Miracle Control

Though I don't feel like sharing my list publically before the GP I'd love to start a discussion about a card that seems to have been forgotten for some time.
I am talking of Mishra's Factory.
First, how am I fitting this into my list? Well I am playing 23 lands, these to be clear:
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Utilitylands

I have been playing Karakas and Mystic Gate in those two slots until lately. Since I've cut Venser from my Sideboard and Clique from my Mainboard Karakas didn't seem that appealing any more, as Maverick was on the decrease aswell this led me to cut the Karakas. The Mysticgate didn't seem to great in testing so I cut it.

Why would I play Mishras? Well, in testing the Jund-MU proved to be... strange. I played quite a lot games, and in some games the Miracles engine would just crush them, as they fall in the Simply-Creature-Category. On the other hand, they have hands that include heavy discard followed by Liliana, making the MU really really tough, as any creature to follow is a must handle. This are the times where I get crushed by the Jund-mechanic.

Mishras Factory seemed a good idea against Jund when they have the Crush-Miracle-Hand.... they can't be Decayed and are hard to discard while being awesome against Lilly and useful against a lone attacking Confidant/Deathrite(-when under RIP).

Mishra has some other applications too, obv. Under a RIP they stop the Mungo-Beatdown, or they just trade with them even without RIP. They represent a clock, which mostly has to be activated under a Counterbalance, and protects our Jace and threatens the opposing.

As information for serious answers, I am running a Miraclelist featuring RIP/Helm MB, 2 Counterbalance and 2 SFM 1 Skull alongside the typical stuff. Oh well, I guess I just shared my list, well, nevermind^^


btw:lol@"If you play 4 Balance you have no idea" --- even if I don't play 4 Counterbalance, this still represents a valid choice, with obvious achievements and victories.


Greetings

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Originally Posted by Pherion

Heya Tamales,

Your list looks like a lot of fun, but there are a few things I'd change:

Powder Keg is very slow, I think I'd run with Engineered Explosives even if you don't splash a 3rd color. Lets compare how they each act.
Destroying 0 CMC: Powder Keg costs 2 to cast, and you tap it to sack it. EE costs 0, you then pay 2 to sac it. So they do the same thing here.
Destroying 1 CMC: Powder Keg costs 2 to cast, you wait a turn, then use it. EE costs 1 to use, and you can immediatly pay 2 to sac it. Here EE is faster, but Keg costs less.

The pattern continues with EE increasing in mana cost, and Keg increasing in turns. With the amount of mana we run (around 23 ususally) we will have plenty of land drops to always make EE a better option. Also - Keg can't kill enchantments, and I do love dropping an EE for WWU and watching the opposing Counterballance player get all confused.

Next up, are you playing Aura of Silence as a Disenchant, or are you afraid of MUD and Affinity? If it's the latter, then you need a better card: Energy Flux or Kataki, War's Wage for affinity, and counter magic for MUD. I'd suggest swapping it for a straight up Disenchant.

And last, Sphere of Law in you board makes me wonder why you're not running Energy Field in the main deck. It's one of the reasons that RIP is so good, Helm being the second one. I'd suggest finding room in the main for two fields, and see how that effects your burn match-up.

Cheers,
Frank

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Yeah, I guess it's time to upgrade to an EE over Powder Kegs. Good point on that. Thanks!

Aura of Silence is in there mainly against Enchantress and if I come across Affinity (though they've probably played their entire hand already... varies if it's the Tezz version). It also fulfills the 3cc section if needed.

Sphere of Law is in there against Burn match ups and goblins. The issue with Energy Field is that I find myself aggressively mulliganing and I don't want to fight for hands with perfect combinations. A few counterspells and a tutor will buy me enough time to set it up and come back into the game with a Baneslayer, versus a mulligan into RIP + Energy Field.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Any lists that run 4 Counterbalances are clear indicators of little or no understanding of how Miracle control works. Simply google Miracle control, out of all the top 8 Miracle control deck lists, how many of them are running 4 CB?

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Less snark please.

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Originally Posted by Polish Tamales

I think my list is nearly complete. I might add R for Blood Moon + Pyroblast, + Engineered Explosives, but I'm not quite ready yet unless someone can convince me to drop almost $200 USD for the upgrades.

Here's what I have so far for a pure U/W list. Let me know how you feel about this guys.

Main Deck:
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

1 Back to Basics
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
1 Detention Sphere
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Rest in Peace
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus

1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Plains
4 Tundra

Sideboard:
1 Aura of Silence
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Flusterstorm
1 Humility
1 Pithing Needle
1 Powder Keg
1 Sphere of Law
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Surgical Extraction

Again, adding Red would mean dropping Back to Basics for Blood Moon and switching Powder Keg for Engineered Explosives. Let me know how you guys feel about this.

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Quick thoughts, having never tried many of these cards:
-Blood Moon is there for the "oops, I won" factor against many difficult match ups, like Jund, BUG, and Esper. Back to Basics doesn't seem like an adequate replacement to me. If you really just love the card (and who could blame you?) 4 Tundras seems like way too many. I'd cut down to 2. But really, I'd cut the BtB.
-Isn't Ratchet Bomb just better than Powder Keg?
-I can't say you should definitely drop $200 on the red splash, as I'm toying with the idea of cutting it myself, but I will point out that Volcanics aren't exactly going down in price. You may as well get them now.

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Originally Posted by oarsman

Dang, just when I thought I was starting to get the hang of this, I find out that I have no idea what I am doing.

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Hahahahaha!

Powder Keg destroys Mishra's Factories and artifact lands.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Any lists that run 4 Counterbalances are clear indicators of little or no understanding of how Miracle control works. Simply google Miracle control, out of all the top 8 Miracle control deck lists, how many of them are running 4 CB?

To make the list more futile, adding Stoneblade package is just not the direction. We had this debate before, just look for reasoning in previous couple pages.

Seriously, again, just google Miracle control, out of all the top 8, which one runs Powder Keg? Look, budget is not an excuse, unless you post your list in casual section. Most tournament/competitive Legacy Miracle control decks run 3 colors. This is not even related to card choices, this is just your affordability.


No, Energy Field is clunky. It's a magnet for REB/Pyroblast. Just look at SCG Legacy Open's lists where Miracle Helms won 1st place, none of them MD Energy Field, maybe not even SB.

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Interesting...I wonder what those top 8 guys google to make their decks...

I think Mishra's Factory could be an interesting inclusion in the classic build with 6 or more creatures and without the red splash. In the Rip versions with so few creatures you are just giving your opponent a good target for their removal.
What do you think about including noxious revival in a miracles with 3 snapcasters and no Rip combo as a singleton?

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Originally Posted by cschacal

I think Mishra's Factory could be an interesting inclusion in the classic build with 6 or more creatures and without the red splash. In the Rip versions with so few creatures you are just giving your opponent a good target for their removal.
What do you think about including noxious revival in a miracles with 3 snapcasters and no Rip combo as a singleton?

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I used to palay Mishra's in the first version of the deck from about year ago. It was just uw with 3 casters 1 clique and it was amazing. It gives you the game against jace (one of the top reasons to play them), after terminus it allows you to quicky seal the deal - esepcially if you have CB-Top.

I am afraid that noxious revival is too narrow.

I used to use 2~3 factories in my MD along with 3 Cliques/Snapcasters. It made the deck really linear and ended up costing me a lot of game 1 matches where a Detention Sphere would've been nice. Probably just better in Stoneblade where it isn't competing for slots as badly.

Which is why I feel that a Blood Moon or B2B would be good MD knowing that it will wreak over half the decks in the format game 1. Blood Moon especially when it just ends the game potentially or even worst for Lands players. Venser also provides some surprising tech game 1 as well. Worst case, it fills the 3cc slot in the deck game 1. Then again, it just depends on the flavor of the month in the meta game, where I could swap out the RIP/Helm package for Stoneforge/Batterskull or Tropther/Sword combo (which is terrible against the mirror).

Do you board out StP and PtE against Show and Tell and Reanimator?

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Originally Posted by Iron Buddha

Do you board out StP and PtE against Show and Tell and Reanimator?

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Which show and tell deck? sneak and show? omnitell?

For reanimator I leave in one or two StP, mostly because I run out of things to bring in.

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Originally Posted by oarsman

Dang, just when I thought I was starting to get the hang of this, I find out that I have no idea what I am doing.

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people also don't realize that the md/sb that works on the scg circuit is sometimes quite different than what would work in their local metagame.

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Originally Posted by Polish Tamales

or Tropther/Sword combo (which is terrible against the mirror).

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Thopter/sword is terrible in general. A two-card combo with cards that are useless on their own that is slow to win with that is vulnerable to graveyard hate.

Awful, awful.

I saw some latest decklists with one Izzet Staticaster in side. Would be this card better against maverick than Sulfur Elemental?
Anyway, why sulfur/izzet is more often to see in sideboards than pyroclasm? pyroclasm should be more devastating for maverick (hit gaddock, ...) I think and is very good against elves, goblins and jund.

I think it's more for the EsperBlade matchup where Elemental > Lingering Souls and Elemental can't be countered/it can be played in response to Esperblade's discard/can be played eot to kill their Jace they just played.

lingering souls are not even that good vs us, we have terminus. you just have to keep the terminus in post board vs esper and maverick. between clique and stps and oring, i don't think teeg is a big problem. if they got mom then yeah, but i mean.. what did you keep vs them then?

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Originally Posted by sauce

lingering souls are not even that good vs us, we have terminus. you just have to keep the terminus in post board vs esper and maverick. between clique and stps and oring, i don't think teeg is a big problem. if they got mom then yeah, but i mean.. what did you keep vs them then?

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You're keeping in Terminus versus Esperblade? Are you kidding me?

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Originally Posted by sauce

lingering souls are not even that good vs us, we have terminus. you just have to keep the terminus in post board vs esper and maverick. between clique and stps and oring, i don't think teeg is a big problem. if they got mom then yeah, but i mean.. what did you keep vs them then?

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I hope you are being sarcastic.

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Originally Posted by sauce

lingering souls are not even that good vs us, we have terminus. you just have to keep the terminus in post board vs esper and maverick. between clique and stps and oring, i don't think teeg is a big problem. if they got mom then yeah, but i mean.. what did you keep vs them then?

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What? Removal in general is horrible against Lingering Souls. You would be trading actual cards for tokens. I do nkt see how it is not great against us when it actually it is one of the cards I hate seeing the most. Only good ways to answer it is to clean up the board with a pernament or playing creatures with a bigger behind than the tokens.

The bigger issue is equipment. Half a Lingering Souls can't kill Jace, so usually we have to 1-for-1 it with Terminus. Awkward, but not horrible. If they have equipment that we cant remove then we will likely be trading a Terminus for half a Lingering Souls. That's when we have a problem.

I don't know why you'd ever consider boarding out Terminus vs Esper. They are fairy likely to have Geists in the board, mainly for us.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I don't know why you'd ever consider boarding out Terminus vs Esper. They are fairy likely to have Geists in the board, mainly for us.

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But if you'd keep in Terminus, you'd have to board out Swords, meaning that you are horribly weak to a T2 Mystic?

Greetings

Exactly - when I loose to Esper it is against horde of creatures, jace and counter back-up. We want to keep terminus in.

do you keep all FOW in against esper?

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Originally Posted by TaxMan

do you keep all FOW in against esper?

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I would argue that FoW is pretty horrible in current Legacy Meta. It's only useful against combos like High tide, Show and Tell, and Storm.

Esper is not those comb decks. In the Legacy tournaments I've been to, the chance of me running into combo is a lot less than everything else. Looking at Joe/Oarsman's list, Misdirection might be a better approach at this point.

I hate force of will and love misdirection. Even so, the safe way to set my deck up is to split 3/1. Recently I have gone 2/2, but for this weekend I am intending to go the safe route. I might change my mind again before tomorrow morning. If I had any ability to predict the metagame I might feel more confident about 2/2. But I don't, and going in blind I am hedging against combo. It will be the same 75 either way, unless I hear some crazy stuff tonight.

Last invitational I got torn apart by abrupt decay and ended up 3-5 in Legacy. I'm better prepared this time (for everything). If I can manage to break even in Standard I expect to make it into the second day.

so apart from FOW, what do you take out against esper, all StP?
Esper and Maverick are only two matchups where i'm not sure how to side in/out, as almost all maindeck cards are not really bad, but not all of them are excellent.
I've read some articles as well and each sideboard strategy was different so not sure what plan is the best...

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Originally Posted by oarsman

I hate force of will and love misdirection. Even so, the safe way to set my deck up is to split 3/1. Recently I have gone 2/2, but for this weekend I am intending to go the safe route. I might change my mind again before tomorrow morning. If I had any ability to predict the metagame I might feel more confident about 2/2. But I don't, and going in blind I am hedging against combo. It will be the same 75 either way, unless I hear some crazy stuff tonight.

Last invitational I got torn apart by abrupt decay and ended up 3-5 in Legacy. I'm better prepared this time (for everything). If I can manage to break even in Standard I expect to make it into the second day.

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I can imagine that Misdirection can be really good in some matchups, but I would feel a bit unsafe without 4 FOW maindeck, but maybe that's only because I haven't tested Misdirection maindeck yet :-)

Taking out StP seems like a really bad idea. Turn 2 SFM protected by countermagic will quickly kill a Miracle deck.

here is my actual decklist:
3 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas
1 Mountain
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Detention Sphere
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
3 Rest in Peace
1 Helm of Obedience
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Vendilion Clique

SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Entreat the Angels
SB: 1 Energy Field
SB: 1 Counterspell
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

so what would be the sideboard plan for esper/maverick?

any comments/tips to my main/sidelist are welcome as well.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Taking out StP seems like a really bad idea. Turn 2 SFM protected by countermagic will quickly kill a Miracle deck.

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i know, but on the another hand they are useless against Geist and Lingerings. and against miracles they will search first for Sword of Feast and Famine I think, so stp will not do too much

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Taking out StP seems like a really bad idea. Turn 2 SFM protected by countermagic will quickly kill a Miracle deck.

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you cant take your removal out vs them at all. you just have to take out some amount of force of wills and put in some red blasts/counterspells depending on your board.

i typically cut fow vs mirror-ish decks. i may leave 1 for cbtop purposes though just in case but i hate fow.

FOW is miserable in fair matchups. You're better off trading 1 for 1 with Counterspell and StP than Forcing spells. You generally want to cast all your blue spells, not pitch them.

Supreme Verdict and Venser are both pretty good against Stoneblade and being 4cmc is nice. I'm not sure I like Spell Pierce against them very much, but I think FoW definitely has to go. I suppose Pyroclasm is pretty good if you are expecting Geists, but I don't know that I'd go out of my way to have them in the board.

Blood Moon hasn't been impressing me too much lately. I think too many Jund decks have caught on by now and are packing basic Forest and Swamp. Maybe it's simply been awkward luck, but I've seen Jund topdeck out of Blood Moon at least a few times. I suppose it still has game against BUG, but there haven't been many of those lately.

I might cut the Blood Moon for more Sneak and Show hate. Pithing Needle seems good, at least in theory. Dealing with Show and Tell isn't a big problem, but if they resolve Sneak Attack it feels near impossible to win.

I mean, Blind Obedience, Pithing Needle, Ensnaring Bridge, Humility, and others are all "answers" to it. They only play up to 3 bounce in the board, so they have to Griselbrand AND go find the bounce, if they can. It's pretty bad for them.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I mean, Blind Obedience, Pithing Needle, Ensnaring Bridge, Humility, and others are all "answers" to it. They only play up to 3 bounce in the board, so they have to Griselbrand AND go find the bounce, if they can. It's pretty bad for them.

-Matt

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Blind Obedience is one I hadn't thought of. Still, I think either Pithing Needle or Humility might be the better options because dropping Griselbrand and drawing 14 into bounce isn't unreasonable. Humility is sometimes on the slow side which leans me towards Needle, but having a tutorable 4cmc is nice.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

Blind Obedience is one I hadn't thought of. Still, I think either Pithing Needle or Humility might be the better options because dropping Griselbrand and drawing 14 into bounce isn't unreasonable. Humility is sometimes on the slow side which leans me towards Needle, but having a tutorable 4cmc is nice.

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Blind Obedience is bad against other decks as well, though. But your best specific answers are going to be Needle and Humility, even though Humility is slow.

-Matt

As said in the Rock-Thread. Blind Obedience won't really help you vs a Show and Tell player with a little bit of skill. He can just activate Sneak on our EoT, enttapping and attacking for the win... so how did Obedience help you?
I think Countermagic and O-Rings/Spheres are fine vs the average Show and Tell-draws. If they lucksack into a hand with 3-4 Outlets we just die, but that's fine.

Greetings

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

As said in the Rock-Thread. Blind Obedience won't really help you vs a Show and Tell player with a little bit of skill. He can just activate Sneak on our EoT, enttapping and attacking for the win... so how did Obedience help you?
I think Countermagic and O-Rings/Spheres are fine vs the average Show and Tell-draws. If they lucksack into a hand with 3-4 Outlets we just die, but that's fine.

Greetings

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And as I said, it's betting than nothing, and it's faster than Humility. I also was pretty sure that I said it was worth than both Needle AND Humility, by the way.

-Matt

I played 2 matches against SNT im GPT for Strasbourg. I actually sided 11 cards in this matchup (I was expecting this) with Meddling Mage being most effective and Pithing Needle as runner up. SNT for creature isn't the big issue (Humility, Detention Sphere, Karakas etc). Just stop Sneak Attack and you're good to go. (won with 6-0-1 btw)

I have too little testing against Jund, I have 7 cards to board in, what to board out? FoW ofcourse, but the other 3/4, Jace? Energy Field?

As stated berore we need to watch out for Sneak Attack and if they S+T we put Humility into play. Humility is also huge against Jund, folks, goblins etc... What a great card!

Humility would make me want to play factories. Do you guys think the red plash is still better than manlands?

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Originally Posted by Jayman

Humility would make me want to play factories. Do you guys think the red plash is still better than manlands?

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Only Red Blasts seem worthwhile for a red splash. Maybe P-fire, but I never like splashing more than 2 colors for control decks as we want to make our land drops. A more stable manabase seems more important than having some extra utility/sideboard options.