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Regarding Helix vs. Chain Lightning in general. I was actually considering going to 4 Chain and 2 Helix in order to be able to almost completely run on 1 forest and 1 mountain.
I feel like zoo is stronger than Tarmoburn but I almost like to turn into it in the face of a deck like Tempo Thresh.
Regarding: Fetch vs. Plateau I think you are right in saying it is preference. I like having at least 1 use out of my land instead of having to worry about stifle even more.
In my experience the first land I fetch in face of wastelands is a basic, the second land is almost always a dual (sometimes fetching a basic is a possibility also but it depends on the hand). And usually you don't really have to play a burn spell on turn 2. And like I said before, I don't like the fact that Chain is a sorcery.
But from your point of view you're right. I just don't feel I need the deck to be able to play from a mountain and forest. But If I'm right Threshold decks are much more popular in Germany/Austria than in Holland so that's probably why you feel the way you feel about the deck.
I don't worry about Stifle that much myself. I don't come across them often over here. I actually can't remember the last time I encountered them. To me the possibility to search for a basic plains (or mountain) prevails most times.
Interesting. In the face of non-recurring wastelands I always fetch taiga, and make my 1 drop (nacatl or kird). When they waste that I go get my Plateau.
Plateau doesn't boost ape ;D
I know, but depending on the situation I'm looking to drop my lavamancer or start to let removal fly to clear the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigar
But if you go Taiga, Kird Ape (with no nacatl in your opening hand) and they waste your Taiga and you play a Plateau, your Kird Ape is 1/1. If I do have a Nacatl in my opening hand I usually go Forest, EDIT: Plateau (instead of taiga).
A bit more specific. In game one if I have a 2 land hand I go for a basic, which one depends on my hand. If I have a 3 land hand I usually go Taiga, Plateau. Of course only when the other cards in my hand permit me to.
When it turns out people are playing Wastelands then I go for basics if possible. This means I usually sacrifice a bit of speed because I cannot always play the cards in my hand in the order I would like them to play. But again, only when the other cards in my hand permit me to. Otherwise I take the risk and go for non-basics. It's not like I am going to mulligan if I have a good hand but only non-basics and I know my opponent plays Wastelands.
This is why I prefer more fetch (even if it's only 1), more flexibility in finding the (basic) land I really need.
Yeah that's true I sometimes have a forest which I can't use on turn 2. But a lot of times it's turn 1 nacatl, turn 2 Pridemage which is actually my favorite play. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzykat
Placed 4th. Lost to ANT in the semis. Will post the decklist and the details in the coming days.
@DCTT: Looking forward to it.
So re: Grim Lavamancer, is making it a 4-of a no-brainer? Having more than one seems pretty useless as we don't drop THAT many cards into the yard, and we want to keep some there for Goyf and/or Knight. The only reason for wanting to see more than 1 per game seems to be opposing removal. So is he so much more of a lightning rod than our other critters to warrant running 4 and risk seeing multiples? I've just started testing this deck so my perceptions may be skewed.
multiples just swing for 1 each a turn... that's never bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
In this deck? It kinda is. I mean, I think there are reasons to run 4, including opposing removal, but swinging for 1 a turn is exactly bad when we consider Kird Ape marginal for "only" doing twice as much.
EDIT: Reckless charge, anyone? They were talking about it in Naya Sligh. I don't think we have room, and our critters would probably get more use out of Rancor as they tend to be bigger anyway. Just wondering if anyone has tried it.
ok so run only 1 lavamancer then and hope to draw him..
Ok, does anyone have a constructive reply? Sauce's first attempt was misguided but at least it sounded like he was trying. Now it's just trolling. Again, I'm asking about 3 vs 4, not 1 vs 4.
This is something i would like to get resolved as well. Been Testing 2 Grim Lavamancers, thinking of increasing the number but not sure yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
I waffle between 2 and 3 personally... 4 is too many but 1 isn't nearly enough. I'd wager the best choice is probably meta dependent.
Split top 2 of a 15 man local tourney today... Ran a really weird build. You guys ready for this? ;p
3 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Plateau
3 Taiga
1 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Treetop Village
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Figure of Destiny
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
2 Elspeth
1 Garruk
SB:
3 Krosan Grip
2 Price of Progress
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Gaddock Teeg
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
... Obviously this is not a very normal zoo deck. There were a lot of card choices I've been thinking about lately, just intending to experiment a little, so when I got up this morning I decided to throw caution to the wind and try all the different things at once.
Obviously, Kird Ape is the most lackluster card in the deck, so I was trying to think of good creatures to replace him. The two thoughts I kept coming back to were Nimble Mongoose and Noble Hierarch. However, both created problems. Mongoose desynergized with Lavamancer, and Hierarch kind of begged for bigger spells to play. Well, I figured why not give them a shot and see where it takes me? I knew immediately that the big spell I wanted to play was Elspeth, because she's just ridiculously good. I also added a third knight, because hey, she's awesome too. Lastly a Garruk made his way into the deck since I only have two elspeths but definitely wanted three planeswalkers, and having both walkers in play at the same time would be pretty sexy. Lastly, I needed more than 21 lands to cast the 4 cc spells, so I added two treetops to help fight mana flood. Also, getting creatures with KoTR is awesome.
To accommodate the influx of new cards, lavamancer had to leave, kird ape and 1 FoD left, and I cut the Libraries. I didn't want to cut library, but the walkers pretty much filled the same role (a mid game card advantage engine) and something had to go. I also cut the chain lightnings and 1 lightning helix. Since this build was going to be slower but, generally more powerful, I didn't feel bad losing some burn.
So, I went 3-0-1 in swiss, won my round in top 4 and then split the finals.
Round 1 vs. Joe playing Stax
Game 1 I win the roll and open Nacatl, Pridemage, Goyf, Goyf, Helix, Savannah Fetchland. I play savannah Nacatl go. He plays t1 Trinisphere off mox and tomb, going to 18. I untap, fetch taiga, draw Hierarch, and swing for 3. He untaps, plays a plains, and geddons, going to 13. I rip Plateau off the top and play it, swinging in for 3 again. He plays a crucible of worlds and starts ghost quarter recursion, and mishra's factory recursion, but I get in for 3 once with my nacatl, putting him on 5. I manage to get up to three land and play a noble hierarch. He untaps, replays tomb, and casts Baneslayer angel, going to 3, and I untap and reveal my lightning helix in hand.
SB:-4 Lightning Bolt, -2 Path, -1 FoD, +4 Gaddock Teeg, +3 Krosan Grip
Game 2 he's on the play but we both mull to 6. My six is pretty good, while his is one of those poor stax draws the deck is famous for. He plays t1 Flagstones pass, I play hierarch go. He draws a mox diamond, plays it discard flagstones, and makes chalice at 1. I untap, fetch, play a KoTR, and pass. He misses a land drop and passes without play. I swing for 4 and pass because my hand is nacatl, nacatl, hierarch, bolt, helix. He makes a factory and passes. I swing again, putting him on 12. He finds a plains and makes a windborn muse. I pay to swing again and put him on 8. He makes a chalice at 2. I am sad since I missed my opportunity to use lightning helix. :( I untap and topdeck elspeth, and have been sandbagging the 4th source with which to play her. I do so and make a token. Next turn I jump the token and swing with both, and he chumps the token with muse and the knight with factory. I win the next turn.
2-0, 1-0
Round 2 JT playing Uwb control (Kind of landstillish, but not particularly.)
This is my brother, we decide to draw the round.
2-0, 1-0-1
Round 3 Todd playing Dredge
Game 1 I forget who wins the roll actually, but this was one of the most epic games I think I've ever played, particularly against Dredge. We both stay at 7. I don't think there's any way I can win g1 with this slow ass build of zoo, so I don't bother mulliganing despite my hand being 3 duals, a fetch, a basic, a treetop village, and a wild nacatl. I play nacatl, go. He plays putrid imp and starts dredging. I swing in for 3 and topdeck lightning bolt. He dredges three bridges into his yard via breakthrough and sacks the imp to therapy me. In response I bolt my nacatl, taking out the bridges. He sees my hand is all lands and passes the turn. I topdeck some burn and get my treetop into play while I have helix up. He brings back some ichorids and swings, and I helix one, going to 21 after my fetchlands. I play elspeth and make a token. He brings back 3 ichorids and swings all three at elspeth, and a narcomoeba at me. I don't block and go to 20. Next turn I topdeck Garruk and play him, making a beast. He brings back ichorids and mills his last bridge and swings in, and I trade a beast for an ichorid and take 7, going to 13, and getting rid of the last bridge. He also gets another narcomoeba this turn. I sac some canopies to get extra cards and play out a pridemage and make another beast with garruk, and bolt his zombie token on his next attack and block his ichorids, falling to 8 from the moebas. He plays a putrid imp and sacs the imp and two moebas to get a grave troll with 7 counters. I start begging my deck for a path to exile. I make another beast with Garruk. He attacks with his grave troll and I chump with the beast, and he makes another grave troll for 11 on his turn. I finally topdeck a path to exile so I get one last beast out of garruk and pass the turn. I chump the 7/7 troll with treetop village and path the 11/11 on his attack step. I untap and rip another path and pass the turn back. He brings back an two ichorids and swings in, I path the 7/7, and block an ichorid to fall to 5. He gets the fourth moeba out and I make a chump blocker and fall to 4 from the moeba's attack and block the ichorid. I then topdeck lightning helix. He only has enough black creatures left at this point to bring back 1 ichorid for each of the next two turns, and only has three cards left in his library. So he brings the ichorid back, swings, and I helix it and fall to 7 from the moeba. I then topdeck the last helix in my deck, giving me enough life to survive until he runs out of cards to draw.
SB:-2 Elspeth -1 Garruk -2 KoTR, +2 Relic +1 Crypt +2 STP
G2 he pulls transformational sideboard shenanigans, turning into a painter grindstone deck O.o I open on nacatl, he plays Golgari Thug, I play pridemage and swing, he plays painter and grindstone, I play a Goose and swing for 4, he blocks and activates grindstone on his turn, I shoot the painter in response with pridemage but he mills me for 6 anyway, and I get threshold. I swing in and he blocks one, dropping another painter. When he tries to mill me again I path the painter and swing for the win.
4-0, 2-0-1
Round 4 vs. Dan playing Survival Elves w/Natural Order
I win the roll, make a goose and pass, he makes an elf, I bolt it, he untaps and plays survival, I untap and play pridemage and take it out after swinging. He makes another survival. I drop goyf and nacatl and he plays out a dude to stall and I make KoTR and next turn topdeck a horizon canopy to throw into my yard to make my attack lethal.
SB:-2 Elspeth, -1 Garruk, -2 Helix, -1 KoTR +2 STP +1 Jitte +3 Grip
I considered bringing in Gaddock Teeg here, but ended up decided against it and opted to just try to be faster than him. Not what this build is optimized for, but I figured it was my best way to win.
G2 he mulls to 6 and opens on fetch->taiga elf. I respond with fetch->Savannah Hierarch. He misses his second land drop and plays another mana elf and passes. I make a Goyf and bolt an elf. He plays another mana elf and passes. I play a pridemage and an hierarch, swing for 6, and pass, putting him on 13. He RFGs a spirit guide and summons the almighty hydra. I play another goyf and a Wild Nacatl, presenting lethal if he swings. He plays a viridian zealot and passes back without attacking. I path the zealot and swing with my team, putting him to 4 and losing a goyf to the hydra. He does not topdeck the out he needs and succumbs to my armada.
6-0, 3-0-1
Cut to top 4 at this point, I'm 1st in the swiss standings.
Semi-Finals vs. Martin with UG Madness (!!! Kickin' it oldschool, this guy's got beta trops!)
G1 I keep a Nacatl, Pridemage, path, Elspeth, Elspeth, Plains, Savannah hand. I play t1 Nacatl and topdeck Treetop. He plays an island as says go. I play a new nacatl after attack, which he forces, and lay a treetop village. He plays a trop and passes. I attack with nacatl and treetop and pass, laying my plains. He intuitions for wonder, roar of the wurm, and AK. I give him wonder. He plays wild mongrel. I path it, which he circular logics for 2, which I pay and then swing with my nacatl. At this point my hand is bolt, bolt, helix, Elspeth Elspeth, meaning I can't cast anything in my hand. He plays another mongrel and I continue to topdeck blanks. He starts making wurm tokens and I eventually die, never drawing a 4th land or a red source.
SB:+2 STP, +1 Jitte, -1 Bolt -1 Helix -1 Forest
G2 I keep a really fast hand and play nacatl, hierarch + goose, KoTR, and just run him over.
G3 I keep another fast hand and play out multiple hierarchs and a Pridemage, swinging for huge chunks with a goyf at 6/7 due to exalted, right passed his 6/6 wurm token. I play a KoTR and play Elspeth to jump it, sealing his fate.
8-1, 4-0-1
At this point Dan, the Survival Elves player, and I split the finals, each getting three booster packs. Even though I had a pretty good matchup for the finals, I felt like going home and didn't really want to play any more magic for the day.
So, with a tournament now under my belt with this build, I do have a couple things to say about it. First of all, Mongoose was sick every time I drew it. I honestly liked it more than lavamancer, and this wasn't even a build optimized to utilize him since I had a huge permanent count. He might not be as good in a faster build, but since this build was a little slower anyway I didn't mind waiting a bit longer to get him to 3/3 status.
Hierarch was bonkers. This guy is incredible. I was so happy every time I got to open on him, the extra mana he gives you makes it much easier to apply early pressure and keep removal up, or get faster activations out of pridemages when you need to quickly answer problems, and the 8 pack of exalted creatures was a huge advantage. Made swinging into blockers entirely fearless, which was fun.
Elspeth was, as expected, very good every time I played her. I usually just made a token and then pumped it each turn, but there were a few points where I jumped a KoTR for massive damage, and those times were pretty sweet. Garruk only got into play against Dredge, which honestly made no sense, but he was pretty phenomenal when he did there, buying me 3 whole turns to topdeck other spells. Without him I most likely would have lost. The treetops were nice to have, and I did attack/block with them a few times throughout the day, though I never fetched one with KoTR. I did fetch horizon canopies a few times, so I'm glad I had two of those.
On reflection, this build would have been better with STP than Path since I'm looking to win the game more with card quality than blitzkrieg speed.
Overall, this was a very fun experiment. The deck, while slower, is a lot more powerful. Against basically anything that isn't Tendrils, you have a very good game plan of out-qualitying them on every card, and the planeswalkers have huge utility by allowing you multiple types of threats in the mid game. I did miss library, but this build really didn't need it.
I don't think I'd take this list to a more competitive tournament yet, but it was a ton of fun to play today and definitely got me out of my funk with zoo. I was really starting to get bored with the deck, and today definitely turned that around. My creative juices are definitely flowing now, and I'm gonna put some serious thought into how I'm gonna get hierarch into my normal list now ;p
Thanks for reading
--hungryLIKEALION
Edit//About lavamancers, I've been running 3 in my normal build since the beginning of time and have always liked that number. You can reliably draw one, and when they choose to use their removal on it instead of my other creatures I usually just shrug and say 'okay' if I don't have a second. Not having a lavamancer on the table isn't a death sentence, so when he gets removed but a goyf or KoTR lives I'm usually fine with it.
Edit2//Also, Reckless Charge is awesome, but I usually only play it as a 1 of when I play it, 2 at most, because drawing multiples in the first few turns is a nightmare. You also want to run at least a full set of nacatls and apes if you're going to run it, if not more 2 power 1 drops, so you can go t1 cat/ape t2 cat/ape+charge as often as possible. It's good even in the mid game though if you want to screw up their blocking math, or just get an extra six damage out of one card.
I really dont like the Kird Apes so. Been looking at replacements as well.
How was Nimble Mongoose for you without the Cantrips?
Possible a heavy burn / Fetch land version could take advantech of the Threshold or is 7 card to the graveyard to much of a hassle.
There's this other... interesting... build which also uses Hierarchs.
Heh, cute. I was wondering what Grove was doing there until I saw Punishing Fire. I wonder how well that works... Lavamancer just seems so much simpler.
EDIT: Why the hell not just use Lavamancer, Taiga, and Path? Unless you're expecting to recur multiple Fires, this seems way too slow. Unfortunately, the deck has no way to fetch and recur multiple Fires.
So heres my report. Like I said earlier, I placed 4th in a local yearend Legacy tournament losing to ANT in the semis. There were 64 players all in all. Id like to start with my decklist.
Lands
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Savannah
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
20
Creatures
3 Figure of Destiny
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kird Ape4
Wild Nacatl
24
Non-creatures
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library
16
Sideboard
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Firespout
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Red Elem Blast
3 Krosan Grip
Id like to break down the discussion into two: first the decklist, and second, the matchups.
Decklist
Last November, I played Zoo for the first time in my life having jumped from almost all decks in the format specifically Burn, LED and non-LED Ghast-powered Dredge, Merfolk, Goblins (RW and RB). I had a dismal performance in that November tournament managing only 1-5 (6 rounds) placing dead-last in a field of 62 players-- the decklist and the matchups in that tourney was I think in pages 80's or earlier 90's of this thread. So it was really really disappointing. Adding insult to injury was that one Zoo made the top 8. So with the help of you guys in here I submitted the deklist that I was planning to play in the year-end tournament and I received mostly negative reviews which I took positively. So I edited the deck and hence the decklist above.
Lands
I was really really torn between another basic Mountain and a Savannah but I decided to stick with Savannah. With regards to Canopy in general, the result was "okay." Okay in the sense that there was no point in that I said that "I wish I just had one of this" but I must admit that the "lose-life" and the disynergy with Apes and Nacatls was there. WIth regards to the "card-draw" ability of the Canopy, I dint come to the point that I sac-ed it and I topdecked a game-changing spell. I would not elaborate further on the lands. I know its a complicated (but crucial) thing for Zoo but I just wanna share the other parts of the deck.
Creatures
My November list didnt ran Figure but having read Lion's comments on FOD I started giving it a try. Well, it worked so well for me. I had consistent T1 FoD, T2 Ape and swing with FOD for two something like that. Also managed to pump it to 4/4 several times. My opponents were also paranoid with FOD that almost all their removals were focused on him so with that I can play Mancers without hesitaton. I ran 1 Thoctar during my old list but I decided to cut it based on the comments that I have received. I wasnt able to find an additional Reliquary in time so I just had two. KoTR worked so so well for me. I was feeding my Goyfs for my opponents removal until I play my KoTR which most of the case was bigger than Goyf. It also negates the opposing players Goyf in the sense that a 4/5 Goyf can never kill a 5/5 Knight.
Non-creatures
It was funny I planned on having just 3 Chain Lightnings but upon my arrival at the tournament venue, I realized I had four! LOL. Dint have the time to re-edit the deck so 4 Chains stayed. The Chains were perfect I must say. The Libraries were also insane! IMBA! I was really thinking of cutting it in place of two maindeck Teegs since I was preparing for Dredge until Lion said that I musnt and instead cut either a burn or another crit (am I right Mr. Lion?).The Libraries were crucial because I drew "game-changing" and also "game-winning" spells ie Path, Chains, Bolts etc. Regarding the Helix, I decided to cut it to two because I dont want to see 2 in my opening hand and I never regretted it.
Sideboard
The Rav Traps and the Relics and Tormod's are for obvious reasons as with the others. The QUESTION MARK in here would be the Firespouts. Well, almost all said that FSpout in the main was stupid but I almost always say that "Zoo's creatures are a lot bigger end-game than most aggro decks." I didnt mind trading my 3 creatures for an opponents 4 or five if it meant the only way-out if I were to be out-aggroed. Besides, by common sense, you will not cst the Spouts if you knew that you have a huge board presence. The call was a bit right IMHO. There were plenty of Goblins in that tournament so I think the Spout was the right call.
I essentially based this assumption on my playtesting with my brother and his BR Gobs. My experience playing the BR build is that is almost always beats Zoo esp in the SB after the darn Perishes have been sided in. Specifically, the BR build that my brother ran had Weirdings, Smothers, Bolts and Gempalms. Almost always, we trade removals for our creatures but the HUGE HUGE HUGE difference was a resolved Goblin Ringleader which allowed him to draw Goblin threats whilst the most I can top-deck is an Ape, or Nacatl since the fatties were long gone in the first place.I didnt have Teegs or Canonist in the SB. Honestly, I did not regret it until the semis match-up with ANT. But come to think of it, the Spouts helped me get to top 8 (and top 4) but did not against ANT. So I was wondering, would I get to top 8 or Top 4 if I had the Teegs or Canonists? The Spouts btw were also final minute-changes in place of 2 Pyro Pillars (which could have won me the game against ANT in the semis).
The match-ups
R1: Slivers
G1: I play and cast an Ape and pass. His turn he plays Vial and passes. My 2nd T I play another Ape and then I swing. His next turn he plays a Crystalline Sliver OMFG in my hand I see 2 PTEs and a Bolt. My next tuirn I try to attack the Crystalline but he Vials that +1/+1 White sliver I forgot the name and my Apes die. Next turn he drops a Winged Sliver and a Muscle Sliver and I scoop.
G2: He tries to counter everything which gave me a sign that he aint got no Slivers which. Luckily I dint have much removals my hand was filled with creatures so I beat him down for the win.
G3: Same as G2
1-0
R2: BGW Rock
G1: Classic Rock turn Ritual for Hymn and Thoughtseize. He takes out 2 Plateaus and a Goyf. I Dint draw a land the next turn. His next turn he Dark Rituals again and Hymns again and he casts a Goyf. He beats me down and I cant recover so I scoop so I have more time G2 and G3.
G2: Nacatl and Ape beatdown. I burn him and Paths his Goyfs and Reliquaries. I win.
G3: He managed to Vindicate my land but the moment I hit two mana, I immediately cast Library which proved crucial with him having a KoTR in play. I Libraried and saw 2 PTEs which I used to hit the Knight. He plays a Goyf and passes. I Library a PTE Land and a Knight. I take 4, take the PTE and the Knight and play her. On his turn he tries to swing with his Goyf but I hit it with a PTE. My turn I Library a Goyf and another PTE (OMFG). I beat him down with Knight and Goyf with a PTE and K Grip backup.
2-0
R3: UWR Stax
G1: He goes off first and plays a Welder. I Chain it in my turn. He passes. I play an APe and a Nacatl and pass. He plays a CoW and passes. I managed to get him to 8 until he Geddons which made my Ape and Nacatl 1/1. I had no more lands and he resolves Welder. He Welds for Inkwell and I scoop.
G2: He casts a T1 Chalice which delayed me until I Grip it. He casts Razormane Masticore with me having a 4/4 FoD in play. He hits the FoD with the Mssticore's 3 damage and uses Barbarian Ring. He plays CoW and recurs the RIng and beat me down with the Masticore.
2-1
R4: Pro-Bant
G1: He goes first and plays a N. Hierarch which got me thinking. realizing that the Hierarch would do nasty things, I Chained it and he does not get the T2 Rhox War Monk. He managed to get another N. Hieararch with a RWM. I cast a Goyf which he Forces using Progenitus which made me nearly jump off my seat. I managed to PTE a Monk but he cast a Goyf. On my turn I cast my own Goyf and I remembered having an Ape a Nacatl and a 2/2 FOD while he has a RWM a Goyf and a Hierarch. I pass. He swings his Goyf with Exalted so I take it. He Natural Orders for another Goyf just so he has a blocker. I the cast Chain on the Goyf before combat and combat begins. Cant remember what happened I just remembered that after that a Nacatl and a Knight remain in my zone while he had a RWM and another Goyf in play. In his turn I PTE his Goyf hes left with RWM. He cant find answers and I win.
G2: Sylvan was huge. He was able to cast a Counterbalance while I beat him with Apes and Nacatls. I play Knight nad Mancer and he reveals Daze in the CBlance and I immediately Red Elem Blast the CBlance. I cast a Goyf and swing with Ape, Nacatls and Knight and shoot for two using the Mancers. He cant recover and I win.
3-1
R5: UGR Fae
G1: Ape Nacatl sweet. I resolve a Mancer. I swing and Burn and I win.
G2: I had a huge misplay I cant remember it because it was really really disgusting. Caused me the game. I lose and off to G3.
G3: Apes, Nacatls again. I path his Goyf. I cast my own. I swing and burn.
4-1
R6: We ID. But I think he was playing Dredge. Yikes.After Swiss I was number 7. The guy I ID'd was pushed off the Top 8. Not my fault, he said he wanted his teammate in the T8.
Top 8 vs Mono Red
G1: He plays a Lackey and I chain it on my turn. Hes stuck at two lands and hes only got a Piledriver. I got FOD, Ape and Nacatl. I swing, swing swing and win!
G2: He plays land and Vial and passes. I play an FOD. His T2 he passes hes got no land drop. Judge warns me due to some misplaced card, game was delayed for 10 minutes and during his turn he Vials an Instigator which I Bolt end-turn. My T3 I was swinging with Ape and FOD and at three mana I Grip his Vial and he scoops.
Semis vs ANT
G1: He goes off T2 w/o Ad-Naus and with the help of Ill-Gotten Gains.
G2: I had no SB so obviously I was drawing dead. I kept on mulling with multiple burn spells bec my hands were only had 1 burn spell. I mull to three with Plat Chain and Bolt, LOL. I play first I Chain. My second Turn I pass. He Ad-Naus but its not withing my L.Bolt reach. I lose.Well thats about it! Managed to land 4th and got only a Senseis FTV. The Finals btw was ANT and UGR Fae (not the same player). If I had get past the AnT, I like my chances against the UGR Fae in the Finals. First prize was Volcanic Island.
The Finalists dint play, they just split the prize due to fatigue or something and the fact that theyre friends.This tournament was also a form of vindication for me. During that November tournament wherein I had a 1-5 record, I placed dead last!!! Yes, DEAD LAST in the rankings! And a month before, a was 4th overall.
I just realized after the tournament that I had the chance of doing (what I think) what no Magic player has ever done before--- Win it all after getting last place in a Legacy tourney a month before (November) in the same venue, with virtually the same deck and with the same number of players!Props to my teammates for the rigorous playtests, to my brothers (the other was playing BR Gobs the other was playing MonoU Merfolk) and the people in the Zoo forum!
Where do I go from here? Well, honestly im gonna try playing Rock but I still love Zoo and would obvioulsy play it again esp in big-event Legacy tournaments!
Thanks for the report, and congrats! I was about to ask if you've thought about dropping Ape, since he's generally considered the worst 1-drop we have. However, from your reports he seemed to be consistently awesome. Was the power of 2 not an issue as the game went into turn 3+?
Other questions: What would you have taken out if you had the third Knight? How often did opponents blow up your libraries, given that they're your only ench/art?
Especially since you run Apes and Libraries, I think cutting the canopies may be worth a shot.
I tried the Lynx but did not like it. Im a fan of the one-drop so IDK if id drop the Apes really. The power 3 was not an issue I swing him regardless and I Bolt the opponets bigger creatures. Even if it is 2-1 its fine with me as long as a fatty gets out of the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
-1 Chain + 1 Knight given the chance.
Re the Libraries. They didnt blow the Library, maybe they underestimated the card :laugh:
Maybe id try cutting the 1 Canopy for another Mesa. IDK maybe. Ill try.
I can see Canopy being cut in a meta without land destruction, but where I play about half the games I see Wasteland or Stifle, and Sinkhole is played by a dedicated few (Eva Green got a bone thrown its way with Nighthawk). So many games I would've had to mull a 1-lander but the Canopy saved it. Often my white source gets wasted and I topdeck Canopy to cast a game winning Path or Helix (which has surpassed Fireblast as the best burn spell after Bolt/Chain, imo). Other times I'm just as happy to start popping them as soon as I hit the 4 land mark.
At a local tourney yesterday I went 5-0 then scooped to my friend round 6 (he was playing gobs) so he could place higher in the swiss+1. My matchups were Merfolk, Full English Breakfast, Survival Elves w/ NO, Eva Green, and Burning Bridge.
Here's the list I played:
1 Figure of Destiny (seemed okay as a 1-of but nothing spectacular, this deck has harsh tempo requirements already)
3 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Grim Lavamancer (MVP creature)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Woolly Thoctar
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix (MVP burn spell)
4 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
1 Windswept Heath
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest
SB:
4 Price of Progress (expected to see Lands.dec and lots of Supreme Blue)
3 Krosan Grip (expected Stax, CBTop, and some chalice aggro decks)
2 Jitte
2 Choke
2 Relic
1 Crypt
1 Gaddock Teeg
ive replaced 2 library with 2 magma jet for testing purposes, so far ive been liking it... has anyone else tried this before?
yeah, a long time ago... thought it sucked, library is a card that i'm always happy to draw
The ability to play library, get three new cards next turn, then see three more new cards the turn after is absolutely game breaking. Magma jet does not compare at all to that.
Also Lion, thanks for starting to test some cards I've wanted to see for awhile :P
Yeah Library does a lot more than Magma Jet does. To even try to pull close you'd probably want to run 4 in place of some other burn. If you're like jazzykat they may make an on-color stand-in for Lightning Helix. But ultimately Scry 2 isn't the same as Draw 2 (you're drawing one anyway), and the mana commitment and loss of draw power isn't worth the 2 damage when we'd rather have a more stable way of drawing into our more efficient damage sources.
Also a splash of black for DC run with vial has been working well for me. It gives you engineered plague for the side as well.
DC is used in Domain Zoo along with Tribal Flames, but it pretty much instantly folds to nonbasic hate. Vial seems to be more suited to a slower deck than Zoo, and therefore doesn't belong. In the end an on-color Confidant would be better than Library, but stretching the manabase so far is too dangerous for many players. Out of curiosity, what's your full list?
19 land total
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Bayou
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Savannah
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Neacatl
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
4 Path To Exile
3 Chain Lightning
4 AEther Vial
side:
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Gaddock Teeg
3 Krosan Grip
4 Engineered Plague
This deck is such a low curve its made for DC. Also I haven't found vial to be bad in the least. It can surprise an opponent forcing worse decisions. And an early trump to control magic. Not to mention if you do get mana screwed its another option. Its something that gives you outs against otherwise tougher match ups. Merfolk is tough and it helps with that to a degree. Vial is one of those cards over the years you just kind of know through experience how good it is. And in this deck it works you set it to 1 or 2 its real simple and quick and makes sure DC hits the board too. Its part of what makes Merfolk a GREAT deck its part of why goblins is a GREAT deck why not use it?
Vial certainly has its uses, but I still don't think it belongs. The loss of a full turn seems too significant. Others probably have more well-considered explanations.
Wasteland is part of what makes Merfolk a great deck, and Siege Gang Commander is part of what makes Goblins a great deck, but we don't run those even though we could. Burn is made much more consistent by Magma Jet yet we don't use it either. Your closing arguments are irrelevant, as decks have different goals and therefore have different expectations when considering cards.
EDIT: Ever consider a Doran or two? Helps Goyf and Ape which overcomes its hurting Confidant, and takes the place of big beaters #5-6 in the RGW decks.
@kirbysdl: AEther vial evens itself out tempo wise most of the time though, depending on if you happen to get a near creature-less hand which rarely happens. This deck takes 4 or more turns to kill usually. So you invest one for the vial and by turn two you already get that investment back by being able to drop a 1CC for free so it empties your hand more quickly. It can even be a tempo increase at times because you are able to drop twice as many creatures as normal. I find that the benefits it gives me in versatility against otherwise tougher match ups is worth it to run. Although the original function was for DC and not having to splash too heavily to support him.
Vial only makes Goblins and Merfolk good because card draw is what makes Aether Vial good. And don't even begin to attempt the argument that Dark Confidant provides the card draw. Relying on 4 creatures in your deck that only have 1 toughness and have to live a turn to even cantrip at the price of life loss doesn't even remotely hold a candle to Goblins' Matron/Ringleader engine or Merfolk's Standstill/Silvergill setups.
I see the argument for Dark Confidant, but Vial's a weak link in my opinion.
I've played with vial before, and it's just not worth it. You really don't get any benefit, because unlike merfolk we don't have other cards (standstill) to break it and unlike goblins we don't curve out the same. In addition, it really doesn't increase your tempo. As such you get nebulous gains like having more options against wasteland and making opposing standstills less useful...However, those minimal gains do not compensate for the fact that drawing vial replaces drawing another creature, land, or other spell, all of which are much more useful than vial.
And unlike Slivers and D&T we don't have critters to Vial in at instant speed to counter removal, pump creatures, etc. There aren't alternative casting requirements like those of Serra Avenger or Silvergill Adept to cheat. There are plenty of reasons to run Vial, but they don't really apply here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
I top 8ed a 33 man last Wednesday. I had to keep Sylvan Library in because my meta is becoming more control oriented. I wanted to put Jitte back in the maindeck but i guess it'll just stay in the side for now.. after i just got a foil one too :(
Also my deck is almost foil now. Pretty freaking sexy. The only maindeck spells not foil are my bolts and they're foreign blackbordered.
But yeah, Aether Vial sucks in this deck I'm pretty sure it's been established since last summer or so. Jeez i remember those flames haha.
I wish this deck had more outs to RWM other than 2for1ing yourself or PTE :frown:
Depending how prevalent RWM is, you can try secret tech like Char or even Vines of Vastwood/Giant Growth/random pump spell. If he had just one more power you could Reprisal. I know those are suboptimal choices normally, but if you find the games you're losing are because of RWM in particular, you can try out some of the options and see if they work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
Please post your deck in the pimp Legacy thread. :smile:
One can always run a few additional Swords to Plowshares, main or SB, if the amount of 4+ toughness creatures dictates a need for more non-burn removal. Swords can be more counter productive than Path, but stalling out on the ground because of a bunch of 3/4s and 4/5s is much more of an issue than them gaining a few life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
Yeah i took swords out of the sideboard because i don't really need it anymore. RWM doesn't get run in my meta at all, i was just speaking for a more general perspective. The few games I've had to play against it was pretty much miserable especially when they just get Exalted from a Noble Hierarch.Quote:
Originally Posted by MMogg
I've thought about posting it sometime, but it would just get laughed at seeing as it's all English copies of cards. Even though i prefer English foils because i like being able to read them, plus financial issues pimping things, most people just dump a grand into their deck or jap foils.
I scanned through most of the thread, and have something to throw out there:
since Zendikars spoiling, has anyone done any playing with Goblin Guide in for Kird Ape? I think the drawback is huge in this format, and against a Top deck it isnt worth the 2 damage. Maybe Ive answered my question already, but then again I havent done anything with it so I dont know for sure.
Also, from personal experience, having 10`-12 burn spells is better than not. I scrubbed out of a ~60 man tournament, mostly do to poor play, but I often found myself wishing I had another set of burn in the deck to finish off. I lost three matches with opps under 6 life, wishing I had chain lightning or fireblast or something for those final points.
One more question, is domain zoo even more suseptable to wasteland than normal zoo? Or does one simply get Bob out and play through wastelands on their black sources?