slots angels would normally fill; just different. They allow me to kill as quickly as an angel, but also are a good back up for feeding stacks too if they don't get taken out by my opponent asap. I still haven't really formulated an actual opinion, but I think in theory, they should fit into the deck better than angel because they essentially fill the same purpose with some added utility. I think I am just mostly attached to angels.

Does survival really have a lot of 1 casting cost nonsense that is actually a threat? I was thinking chalice at 2 is more important than 1. Chalice won't always be in your opening hand as well so pithing needle would still be a good option. I don't have much experience with survival decks though, so I won't even rub it in.

Elspeth does get a lot of attention it seems. And he may work for some, and for others he may not.One thing is for sure, when elspeth is down, anyone would want elspeth taken out as fast as possible. As for me, I'm sticking to angels for now.

survival also runs thoughtseize en cabal therapy, I think those 2 could be rather annoying

Playtesting is being weird on mws(more so than usual) because I seem to have worse luck with my Elspeth build...which defies logic, but whatever. I'll just chalk it up as dumb luck.

So far results show that Elspeth will kill my opponent just as quickly and serves stack really well, just as I (and numerous others) figured in theory. One thing that has come as a disappointment is that there have been a few times that I would have much rather have just had a 4/5 flying chick with spirit link.

Everything that I know about theory points towards Elspeth, but results are sort of skewed between her and the angel.

This probably seems ridiculous when one considers that several notable individuals don't run either in their builds.

On a more retarded cool things note: I managed to get the big ability of Elspeth off against 4c LS and it was hilarious and completely win-more. It apparently coaxed him into scooping earlier though because he was sitting on a swamp and island and was holding an EE. That didn't matter though because I had an extra geddon in my hand as well as two other crucibles, but it was still funny to pull of. After scooping he flipped his next draw and it was an island XD

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Originally Posted by Mordel

Playtesting is being weird on mws(more so than usual) because I seem to have worse luck with my Elspeth build...which defies logic, but whatever. I'll just chalk it up as dumb luck.

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Well, according to my logic Elspeth sucks, so you can also simply conclude I'm right :wink: