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Both list are good and have their own different strengths. The mono red list has been played a lot more, especially at a time when it fit the meta game really well (had a first one week and a second at the next SCG tournament). RW is becoming more popular these days, but so are other decks that we tend to have a terrible match up with such as Burn. That at least is my reasoning behind why you don't see as many high finishes RW as you do mono R.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago
I do play the deck differently now compared to when I first started. It's good to wait to ensure blood moon sticks rather then to risk it being daze for example. Right use of REC is something I am learning all the time. It just seems that miracles 8 creature destruction and 10-12 counters makes it difficult to win. Their plan is to always drop top which we can only counter if we get painter on board and have a blast in hand. If we hold blast for counter balance they still are likely to have at lead force or a counter available when they play counterbalance. We can only stick one creature on board or risk a 2 for 1 loss to miracles wraith. Their top with brainstorm and the number of fetches they run is very good at filtering their cards if we do not place a threat. Blood moon helps but getting it through is more of us needing a blast as backup and 4 mana on board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
I like the idea of pyrokinese. It's pretty much card disadvantage if it gets counter but I can see it taking out goyf or at least 2 if not three creatures. May be worth a try. I do agree pyrocalsm only fits gee specific meta and is risky most of the time.
On the lands issue. I can see why some prefer to run 20 lands instead of 18 or 19. I almost always ship any one land hand even with top. I get screwed with it more times then any 6 hand draw after a mulligan. I mean I won many times on 5 hand mulligan then keeping a draw of 7 with 1 land. IP is rather forgiving of mulliganning it seems.
Even then I do seem to feel that I get mana screwed quite a number of times. This is especially so with the R/W version. I know this is just a roll of the dice and happens to all decks. It seems that it happens more often then I would like. Not sure if having 20 lands would make that big a difference. The other option is to run mono red with cards like spellskite/koth? In place of tutor. Grindstone will be harder to come by with potentially better mana Stability? Or run 1 plains and fetch it whenever possible?
Thaks! I got it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moomba
Well, I have a problem now. I canīt bear the thought of play with a worse list. I prefer the RW, but if the mono is better, I must to convince myself.
I will play a tournment with this deck in September. So... I need your help guys.... RW or MONO???
What do you think about a whatsapp group?
Tiago read through this thread before asking questions like that. Everything has been covered. I'll answer again anyways.
If you are less experienced with the deck run mono red. You won't be punished as much with it. Shortcake is the better version only if you know what you're doing. In the manabase alone, This includes everything from sandbagging non basics for wasteland purposes, pre-emptive tutoring, fetching decisions basic/non if you don't have a tutor at the moment, and cost/benefit of killing off a city of traitors so you can have a white source. You also run a great furnace so you end up with only half as many basics as mono red. you only have these decisions when playing rw and if you don't squeeze all the value out of them as you can you'll run into mana screw issues and open up soft counters and wasteland punishment. The payoff is higher because you have better tutoring and bullets available, though.
Thanks for the tips.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
I read everything before ask this, but I didn't found nothing really solid.
I've been playing MTG since 1996, I have a good experience. The field is really good here, people love Delver's decks... And I.. Well.. I hate it!! Lets breake and paint them all.
I didn't say a lot of magic experience. You need a lot of painter experience.
Disappointing 0-2 drop streaming the 7:30 EST daily yesterday.
If anyone was watching, I apologize for dropping the first match. Got a call from the shop and had to pick up the car. Hopefully a situation like that will not come up again.
Brutal mull to 4 against miracles in R2 G1 and then a quick terminus followed by the Counter-Top lock G2. Blah. I still like us in this match-up. Just some bad luck yesterday.
Tough times.
What Kap'n is telling everyone is spot on from my experience. I played R/W for quite awhile and did well, though I would occasionally find myself in mana-screw situations. I've recently been trying Mono-Red, and I've found it suits my play-style and level of experience much better. R/W is more consistent in finding your combo pieces and silver bullets, but you're living much more on the edge, which can open you up some to Delver and other such decks if your decision-making isn't spot-on. Mono-Red is less consistent at finding the combo, but slightly more resilient on the whole. I'm no expert, so the Mono-Red version fits me better. If you have more experience, R/W is probably the better version of the deck, but it requires more knowledge of the meta and more crucial decisions.
On the Miracles match, I agree with Kap'n, it's at least 60% in Painter's favor. Shutting off fetches via Moon is huge against them. You can also usually pin them single-U and/or single-W mana, and they require UU or WW for their win conditions. I often use the combo pieces as bait spells to set up landing Koth or Chandra. If the combo works, great, but it can be difficult. I also run one Vexing Shusher in my sideboard as anti-Miracles, anti-Chalice tech -- though that's an MTGO call since there's so much Miracles online. Not sure I'd bring Shusher to a live tournament.
In the Mono-red shell, I've been testing Chandra and Coercive Portal. Portal was awesome the one game I drew it last night. I can't decide if it's win-more or not though.
@cab0747 -- what's your handle on MTGO? I was in the same daily yesterday. Aside from Kap'n, it feels like ages since I've run across another Painter deck in a daily.
My MTGO handle is IAmGnarles. I haven't been grinding the dailies as consistently as I would like. I think the other painter player I was up against last night was PA_Rude. There might have been a number tacked on to his name. Maybe PA_Rude60... Oh well, I suppose the accuracy of his name doesn't matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lysandros
I am on the east coast so I have been doing the 7:30 pm EST daily rather than the later one. It seems that not as many people sign up, but since I have to be at work between 8 and 9 am on weekdays, the 11:00 pm event isn't really an option.
This is something I would join in on. Just sayin'. Taptalk works as well, if that wasn't an option alreadyQuote:
Originally Posted by Tiago
Also; Hometown GP this weekend! It's standard but nothing but Legacy Side events and the championship on sunday! Shit prize payouts (m15 boosters) but it's a change of pace and I'm ready to grind R/w some. I'll keep notes and don't expect much in the way of skilled opponents and any sort of a metagame. It's going to be a great weekend slinging spells, and I'll share my results for those more interested in running something close to Seth's list (personal preference)
Well, let's try to make a group.
Can you put your phone's numbers here? I think there is no problem. I don't know how you, north-americans call the two numbers before the "main" number, but I will need it.
Example:
+55 (51) 9987-2987
Yes, that was me. Sorry you couldn't finish. It was a fun matchup. I ended up 4-0ing the daily. Played against 2 American delver and elves in the finals.Quote:
Originally Posted by cab0747
Round 2 had a really strong hand with early combo and REB backup both games.
round 3 very grindy and eventually got there by answering all his threats, beating down with dorks, and sealing the deal with moon in Game 3. FYI to kapn, I play 2 pyrite spellbomb main and they were all-stars. I think I recurred it like 4 times with welder against delver and he couldn't keep a threat on board. Other nice thing is that you can always just cycle them in matchups where they are bad and they give you an artifact in the yard for welder shenanigans.
Round 4 against elves pretty grindy as well. Round one just got there a little faster than he did with combo. Round 2 he got his engine going but I had Jaya and the Jitte out and was keeping him at bay. He of course would just bounce dudes that he blocked the Jitter guy up and I would kill the symbiote and he would just get another one. Eventually he was able to run out two Behemoths in a row and ran over me. Game 3 blew him out with sudden demise to hit 4 dudes and then dropped jaya and killed his forest with painter and moon out and he was locked out of green mana.
So far also like my word of seizing tech. It won me my game against cab (we both had leyline out and I was able to steal his) and is awesome against miracles, and especially fun to steal and ultimate Jace.
Also, I really like the idea of pyrokinesis other than the card disadvantage. Might have to try that out.
One other quick thing, I've had the unfortunate experience of playing against Tezzerator some lately and man is that a gruesome matchup. They have Chalice of the void, tons of artifact mana so blood moon is worthless, countermagic to break up our combo and their win condition is a bunch of Planeswalkers or thopter/sword combo so the bridges aren't really good. Anyone have any secrets to this matchup? I assume you just have to try to jam the combo ASAP and forget about everything else. I may have been trying to control the game too much. Chalice is killer on turn one though. I even run the manic vandal and one copy of shattering spree in the SB. Shattering spree is obviously really good against him. I may actually go up to 2 copies of that, as I've also been seeing a lot of null rod lately.
Play viashino heretic over manic vandal if you fear artifact.decks ; play grindstone immediately and hope they don't have chalice turn one if you're on the draw. You can also side in RIP/helm to circumvent chalice.
I used to play heretic over the vandal which was good against MUD but it was so bad against most of the other decks you want artifact removal for (namely stoneforge decks or other one of''s). It would just die before I would even get to activate it. I guess it would be better in this particular matchup though. And yes, I would obviously drop the grindstone immediately (or welder) if given the opportunity. It just doesn't always happen like that. I guess considering I have 7 spells to drop on turn one (grindstone + welder) vs his 4 chalice and a sol land, the odds should be in my favor. Maybe I've just been getting unlucky in the matchup or need to mulligan to one of my 1 drops right away. I do also have the RIP/helm combo against them but it's not that great in this matchup as I feel like the welders are pretty powerful against their deck and I don't want to shut them off.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoCop 90
Again, a singleton Vexing Shusher (which is fetchable) in the side goes a long way against Chalice / Counterbalance decks....Miracles / MUD / Tezzerator / Merfolk (now playing Chalice a lot) is a significant enough portion of the meta for one sideboard card I think.
I didn't see nothing about CURSED TOTEM in this topic. I think Cursed Totem is a powerfull card to put in SB. It helps in matches like Death and Taxes, Elves, blades, BUG, etc).
Anyone of you have tested?
Wow, it's a great idea, I really like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lysandros
I'll buy it and test it.
But aren't those match ups we're already pretty good against? I'm thinking about a singleton COP: Red in heavy Burn and UR Delver meta, which I think is really tough for us. I just hate loosing to Burn and it always put me on tilt when I have to face against it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago
Spellskite is quite good versus burn and has other uses. It doesn't necessitate a splash.
Smash to smithereens answers it but that's about it and at least if that happens it's not targeting the combo.
Try warmth. It isnt mana-intensive and it is tutorable (like COP). I've run it in the SB ever since burn blew up on MODO. Works well when you get it :)Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanS2k
Did you see the spoilers of FTV: Anniquilation???
They will relaunch ROLLING EARTHQUAKE, a card with potential to play in MD or SB of Painters.
=D
For this deck Sudden Demise is vastly superior if you want an X pyroclasm effect. You can use it an potential not hit any of your own creatures or you can use Painter's colour of choice if you need to hit everything. Plus with us using Ancient Tombs we need all the life we can get with Burn, Delver and Goyf's running around.
Yeah, I would have to agree. The benefit Sudden Demise has of potentially not hitting your own stuff plus the life loss with Rolling Earthquake are definitely strikes against it. The only reason I would play Rolling Thunder over Sudden Demise is that I can now get it foiled! :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Moomba
Imperial Painter Thread summed up in two words, pimp is tech
Met a Sourcer at GP Utrecht last weekend, jasper78 recognized a blood moon when he saw one. Shout outs
As for the actual tournament, I scrubbed pretty hard. Wasn't playing to win, really. It has been like half a year since I've sat down to play Legacy. But at least I can pinpoint exactly where I done goofed and learned from it. For the first time ever I found Koth to be a hole in the deck. Never saw it. Not once. Anyone else know that feel?
I've removed Koth from my list awhile ago, and after finishing 21st @ Syracuse this past weekend too, I've changed a few small things to really stream line the main deck. Gotta test it out at some local events to see how it works outside of my gold fishing.
That was sort of my progressive thinking, to streamline more and clunk it up less...
I've had the same problem with Koth. I only really like him in against Miracles and he wasn't too bad against DnT. Every other deck I wanted to board him in I could never decide if he was worth it.
Recently I played a small 3 round Tournament and played 2 BUG Delver Decks and 1 Merfolk. 3-0ed. Firebolt was an all star (Even got to flashback) however I've been contemplating going back to Lightning Bolt.
A friend of mine has a whole bunch of legacy decks proxied up , and I am gonna run the gauntlet one of these days. I'll do a nice report.
Cursed totem would shut off Jaya and welders. Don't love it. As for Koth, never really loved him. He just has no synergy with the rest of the deck. That, and you have no way to tutor for him. In a deck full of tutor effects, why would you make this one of your win conditions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago
Hey guys.. I guess I found the solution against burn.
What do you think about Nyx-Fleece Ram?? We can fetch it with recruiter and tutor!
Its not good. Compared to Warmth or COP:Red (Which actually protects you.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago
They could throw 2 bolts/chain lightning and you're only getting one life during your upkeep.
Recruiter searching for Ram and Being able to cast it only to gain 1 life during your upkeep is way too slow and burn will probably have a good amount of damage on you anyways.
I personally ran Sphere of Law at Syracuse and it won me 1 burn match and almost won me another (guy had a lucky double fireblast while he was tapped out and I was exactly at 8). If you drop it by turn 3 it should be very hard to lose the match.
The best protection against burn is COP Red. The only way they can beat it is Pithing Needle, they splash white for (Wear/Tear) or you get impatient and don't hold up enough mana. Yes it takes free mana but you just sit back and pass the turn until you have enough to protect + win. The hardest part is being patient.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jake556
It would seem so! Corulla just won the 11 Aug legacy daily on MTG with a single COP REd in the sideboard! Interesting that he had one firebolt and one Jitte in the MB. He also 2 Pyroclasm in the sideboard.
I have been testing Pyrokinese for a week and I have to say it performed better then expected. Everytime I side it in for appropriate matchup in game 2 and 3, it has taken out 2 and sometimes 3 creatures. Opponents just never expect it. As a instant, you can cast it without mana open and at the appropriate times. I took our 3 elves in one game that won me the match. In a Aggro delver, I took out a delver and deathrite and that turned the game around for me to win. Another time, I took out 2 delvers and in another game, I took out a goyf and delver.
I also finally won against Miracles today. Tough match but won in game 2 with a grindstone and game 3 with beat down after getting blood moon in play. I basically kept baiting him to plow, terminus cards like magus and welder and jaya. Then REC revoker on Top and manage to get blood moon in play when he dealt with the many creature threats I played. I also narrowly lost another miracles match 2-1. The third game was close. He was down to 2 life before he manage to get a lock on me.
All in all it seems that the main problem decks for IP(for me) these days seems to be S&T and the aggro version of delver. I would rate my chances against them to be less then 40%. I am seeing alot less Burn these days which I am really glad though.
By Aggro version of delver, are you talking about U/R delver? S&T can be a pain, but most of the time its just digging for bridge (and hoping they allow it to put it in with their SnT) and hoping to kill them with Jaya under bridge. G1 isnt bad, but its g2 & g3 that they bring in Ashen Rider to blow up your bridge which is bad for painter :/Quote:
Originally Posted by oliverpool
I tested against my friend last night who was playing U/R delver. Very hard matchup as they just have so much removal and present some must deal with threats (Delver, Lavamancer) I also tried Warmth in the Sideboard and wasn't impressed with it. I almost want to run Leyline of Sanctity to beat the Burn matches, or Try Witchbane Orb. Both of those also are decent in other matches too.
Ya U/R and the U/R/G? with deathrite shaman. Their combination of daze/pierce/force/bolts/pyromancer/delver and wasteland is really a pain. Some games its like they have a answer for everything you throw at them and they end up with a goyf or pyro or delver/shaman on the table after everything. Or a wasteland just appears at the right time when you have a way to win the next turn. I get the feeling I am always on the reaction mode against the delver deck instead of trying to establish my game state.Quote:
Originally Posted by UnsungHero
Show and Tell and not dedges(Bridge from below) is the one I have issue with. They do have some counters which they will keep against one of your combo pieces but by turn 2, you have to be on the look our for Show and Tell and later a sneak attack. Pyroblast is really our only way to make sure a Grisel or Emrakul does not come on board. Bridges does help if you have it in hand.
I find that Leyline of Sanctity is great against burn. But One big problem when I ran with 4 in my SB. You pretty much need to have it in your first 7. If not, the double white requirement and 4 mana casting spell almost means turn 3 or 4 if ever before you are able to cast it. By then, its pretty much game over. Even with it out on turn 0, the burn player will keep fireblast, bolts and chain etc all for your painter and move to the beat down plan. That is still pretty strong play esp with eidolon in play. Shattering spree and their spearing blood is also a killer for our deck if they side it in. I am thinking COP Red is really the answer. When I tested warmth, I did not find it that fantastic. Also with Mono Red seemingly on the downtrend, I am not sure if we want to devote too many SB to it? Maybe more SB cards vs Delvers and S&T might make more sense.
Just got home from playing Thursday night Legacy at my lgs. We had 15 people. I'm still using the stock Shortcake list.
Round 1: Death and Taxes (2-0)
Round 2: Dredge (2 -0)
Round 3: Ant (2-1)
Round 4: Burn (2-0)
Against Burn, I was on the play and I assembled my combo fast and my opponent was tapped out. Game 2, my opponent went down to 4 cards and I kept my 7.
I'm getting so damn tired of Death and Taxes, that I bought 2 foil Flashfires (Obviously, it HAS to be foil.... FLASHfires? ;) ), that i put in my board for yesterdays weekly legacy tourney... Plus one of my friends has gotten this crazy idea of collecting that monoW soldier deck with Suppression Field's and shit in it, so I figured, hell why not.... Didn't meet one single white deck that day...
Got to the last round as 4-1 in the swiss, getting paired up against my friend who was 5-0 at that time, so obviously, he wanted to play, and I couldn't draw, so we play:
Game 1, he wins the dieroll, and thoughtseizes me, taking my Blood Moon, which leaves me with a lot of mana on my hand.... Don't mind it, I just start to rip the cards from the top until I outclass his draws with mine....
Game 2... Playing patiently drawing 3 Force of Will's from his hand, before my 4th moon effect sticks to the board, giving me enough time to set up shop and combo him :D
My list for reference:
Lands
6x Mountain
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Bloodstained Mire
Creatures
4x Painter's Servant
4x Imperial Recruiter
4x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Magus of the Moon
1x Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
Other
4x Blood Moon
1x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Red Elemental Blast
4x Pyroblast
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Lotus Petal
1x Chrome Mox
4x Grindstone
Sideboard
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Grafdigger's Cage
4x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Manic Vandal
3x Pyrokinesis
1x Shattering Spree
2x Koth of the Hammer
I'm not at all arguing the strength and resiliency (Spell check, anyone?) of the S-Cake version, but if I had the chance to go to GP New Jersey in November.... I wouldn't change a damn thing, and I would play the living hell out of all the fair decks :D
I put koth in my sideboard for now and I'm inclined towards removing him. I still have him in my 75 because i just love the card :) but i really think that in shortcake with 4 imperial recruiters and 3 tutors we should run another creature/artifact/enchantment tutorable silver bullet instead of a random planeswalker. If you want to wreck miracle, just run 3 koth in sideboard :)
I want to ask some opinions about sideboarding against jund. Jund is the most popular deck in my area and most of my opponents side in a couple surgical extractions against me .... after being unable to win with combo for some games, i started siding in rip + helm. The problem is that i think i am oversideboarding now because i'm doing like + 4 firebolt, + 2 ensnaring bridge, + 3 rip, + 1 helm of obedience. What do you think is better.... having less firebolts? not having bridges? not having rip at all?