so what can this deck do to answer that then? I dont see why this deck is going to be dead now, because some cards were printed. I mean, it was the same for Survival before Needle was printed.
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so what can this deck do to answer that then? I dont see why this deck is going to be dead now, because some cards were printed. I mean, it was the same for Survival before Needle was printed.
You can still win even if they have a Grace in hand but it's still tough. As long as they don't have an untapped Bird, you can Turnabout them during their turn, forcing them to play their Grace (if they don't, then win). Then combo off during your turn and Stroke them while they're tapped out.
umm... I suppose with all that momentum left, you stroke them again on your turn with the help of Flash of Insight and Cunning Wish?Quote:
Originally Posted by JZ23
I guess the worst case scenario is that you don't know they have Angel's Grace until you Freeze them, and flip one into the graveyard between Blessings. In that situation, you have to figure out whether or not they are actually holding a copy of the card, since casting a lethal Stroke right into a Grace is probably going to be pretty bad, as LegoMan pointed out.
However, even that far into the combo, you can probably just Stroke yourself for 10-20 cards or so and then go off on a Meditate turn, Turnabouting the opponent's creatures/lands as needed.
Of course, if you know about Grace before you start going off, you can preempt it with Turnabout. I think the biggest effect the card will have on Solidarity is to make Peek more important than it already was against white decks.
That seems fine, but it makes Reset less useful in that scenario. Angel's Grace doesn't make Solidarity dead by any means. It is just simply a speed bump that we have to drive over. It is annoying yes, especially with Blessing, but it doesn't make us auto-lose. If we can just all play heads up and predict if they run Angel's Grace/Peek into it, we should be fine. Mainly the players with the least information on their opponents are going to be the ones that will struggle the most. Peek= Incredible.Quote:
Originally Posted by JZ23
I have a question for you guys. Something that came up in my last tournament (which I won). In the semi finals I had to play against a landstill deck playing rule of law AND arcane laboratory in the sideboard. First game I win rather easily.
Second game I can't avoid having an arcane lab on the table (he countered my force). Altough I was able to play cunning wish for chain of vapor, peek in the next turn and then vapor in his turn(because he had no counters and didn't draw one obviously), after him trying to resolve a meddling mage. I think we can agree that I was very lucky to have won that game.
The question is because in two weeks there are belgian nationals if it would be feasible to put a wipe away in the sideboard. My main reason would be because there are two landstill decks that make top 4 virtually every time. If yes what card would be best to replace?
I am fully aware that I still need to resolve a cunning wish if I let it in my sideboard and that a good landstill player counters the wish (I suppose). But since I am known for playing solidarity without wipe away I am quite sure they might let it by.
Suggestions?
What is your boarding plan against landstill? I bring in all my twincasts and brainfreezes. But I am not sure if I side out correctly. In the second game I went off in my own turn so I was quite happy having turnabouts.
When you need bounce, you should bring some in second game keeping only single on the wishboard at max. I think Wipe Away is the perfect candidate to bring in from the SB after game 1 as it's indeed uncounterable. I tend to agree with your SB-plan though, Twincasts and Brain Freezes help fight the counterwars and allow you to fight through Stifles more effectively.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reagens
I found the 4th Freeze unuseful, so i cut it for Wipe Away:
Noone is going to side in stifle.
Vs landstill when you combo out you usually have all the time in the world to combo. If you have 8 lands you don't fear counter on high tide/untap effects and usually have a Flash of Insight in grave. You can't fizzle, because there are almost no more lands in your deck and you have a great hand. If you have to combo on turn 4-5 they're probably tapped out to play something nasty, so you fear less counters/stifle.
So.. stifle is not an issue. Well, not when it targets Brain Freeze. I never needed to side in a 3rd or 4th stifle against Landstill (and it's quite present in my meta).
My side at the moment is Deep6er's -1 Freeze -1 Rebuild +2 Wipe Away
(lack of rebuild is a metagame call: no Trinis/chalices in my meta but Mage is everywhere)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenOne
Cutting the 4th Brainfreeze is a mistake in my opinion. It doesn't look like you would ever need 2 in the board, but trust me, it helps ALOT against Thresh, and the Mirror. Both of which, you need to do well in in order to succeed in major tournaments. That 4th brainfreeze is one more freeze you can cast against thresh when you have 6 or 7 spells played. Often times against thresh, you end up playing some spells and drawing in counters, then you double freeze them FTW. The loss of a Brainfreeze doesn't look horrible on paper, but you will miss it in the matches where it is relevant.
I have to agree with nantuko shady that cutting the 4th brain freeze would be a mistake. The point is that altough you have lots and lots of time against landstill you have to resolve a bounce spell on their arcane lab or rule of law to combo.
As I said I am convinced that they might let cunning wish by because they are sure to counter the bounce spell itself.
The question is. In a metagame where landstill does well (actually very well), do you think it will be worth to sacrifice a sideboard slot to wipe away or do I count on the resilience of the deck (i.e. is turnabouting their lands eot sufficient to draw out enough counters) ?
If it would be feasible to play wipe away. Which card would be cut. Brain freeze is not an option because of the control match-up.
I just wish to point out that they'll fall for that at most once. After that, they'll aim their counters at your wishes (or if they happen to read this thread, they'll do it anyways). That's why I think it should be brought in rather than kept on the SB. As for the slots, most SBs have 2-3 bounce-slots, I'd use 2 of the 3 for Wipe Aways and one for Chain of Vapors (Wipe Away bounces Chalice pretty easily too).Quote:
Originally Posted by Reagens
The problem with threshold is that i cannot resolve a Tide. If i resolve tide then i can combo out easily and play around counters. But tide doesn't resolve because there's a mage or there are counters. So, without a resolved tide, how many times do you have 4 mana and 7 storm?Quote:
Originally Posted by NANTUKO_SHADY
Consider that players I'm playing with stop playing draw spells during their turn after 3rd turn, fearing combo in response. Play MD stifle, so they got some sort of LD and disruption to the double freeze plan.
What we are talking are 2 completely different strategies, it's not just 1 slot difference. Yours is to short combo (counterwar then 2xFreeze). Mine is to outcombo (be sure to eliminate MM problem and your chances to outcombo his counters are high).
Mirror is non-existent at the moment here. It happened me once in the last 8 tournaments.Quote:
Originally Posted by NANTUKO_SHADY
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenOne
Ok fair enough, I just believe that the 4th Brainfreeze will be overall, a lot more useful and versatile than the 1x Wipe away. By no means is Wipe away a bad card, I am just in favor of the 4th Brainfreeze. The main reason being is that I will find myself boarding in the 4th Brainfreeze more often than myself ever boarding in Wipe away. I see your point though.
So now this thread is about 47 pages long and the first page is so horribly outdated it's not even funny. Could someone please do an update and post a recent list somewhere where it is easy to find? (I found Deep6er's current list 1 or 2 pages back but a hint at the first page could help^^) Also I'm interested in some matchup analysis and sideboard strategies.
Another point, I saw a list with 4 Disrupt and only 1 Twincast in the board so I'm curious are there matchups where boarding in Disrupts is better than having Twincasts? Both are obviously good against opposing counters but one is good against random spells the opponent might play (say Armageddon) and the other helps you combo out easier. Disrupt can act as another weak Opt or Peek but for one more blue mana Twincast can be every spell in your deck.
Disrupt has a slight edge when playing against combo like IGGy but Twincast is just more powerful overall.
So are there metas where Disrupt is playable in the sideboard and 1-2 Twincasts are enough?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverdragon
One interesting thing to note is that I didn't actually post in this thread for awhile, I feel no compunction to update the front page. Also, I'm lazy as hell. I guess that's the biggest deterrent to updating, although it is a good idea.
Anyway, couple of things to mention. Disrupt sucks. Seriously. I found that if you just side in the 4th Meditate, your odds against Deadguy and Truffle Shuffle become about the same as if you were boarding Disrupt. The Twincast plan is absolutely awesome, however, it can only work in certain metagames.
@Nantuko Shady/Green One: Green One's board plan is perfectly justifiable given what he's told us about his metagame. In fact, his board plan caused me to rethink the viability of Wipe Away. I've now come to the conclusion that the board should be revamped to include Wipe Away, but it should be noted that I've also come to the conclusion that Wipe Away will only be good in MULTIPLES.
On to another topic.
@Silverdragon: Matchup analysis should really be confined to either general strategies or the top tier. One of the weird things about Legacy is the ABNORMALLY high amount of random decks. Thus, matchup analysis is only relevant in a generic sense as many of the decks you play against will only loosely share strategies, thus nullifying any set rules for playing certain matchups. Understand?
@Anybody who has a Star City Games Forum Account: If you guys could direct some of those people to this thread, that might clarify some of their confusion. Even though I lurk on those forums (and TMD) I refuse to set up another forum account. If you don't want to, I completely understand.
@Everybody: Before the end of this year, I should be able to writeup a reasonably good overview of matchups and sideboarding strategies from my point of view. If people are interested, I could collaborate with Ewokslayer to make sure it covers his point of view as well. I plan to include addendums from Krieger and possibly Herbig (if he'd just stop the babykilling). I'd like to kind of get a gauge for how many people are interested in this though. So, if you're interested, drop me a line here, or (if this mailbox is full) at bjarxn@hotmail.com. Preferably try the source first, and hotmail as a last resort as I check my hotmail MUCH less frequently.
Another problem I had with short combo is that every UGw deck is going to side Jotun Grunt for Stp.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenOne
@Deep6er= I believe that a giant collaboration of work from all of the Solidarity masters would be an excellent idea. Too many people are too lazy to check back on previous pages of this thread, and in fact, no true full break-down of Solidarity has been done yet on the source. Not to mention, insight from all of the different Solidarity players would be excellent. If you need any tips on how to misplay, then well you can reach me here. I'm sure I could help you out. :laugh:
Eh. Maybe I can rewrite the new Solidarity thread, seeing as I still play the deck. But a couple post ago, people said that a lot of people run solidarity in major tournaments. The fact is that they don't. It's a scary deck to face against, though. That is why it's a Deck to Beat, especially because of it's resiliance to haterade.
@ Disrupt suckage:
I agree. Remand is almost always more useful in these matchups anyhow. That turn you buy with bouncing their turn 2 Hymn to their hand is priceless.
@ Wipe Away:
Friggin badass. I find it is a huge boon in so many matchups it's not funny. "Oh, your going to mage my spell I need. I don't want him out anymore right now." "Shit, Arcane Lab is back in your hand", and as always, the play of just bouncing a chalice for 1 or 2 is equally as impressive.
I did some testing yesterday against Hanni Fish. And the results were awful. I think we played 15 games and I won maybe 1 or 2.
I think with some more decent draws I would have been able to win 4 but not much more. The combination of meddling mage, confidant, stifle and his counters made it virtually impossible for me to get anywhere. Because I was virtually never able to get a high tide through his counterwall the plan of playing litlle freezes did very little for me.
Any suggestions or experiences from you guys?
Hanni Fish isn't such a big deal. Their clock is awful and Meditate is ridiculous. Remand is the nuts against them (don't remand their spells) and Flash kills Grunt (+ Card Advantage too!). Grunt is their biggest creature and you have two spells that auto kill him and draw you a good card. Seems fair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reagens