Ok, then its better ^^
Thanks 👍
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Ok, then its better ^^
Thanks 👍
Hello people
I'm new in here and I'm new to the awesome format Legacy. But I've been playing Modern seriously for the past 2 years or so.
I've made my 3rd Legacy deck after struggling around figuring where my shelf is. First i tried Affinity which was just meh. Then i played alot of Punishing Fire Nic Fit which was fairly okay but it wasn't the thing for me. So i did borrow a deck from a friend of mine to play at the local. It happened to be Ad Nauseum Tendrils combo.. and i was sold! This deck is insane! and oh boy it's fun to play.
So i decided i wanted ANT as my Legacy deck and I've been working on it for 2 months now. My List is the following
Lands: (15)
2 Watery Grave (1 Underground Sea inc)
1 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
I'm saving money to be able to get the proper Duals, for now i manage to borrow them or if I can't I just play with my shocks (yes its bad i know). I have been looking around for alternative rootes to a manabase which would be a bit cheaper and i found that some list runs Gemstone Mine. So it might be an optien? I don't know. Right now I'm Shocking myself to losses but it's okay, rather play and lose than not play at all :) - I really need some help to get rid of those shock lands as fast as possible. Atm i paid (currently waiting for it to arrive) for 1 Underground Sea, and I'm planning to buy my second one in february. When I'm done with seas i go for Volcanic Island then Bayou. But is there a rute which could be faster? like playing the Gemstone Mines etc. I can't effort more than 1 dual a month i believe (depends on my sales ofc).
Mainboard:(45)
Singletons:
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Past in Flames
1x Ad Nauseam
Cantrips:
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
2x Preordain
1x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Gitaxian Probe
Tutors:
4x Infernal Tutor
Rituals:
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Dark Ritual
Discard:
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Duress
So far I'm happy about my mainboard. I'm not sure if it's right to play 4 Therapy or 4 Duress, might be better with 4 Duress. I just like Gitaxian Probe + Therapy alot! It really got potential to cripple the opponent. And for the Grim Tutor my priority is to get my duals, so till that happens i will not play Grim Tutor, maybe after.
Now we're at my real issue, the sideboarding! I dont know exactly what i want to play, and the sideboard guide on this guide seems a bit outdated. So my request is if any have a sideboard + guide/plan ready to use? I know there is alot of adjustment to the meta etc, so here is a list of a few decks i know is being played at my local:
Ad Nauseam Tendrils Combo
The Epic Storm
Nic Fit (Punishing and Scapeshift variants)
UR Delver
Esper Stoneblade
UW Standstill
Mono red Blood Moon deck (no clue what it is called, but T1 Blood Moon / chalice is commen)
MUD
Lands
Death and Taxes
Goblins
Shardless BUG
At the moment my sideboard is the following:
Sideboard: (11)
3x Xantid Swarm
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Chains of Vapor
2x Massacre
1x Tendrils of Agony
The rest of the spots I'm not sure about, but im thinking 2x Flusterstorm would be a good pick for the mirror. Storm is very popular at my local, so it might as well be a good idea to unclude 2x Surgical Extractions?
I need help for futher progress :)
Thanks alot
Welcome to ANT :smile:
So a few thoughts:
- Making duals your priority over something like Grim Tutor is 100 % correct. Sadly, this deck does not play particularily well with shocklands. Although in many situations it won't be an issue, it is only logical that a deck that seeks to win through Ad Nauseam a non-trivial amount of the time will suffer from shocklands.
- Sideboarding: It is hard to offer hard and fast rules but I'd say the following about certain cards:
- Xantid Swarm: this is mainly in our sideboard to come in against Show and Tell decks. If Show and Tell decks are very popular in your meta I could see going with three Swarms although I can't remember the last time I did so. I think usually two is the correct number. In Show and Tell free environments I've been happy to not run swarms at all.
The swarms can be brought in against Miracles to good effect as well, but it is always a gamble to bring them in against decks that can still be packing creature removal post-board. Some miracle pilots might board out every removal card, but many of them know that we are likely to have something to remove post-board, be that Dark Confidant, Young Pyromancer or Xantid Swarm. Let's be perfectly clear: spending your turn casting Xantid Swarm to have it be removed by a bolt or Swords to Plowshares is terrible. If it hadn't been Swarm but instead a discard spell or cantrip then it would have been +1 useful card in your hand and +1 dead card in they hand. For this reason many ANT players will not bring in swarm against bolt.deck. I sometimes will bring it in for one of the sideboarded matches (if I won game 1) but not for the other. This can confuse your opponent and the swarm - if unanswered - is insane against a hand full of dazes, pierces and flusterstorms.
- Abrupt Decay: This is 90 % in our board to remove Counterbalance. I like to also bring in a couple in combination with Massacre against blue hatebear decks unless I've seen wastelands game one. Again... if Miracles is everywhere I'd consider going up to four decays. If Miracles disappears, I'd consider playing none and just going up on Chain of Vapor. The latter scenario has not come up for as long as I can remember.
Just a couple of thoughts.
If I had to run ANT with shocks, I would drop Ad Nauseam for a 2nd Past in Flames and the Top for a md Empty the Warrens. It's defensible choice to begin with, and the decreased reliance on your life total plays goes nicely with having to play with shocklands.
Treasure Cruise is banned from Legacy , is this good or bad for us?
this, Gemstone Mine can't be searched for, that's the problem, 1 USea will ease the situation greatly so it's probably playable with shocklands but in a deck playing on an edge of life(time)/death it is a serious disadvantageQuote:
Originally Posted by Pox22
Banlist update is unfortunate for Ant, TC off the list with DTT still in is a net loss compared with september (S+T, Deathblade, UBG), Storm paradise lost...
this was the best metagame since printing of Thalia...Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefight
Nice Milton reference, Martin. I don't see a huge problem. ANT was a very good deck before Khans and it will be still one of the best after TC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
Yes, Gemstone Mine sucks big time. ^^
Sure will be, only I'd largely prefer facing UR and UWR to Team America and DeathbladeQuote:
Originally Posted by CabalTherapy
I think this will justify acquiring a Grim Tutor for my deck, as it becomes slightly more necessary, and less painful as we won't be facing that many Aggro decks like UR
slightly bad as UR delver takes a hit and people probably move back to rug.Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefight
the treasure cruise decks permission suite was typically force/ daze only, which is trivial to beat. all the decks pushed out by cruise decks now come back (BUG, RUG, CB) which all run more diverse permission/ disruption suites.
it will be slightly more difficult, depends on if you view this as a good or bad thing. RUG is still pretty even, BUG is atrocious. if BUG(hymn) comes back strong then storm is not so great of a choice .
So now with a new meta. Im gonna include the second top because the diacard is gonna come back.
I was willin to play tes due to his faster aproach vs the new rise of combo decks. But now with discard and wasteland back. Basic lands are immba cool.
Gonna still play tes friday and see what happens.
Death and taxes rise? Bug delver? Shardless? Miracles? Rug? Less omni more sneak and show?
Fight!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Togores
What is your mana base configuration for this next meta? would 2 basics do it? or would you play 2 island 1 swamp
Im gonna play my usual deck same configuration. Always think that 2 island is the shitt.
Storming opp is always the same.
@Nevilshute
So basically what you think of this:
2 Xantid Swams - i've seen both Omnitell and Sneak & Show in my local too
3 Abrupt Decay - should do as we only have 1 Miracle player?
1 Tendrils of Agony - against miracle
2 Massacre - against creature decks
3 Chains of Vapor - against hate
1 Empty the Warrens - against Meddling Mage
2 Surgical Extractions - mirror match (should be flusterstorm, but havent got those)
1 Empty spot, could be Sensei's Divining Top
I think i try with this, and figure out how that goes, and my second Undeground Sea is incomming. What should i go for next? Badlands, Bayou, Volcanic or Tutor?
I'm still a bit curious about the mana base. I've seen lists play Badlands and Tropical Island or Bayou and Tropical. what is the right card? Badlands is cheaper but Bayou is better?
The obviously is:
8 Fetch
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 ??
1 ??
Here we go again: Land discussion! My absolutely favourite topic to read. If you will read through the last pages you can find some posts about the configuration of lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by aRSKOG
In your SB which I find not optimal you may go with either Badlands or Bayou but for the most part Bayou is the better land.
@CabalTherapy
Can you give me an optimal sideboard for me if i was going to a major grandprix tomorrow? I'm searching for a up to date guideline or board which i can use to learn and understand the deck better. I don't think the current sideboard optien + guide available in this thread is the best optien.
I dont really need a guide just the 15 cards, i can figure out the rest :)
And thanks, i will go for Bayou i think cos that land is also played in TES, and i believe it's nice to have TES as another optien to play in Legacy as i already have ANT (missing 3 duals and a sideboard, but i will get there!)
Well, yours already looks good but I doubt that extra Storm spells are necessary in the SB. I know that some of the guys in here are in favour of an additional Tendrils against the former UR Delver or Miracles but I don't like them at all. (I mean the storm spells; toyed around with them a bit but they were not good) Empty the Warrens is for example a better MB card than SB because of its ability to slam some token and then ride them to victory. Postboard, the game gets harder (against most MUs) and there are plenty of situations where the game state doesn't allow for Goblins. Although I see the strenght of this cards against Miracles and other random stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by aRSKOG
But, there aren't the best 15 SB cards. It is a matter of different approaches to the MUs. I try to be more specific now:
Extirpate > Surgical Ex because in most cases the split second is needed. (Reanimator [Miracles]). One should be enough here.
I liked Flusterstorm but moved away from it in favour of City of Solitude and Tops for obviously other MUs. Your empty slot could be the already mentioned Top or maybe even a Pyroclasm depending on your meta. Also Massacre > Dread of Night and if you play with Grim Tutor, one Massacre should also be enough.
If you are looking for some guides/articles, Carsten's archive on scg should be a solid start. Keep on stormin'.
@CabalTherapyQuote:
Originally Posted by CabalTherapy
Do you think being fetchable is the what makes Bayou being more efficient over something like Gemstone mine?
In my short experience with the deck you don't require Green on the main board, still some people play one tropical in main, I would rather to leave the Tropical Island in sideboard, just like Ross Merriam configuration, having an extra fetchland is no brainer, Gemstone mine might not be fetchable but it does provide you with one of the colors required, being this blue, red or black at the time required.
At the end is just playstyle what makes the difference , badlands will support a more red sideboard like having bolts in it.
The mine sucks big time because of its limited activations. There are enough situations where you think something like that: "Oh shit, I have cantripped two times with the mine and now I have to decide on its last counter. Ritual or Cantrip or nothing...? I know this problem from TES which I played several times and basics/Tropical are simply superior. We want to be a grindy storm deck and imagine playing vs Miracles and thinking about 3 activations of a land. I am sure that Tropical Island + Bayou/Badlands is the correct configuration because it has proven itself in battle and you can still threat them as Island + Swamp/Mountain against decks without Wasteland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefight
We want 15 real SB cards. Playing lands in the board is a US thing. (no offense :tongue: )
How many times, limited activation will put you in that position, and in that scenario, that Gemnstone is actually a Bayou or Badlands, non blue, so cantripping is out of the equation, the line of play will completely change based on the fact that is your currently only land in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by CabalTherapy
I'm not defending Gemnstone Mine , I just want to be able to understand what makes it so awful :)
Also, what would be a real 15 SB card in this new (old) Meta ?
Maybe something like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefight
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Krosan Grip
2 Massacre
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Flusterstorm
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Ad Nauseam / Empty the Warrens (depending on MD)
You have 3 Decays, Top, Grip and possibly Swarm (+ AdN/EtW) for Miracles. Needle is an alternative to Top if you don't play MD Tops.
You have up to 7 removal slots to swap out for discard with Chain, Decay and Massacre. Decays are mainly for Chalice/CB, Massacres for UWR, Deathblade etc. and Chain for random hate.
Swarm + Flusterstorm help in the SnT/Griselbrand matchups. If they play Leyline you also board 1-2 Chains. Flusterstorm also fights Storm and discard decks.
Carpet is one of the better SB cards versus RUG Delver if it comes back, and 2 might be good if it does. It's also fine versus UWR Patriot.
hi everyone guys!
I'm back with a couple of questions and ideas :wink:
First of all, we are back at the september metagame, with Miracles (as usual), Team America, Deathblade, Sneak & Show. I think I will drop the 2 carpet of flowers from my board for sure, as they was there to fight UR delver, but they didn't convince me completely. I am now thinking about some cards to add in their place, maybe some krosan grip or city of solitude (I already play a 1-of of both), Flusterstorm didn't convince me, just like Cabal Therapy, if I understood well. I also thought about some Extirpates, however not more than 2, as they are useful in the mirror, vs. Miracles and vs. Reanimator. I don't want to board 5/6 cards against Reanimator.. :confused: The challenge will be the one I had when preparing for Ovino, in September, to find something useful for this meta, especially if it fights team america. There are so many options, but no one makes me say "I definitely want this one!".
A question came to my mind when goldfishing in a study-break, yesterday. When you open a starting hand with 1/2 lands (I had a fetch and a tropical), a ponder, a sensei's diving top, and other stuff, what you lead with? Ponder or Top? And why, so I can understand and learn that point :) I usually start with top, especially if I have a volcanic or a tropical island, to make them think I'm on Miracles or some sort of Rug Landstill. Also because I think that in the next turns I will need that 1 mana to play cantrips at sorcery speed that have an immediate impact, and I can set the top on their eot if I have a spare mana.
The last point is a card that came to my mind when playing the Miracles match-up: I noticed that, under balance-top when I fetch and have 3 mana, good players will activate top to find a vendilion, or another 3 drop to put it on top, thinking about a Krosan Grip is coming. That caught me off guard the first times, but I didn't have any Grip, I had city of solitude :eyebrow: . They didn't even think about the city but they thinking about grip caught it. So I thought about Teferi, mage of zhalfir. Is him already tested in Ant? We can play it on their eot, and they have just Fow to deal with it. He will protect our turn when we can go off. Or, if we aren't ready we can discard their plows and start beating with it. Maybe 5 mana is too much, I don't know! I will give him a try!
+1 Roberto
Trust us, Gemstone Mine is too bad.
We can't fetch it when we need green for example and it simply sucks because of it's limited availability.
Mine was a thing in 5 colour Tes but these days are gone
Mine was/is fine if you don't plan to ever go beyond turn 3 with your 3+ Colored deck (whatever it is). If you plan to make your third or forth landdrop (especially postboard), Gemstone is not fitting.
@Ponder/SDT/Fetch/Dual:
I would play SDT against unknown opponents, upkeep spin, cherrypick a card, fetch and Ponder to see the maximum of cards in the scenario.
Is it possible to steal techs from other decks? If yes, me would suggest Tarnished Citadel because Dredge plays it and it doesn't have counter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
15 lands
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Island
8 Fetch
2 Tarnished Citadel
I agree with this guy, Tarnished Citadel is way better than City of Brass or Mana Confluence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcelo65
Now with wasteland uwr and rug with wastelabd coming back is a good card.
Also I know using slots in sb for lands sucks. i never understand the americans plsying 2 islands and a trop sb.
But I have played blue control of vintage last month 5 lands im the sb. And worked good. XD
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...1880&type=cardQuote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...7307&type=card
Hello Sawatarix,Quote:
Originally Posted by sawatarix
Basically the best configuration for this new old meta would be:
4 Polluted delta
3 Misty Rain forest
1 Verdant Catacomb
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
??? Thinking about having at least 7 green cards in sideboard : 3 Abrupt decays, 2 Xantid and 2 Carpet ?
Seeing as how theres a lot of discussion regarding side-boarded lands (and some weird stereotype about Americans regarding that???) I decided I would throw in my 2 cents about the topic as I've played the sideboarded lands a few times (and have spent my whole life being an American).
I think the principle goal of sideboarding is to have a 75 that can produce an effective 60 for any postboard game. An extension of that goal is that you likely want a 60 does a generally good job against all matchups game 1, since Storm gets to ignore a lot of the opponent's cards anyway, you can just take a middling approach to all your deck proportions and then adjust as needed for preboard games. Thus, to justify sideboarded lands, you just have to consider when you would be adjusting to accommodate a demand for lands.
Heres a great example of sideboard lands in action, and it's not even storm:
Flores Blue
4 Jushi Apprentice
3 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
3 Keiga the Tide Star
4 Boomerang
3 Disrupting Shoal
4 Mana Leak
4 Remand
4 Hinder
2 Rewind
4 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Minamo School at Water’s Edge
1 Oboro Palace in the Clouds
2 Dimir Aqueduct
4 Quicksand
4 Watery Grave
1 Miren the Moaning Well
1 Mikokoro Center of the Sea
1 Shizo Death’s Storehouse
10 Island
Sideboard
4 Drift of Phantasm
4 Execute
3 Cranial Extraction
2 Dimir Aqueduct
2 Rewind
Note how Karoo lands provide even deeper mana development and pseudo card advantage... assuming you're playing slow as balls. However, tap-out blue IS slow-as-balls, and the utility of sideboard lands becomes evident the slower the matchup. One of my enduring memories of watching, iirc, the modern portion of 2013 worlds was a UWR mirror where the first 10 turns was "land, go" for both players.
How does this translate to Storm? Well, honestly, sometimes you've gotta slow the game down. If I'm locked under Counterbalance and 2 FoW, I have a lot to put together to break out of that, and I'd rather hit land drops to blank counters like Spell Pierce as opposed to discarding for hand size while I wait for some nut-7 to form. In a game that could drag to 10+ turns, I'd rather have lands as opposed to Petals or w/e, even if its a seemingly innocuous upgrade. The last time I sb'd lands, I ran 2 G sources SB and 14 lands md, because you have to race Miracles g1 and race combo often, and then in stoneblade/miracles, you downshift with sb lands and decay/massacre.
(regarding americans and sb lands, i can only guess that this stereotype came about because, historically, america's plan for addressing poor metagame developments has been to add more land. because america has more inevitability than most other countries, it makes sense for us to play the control role and load up on land. you could likely extend this to some of the fanatics regarding immigration control, as they merely want to keep the sb lands from creeping into the main and earning america a game loss)
I think we were just joking (at least I was) its just vurious that in a lot of decklist of americans events players sb lands while european dont do this.
Just a thing to note. No weird stuff.
Its because europeans want a may be slower deck but better sideboard while americans want a faster deck while worser sideboard. Also to note that americans usualy play 3 preordian or preordain and grim while europeans prefer a may be slower aproach like sensei (wich is also better with more lands md).
I was joking too, at least as far as the non-strategic part of the post. My point is I don't think a land is a bad sidedeck slot, so saying its a "worse" sideboard is kinda dismissive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Togores
1, doesn't matter now but why would you do that, UR doesnt attack your manabase and doesn't use SPQuote:
Originally Posted by Ghiwo
2, I always liked the card but could not fit more than 1 recently, too many card to bring vs Miracles... I also might go up to 2 now getting rid of my lonely CoV, dunno yet
3, I'd mimic Lemnear
4, never happened to me, Grip is so marginal in legacy and even more in Ant, but I try to play around 3CC
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by sawatarix
I used to play 2 G now 1 G in the board, definitely not a wasted slot, conscious decision that I prefer 9th fetch to a nonbasic Island, useful vs StifleWaste decks and Miracles as a 16th land tooQuote:
Originally Posted by Togores
There are two very good reasons to sideboard lands:
1) There are a lot of powerful lands in legacy that you would want to sideboard, but never want to draw game 1. Karakas is the best example of this, but there are certainly others in different circumstances.
2) Game 1 with a combo deck is designed to present the most focused, linear version of the strategy. Sideboarding dilutes the opponents game plan, forcing them to slow their game plan down by having answers, and in return, combo decks require answers to their answers. Games go longer, and having more lands better equips you to play a longer game.
That said, right now I don't see a very good reason to sideboard additional lands, but if I had a 14 card sideboard I'd love another green land in the board.
I can see S&T variants with SB Boseiju to battle through counters or Counterbalance as well as SB lands being used to combat mana denial like Daze or Wasteland if your deck is soft to that. I guess it depends how you look at those SB slots. If you think beyond "manasources" and see them as tools to combat Resistors (Thalia, Thorn), Taxing counters or Landdestruction, those may be valid SB slotsQuote:
Originally Posted by Royce Walter
It's the same concept that is used in vintage. Legacy storm variants always have 2 to 3 basic lands in the sb for the stax matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
By the time I played Vintage TPS (4 Trinishpheres were still legal), I played Wastelands in the SB to harass Workshops and lock them under their own Spheres, while they also delivered mana to break out from the Spheres with a Rebuild. Was also nice to slow down Dredge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaam
Here's a little primer for ANT for the uninitiated!
http://www.moxboardinghouse.com/medi...-legacy-storm/
Nice video, an ideal guide for people who are curious about the storm mechanics.
If i had more time i could imagine to record some of my games to share them with you.
There need to be more discussion material about in game decisions because most storm player start to struggle when there is any kind of disruption on the other side of the table.
I believe that everybody is able to execute a past in flames loop or an ad nauseam kill easily but the games were your opponent is able to defend him/herself are actually way more interesting and fun to play.
There are basically 2 questions:
- Can i go off now or do i have to search for x ? What exactly i am looking for?
- I have all the tools now but how do i sequence my spells to play around daze/spell pierce/flusterstorm/vendillion clique/surgical extraction/...?
By the way, I'm going to join a big event this weekend in Tübingen,germany.
There are alreay a bunch of dual lands in the price pool so i hope to do well this time.
Wish me luck.
(The comeback of Team America and Jund caused me to play a double Ad Nauseam List again with sb swap to grinding station against uwr delver and canadian).Additionally i won't have that much sleep the night before, i have it in my gut feeling.
It's still saturday night...
Anyway, wish me luck ;)
Hey everyone, long time lurker of this thread and first post here. Right now I am a broke student and can't afford a Grim Tutor at the moment, and in place I've been using Death Wish. I just wanted to share some of my thoughts/experiences with it so far. In all the games that I have cast it, the life loss has not mattered. As long as I have one left and cast Tendrils for 20 or more, it's fine. One thing that has been really nice is being able to use the sideboard similar to TES and grab Empty, PiF, Tendrils, or even Chain of Vapor if I'm in a pinch. I don't think this idea is original, but I wanted to share with everyone my thoughts on it. What does everyone here think about it?