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I liked Hoots when I played him. I'm wondering if you keep Mongoose, but trim Goyf down like Jonathan did (congrats man! Too bad I couldn't come back this time and chateau it up like last time ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadeye_Mongoose
Why? Goyf costs 2, all your other threats cost 1 allowing you to keep mana up. 2 Goyf 2 Mandrills would give nice balance, and lower the curve a bit (pseudo lower, when are you casting Hoots McGoots for more than one?)
-Matt
Personally speaking I think this list is heavily meta gamed. It beats or at least gives a better fighting chance vs some of the harder match ups primarily speaking Eldrazi and Shardless Bug. It should also improve the combo match up to some extent I think since your 1 drop goose that doesn't really do anything is now a 5/5 the turn it hits around turn 4 and puts a lot of pressure on them. That's assuming you hit the cantrips needed to fuel it since counters will rot in your hand until you apply pressure to the combo player so they actually have to do something.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
What I don't like about this and the 4c delver lists is it seems much worse vs miracles which is just such a difficult match up. That match up is better than Eldrazi and Shardless, but that's only because of how good goose is. I honestly think it's no better or worse than a traditional list. The defining question you should ask yourself to decide which of these 3 lists (traditional Canadian threshold, Gianluca Gazzola's list from Prague or Daniel Sigorini's 4c RUG/BUG delver hybrid) is: what decks do I want to hate on? Those being miracles, Shardless BUG or other fair decks, but have a worse mana base. Respectively speaking that is. All these lists have their advantages ranging from goose, mandrills dodging decay and the "swiss army knife" of delver decks. It just depends which advantage you think will win the day.
Which is exactly what I've been saying in regards to there being justification for ALL flavors of Delver. It's all a matter of metagame expectations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Contract Killer
Some people have been saying that "RUG Delver is dead" and has been supplanted by Grixis, but obviously the GP results of myself and others (including especially the pilots at GP Prague) proved that Nimble Mongoose and Stifle still have incredible strength and worthwhile applications in fighting the current meta-game. And in fact, part of my justification for running RUG instead of Grixis or BUG/4c was because of its perception as being "dead" or "out-dated", thus facing opponents who were unfamiliar with it or at least not expecting it (and certainly not having as many sideboard tools to fight it). I got SOOOOO many people with Stifle after playing an innocuous-looking Flooded Strand on turn 1 and passing. And Stifle won me quite a few games, especially in otherwise "impossible" matchups including RG Lands and BGRw Loam. Nimble Mongoose especially was key to winning several matches where any other creature would've lost the game.
Deathrite Shaman is an incredible card, no doubt about it. But against certain decks, UWr Miracles especially, Nimble Mongoose is often better due to blanking targeted removal. And for Terminus, you get to run 4x Stifle in addition to your other counters.
I don't expect RUG Delver to become the most popular Delver deck in the near future (and perhaps it won't be perceived as "Tier 1" again), and I expect people to continue jamming Grixis. But that's actually to our advantage, especially for as long as Miracles remains the king of the format. Being the "underdog" and not having a gigantic target on your head works to your advantage in a tournament setting.
Your rationale makes sense, but honestly Goyf is just so great in dealing with aggressive decks. He's a fire-and-forget, easy-peasy 2-drop. You can deploy multiple copies in the early game. Him being a 4/5 or bigger is relevant in a lot of matchups, despite being fragile to Abrupt Decay and Graveyard hate (well, Hooters are too, but not if deployed prior). I think against Eldrazi especially where it's likely that he'll grow to 5/6+, you want Goyf over Mandrills for sure. Burn too, where you really want your anti-creature wall deployed ASAP.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
The other major issue is that the Mongoose isn't friends with the Monkies; both require our graveyard in contradictory ways.
But again, metagame expecations and etc. I suppose a deck running both of these threats (in addition to Delver) would be pretty good in blanking Abrupt Decay and Lightning Bolt. Perhaps such a list would want to run Thought Scour to help fuel both critters' graveyard requisites.
By the way, here are the modifications I would make to the deck list now that I have had 15 rounds of Grand Prix experience with the deck:
Main-Deck (60)
18 Lands:
8 Fetch-lands (4 Strand, 4 Delta -- to provide the least information. Wooded Foothills + no turn 1 play is practically a dead-giveaway that you're on RUG)
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
12 Creatures:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique
30 Spells:
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
1 Dismember
Sideboard (15)
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Forked Bolt (or Dismember if big creature decks are abundant)
1 Winter Orb
2 Rough // Tumble
2 Submerge
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Ancient Grudge (or 1/1 split with Destructive Revelry, maybe Krosan Grip depending on whether you expect enchantments to be around)
1 Flex Slot*
The flex slot can be any of the following depending on the expected metagame: a 2nd Sulfur Elemental for lots of Death and Taxes; a True-Name Nemesis if midrange decks are expected; Surgical Extraction if Loam, PFire and similar or graveyard-centric decks are expected; Sylvan Library if there is a lot of control players and Swords to Plowshares in general; another Winter Orb if you *know* there is going to be a ton of Miracles and decks like RG Lands; another Pyroblast if you expect a lot of Show and Tell, High Tide, Miracles, Merfolk and other Blue decks; another Flusterstorm or perhaps Invasive Surgery if combo that casts Sorceries are prevalent; more removal of your choice depending on what decks are popular (sometimes a 3rd Rough//Tumble is amazing); Price of Progress if you have a local Lands player that needs to be defeated; Null Rod or Cursed Totem; etc... Plenty of options, and all justifiable.
Justification for changes to main and SB:
First of all, realize that there does seem to be a difference between the American and European meta-games, and also there's a difference between what is played online versus in real life ('paper'). So many of the changes might not make sense for someone across the pond; my perspective is as someone playing in the Northeast United States.
3 Tarmogoyf seemed to be enough, though I occasionally found myself sometimes digging for another threat in the late game for the last few points of damage. Rather than simply playing the 4th Tarmogoyf, I'd rather play something that ignores GY hate, is evasive, has a ton of utility, and is instant speed. Clique fits the bill perfectly and I'd imagine would rarely be sided out. I suppose a True-Name Nemesis could be justifiable in a particular type of meta, but broadly speaking Clique is just a better option. Its disruption is particularly helpful, but I think it's the flying + instant speed that makes it the best choice.
2 Dismember became a 1/1 split with Forked Bolt. We can really only afford to cast 1 dismember in most games against aggressive decks, and Forked Bolt tends to be able to hit most of the early-game creatures we care about with the potential for 2-for-1'ing AND occasionally closing out the game for the last 2 bits of damage. Being a sorcery, it also helps grow your Goyfs in case you/your opponent hasn't cast Ponder yet. If you really think you're going to need more copies of Dismember instead of Bolt, it's justifiable to go back to the original configuration or drop something else for the 2nd copy.
Regarding the slight changes in the counterspell configuration: I found Counterspell itself difficult to cast at opportune times. Holding up 2 mana is difficult in the early game while still deploying threats/killing opposing creatures. I will grant that the card becomes amazing as the game goes on, but it's typically the early game that is most critical for us. As for the 2/2 split of Snare and Pierce: I suppose you could go 3/1 split for more Spell Snare as the card is VERY good. But I did occasionally find myself siding it out at times, and it doesn't hit quite the same range of targets as Pierce. Another possibility would be to cut a Stifle or Daze for the 3rd Spell Snare (probably Stifle), as Stifle seemed to be the most frequently sided out card. But the thing about Stifle and Daze is that you always want to see them early, not later, so maxing out at 4 gives you the best chance of that happening.
I think I previously explained in this thread why I cut Winter Orb from the main deck for the 3rd Tarmogoyf. It's great in a particular type of metagame, but the American meta is so broad that I just couldn't justify the possibility of playing 1 dead card and needed my main 60 to be as broadly versatile as possible. That all said, it *is* a house in the matchups you bring it in against so I didn't drop it completely.
The sideboard is fairly similar to the original. I cut down to 2 Red Blasts simply because Flusterstorm seems to have broader applications. Gravedigger's Cage made the cut because it is just that versatile, and I want more hate for Elves specifically. This is also why I have another Forked Bolt in there (mainly Elves, but D&T as well). Pithing Needle I feel deserves a slot, as it saved my ass many a time in the Grand Prix and is broadly versatile -- especially useful as a turn 1 answer to Aether Vial. Submerge is so good in the matchups you bring it in, 2 feels like the minimum number unless you KNEW it wouldn't be applicable. Same deal with Rough//Tumble -- a one-sided Wrath effect is needed against the various small-creature strategies, and 2 copies is the bare minimum. Ancient Grudge is needed to deal with artifacts and is nice to have around to kill Baleful Strix, Shardless Agent, Inkmoth Nexus and similar -- 2 copies again feels like the minimum number, especially helpful if you end up facing a deck packing Chalice of the Void.
I only have 1 slot devoted to Winter Orb at the moment. Believe me, I *know* how good the card is. When it's good. But that's the thing; in 15 rounds of Legacy I actually only brought it in a few times and actually never ended up resolving it the entire tournament (though it certainly would have helped against some of the matches where I brough it in; I beat them anyways without it though). I think if you *know* for a fact that you are going to face decks like Miracles or RG Lands multiple times, devoting more than 1 slot to this card is completely justifiable. Otherwise, a miser's copy seems adequate for the time being.
Now, onto the big one... 1 Sulfur Elemental I feel is just a necessary card right now, and 1 is the bare minimum and I am actually running a 2nd copy in the flex slot for now. I ran into D&T FOUR times on Day 1, and the deck was around in high numbers for Day 2. RUG has a really tough time beating this deck without getting extremely lucky, so having a creature that can strike thru Thalia/Wingmare at instant speed (necessary if they're locking you down with upkeep Port activations) is awesome, especially seeings as like practically all of their major creatures have 1 toughness. Even still, it can be a rough matchup depending on whether they run a bunch of Mirran Crusaders and/or Serra Avengers, but hopefully you'll have timely Bolts for those. While 1 resolved copy can steal the game, it's not guaranteed that you'll find it in a timely fashion. They're also capable of killing it and rebuilding their board state. So that's why I am running 2 right now.
It's actually also really nice to have against Miracles and combo decks, as not only does it ignore Rest in Peace and has Split Second, it can be deployed at EOT so as to keep your mana available for countering things on their main phases. There are also certain combo decks that like to bring in Blood Moon. While it's certainly not a guarantee, being able to at least deploy a threat under Moon (while theoretically being able to stop them from going off with the help of Force of Will) is a nice bonus.
I mentioned in this thread earlier why I think we will continue seeing more and more Death and Taxes: the deck is legitimately competitive and currently considered Tier 1; it has game against a lot of the other competitive decks in the format; it is also one of the more 'affordable' options for newer players to buy into Legacy, especially given that some of the key cards have recently been reprinted (e.g. Karakas, Wasteland, etc.). As one of RUG's most difficult matchups, I simply don't think it's a deck you can ignore if you play in the NE USA due to its prevalence. Thus, the justification for 2 Sulfur Elementals.
At some point, I might write up a tournament report for Grand Prix Columbus (I ended 11-4, but outside of the top 64 due to tie-breakers), as I think it would also help illustrate how I came to these conclusions and justifications for modifying the deck.
Report is online:
#GPPrague 2016 Report — 24th at 12-3 with Canadian Threshold
Congrats on the finish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander
I see that you also only faced Miracles a few times in the GP (whereas I never faced the matchup at all). Do you *still* think main decking the Winter Orb is essential, or that 3 Orbs in the 75 is necessary? In your report, there is no mention of the card being cast to good effect in any Game 1s, and there also seems to be quite a few occasions where you are only bringing in 1 additional copy (instead of 2) in the SB games. Given these factors, wouldn't it perhaps make sense to either 1) move one of your other SB slots from the board to the main instead of playing the main deck Winter Orb (perhaps TNN?), or 2) change the 2nd Orb in the SB to something else?
Also, seems you lucked out by dodging Death and Taxes and Elves. While TNN is quite helpful against DNT, I explained previously why I think at least 1 Sulfur Elemental is needed in the board to address this matchup. I also think that with the American metagame having so many decks that run small creatures, splitting a Dismember for a Forked Bolt seems justifiable, and having a 2nd in the board is especially helpful for DNT, Elves, Infect, Goblins, Burn, Merfolk, etc. Casting Dismember is just too costly against some of these decks that threaten our life total, and Forked Bolt can occasionally nab a 2-for-1 and occasionally close out the game for the last 2 damage. Additionally, it's another Sorcery for growing Tarmogoyf.
But again, this might not be applicable to the European metagame which seems to have a much heavier combo presence as well as perhaps a higher saturation of Miracles.
I was actually surrounded by Miracles for the entirety of day two; I even had several mirrors happening next to me. I still believe maindeck Orb is the way to go. You want a threat that's not a creature and Orb does that better than Library in many matchups.
The reason there's no mention of game one Orbs is because I only drew it once before sideboarding, which was against Burn in round three where I was already super dead.
If there isn't too much Miracles, I can see cutting the third Orb, but I just really want to resolve one against them. Given how good it also is against Life from the Loam and AEther vial strategies, three is very reasonable. If I was going to cut a copy, I'd probably go back to Painful Truths though.
I don't see any problems with Death & Taxes. Between Delvers, Orbs, Grudges and True-Names, the matchup is quite good with my list.
Forked Bolt vs. Dismember is something I toy around with on Magic Online. Definitely a metagame call. For the Grand Prix, I valued the ability to kill Tarmogoyfs and Eldrazis highly, which worked out nicely.
Great write-up, thanks for doing that. Tough luck in rounds 12 and 13. You saw a pretty wide variety of decks, but 3 Eldrazi and 2 Miracles sounds about right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander
@Jonathan Alexander
Regarding Death and Taxes (yes, I still want to talk about it): I played essentially the same 75 as you in Grand Prix Columbus, except with the following variations: 3 Tarmogoyf in the main (no Winter Orb main except the 2 in the SB), otherwise same main deck 60; my SB was exactly the same as yours except instead of the Surgical Extraction I opted for a Sylvan Library. (Oh, and I guess you could also count me running a Red Elemental Blast over the 3rd Pyroblast as a variation, though extremely minor).
So in all actuality, my 75 was probably slightly *better* configured to take on DNT, given that I had another Tarmogoyf and a powerful enchantment that can capitalize on them running Swords to Plowshares.
And yet I still had major problems against Death and Taxes.
Look, if everything lines up perfectly and we are able to counter the first Aether Vial, answer the first Mom, and land a timely Rough // Tumble, it all goes fine and well. Even better if we can get a TNN on-board to fend off whatever threat they have and negate their ground forces. In testing, it felt close to a 50/50 matchup and I figured if I faced the deck once or twice in the tournament I'd be fine.
But I faced it FOUR times and the deck was all over the place, and while I don't have the exact numbers, it seemed to be perhaps just as if not perhaps MORE prevalent than Miracles.
Maybe it was just bad luck, maybe it was just the random variations of the lists I played against that ran perhaps a higher-than-usual number of Flickerwisp and/or Serra Avenger and/or Mirran Crusader... but in any case, I felt horribly outclassed by the deck and suffered 3 losses to the archetype (the other loss came from BG Grindy Elves, another deck that is a TERRIBLE matchup but can be made much better if fought on a similar axis, i.e. cheap and effective removal).
So I disagree with your assessment that 2 TNN and 2 Ancient Grudge are enough to 'get there' (at least consistently) against Death and Taxes. I'm not going to keep repeating myself in terms of why I think that this deck is just as important to consider as UWr Miracles in terms of adjusting your deck for the current metagame, but needless to say D&T's presence and my experiences led to me adjusting my 75 to have a few more answers to this archetype.
Your mileage may vary, but I think you're going to have a harder time than you expect if you end up running into a decent D&T pilot.
I was unaware it worked well against vial. Wouldn't vial just enable them to play around it better than you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander
Nvm I'm dumb (edit)
I'll be trying the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
18 Lands:
8 Fetch-lands (4 Strand, 4 Delta -- to provide the least information)
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
11 Creatures:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
31 Spells:
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Fire/Ice (tricky business with Winter Orb when necessary)
1 Dismember
1 Winter Orb
Sideboard (15)
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 TNN
1 Cursed Totem (Fuckin' Elves, DnT, and such)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Winter Orb
2 Rough // Tumble
1 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
1 Krosan Grip/Grudge
Also known as “the 59-card main deck special”.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
wcm8, how do you board against them? I disagree that your setup is better against them than mine, I think Tarmogoyf is not good in the matchup.
Dnt player checking in:
Can confirm I don't give a shit about tarmogoyf.
Winter orb is probably better against me, especially if vial is not down. If I don't have vial I have to tap out. If I tap out winter orb = ggwp.
I only really care about delver and to a much lesser extent nimble mongoose. I don't mind chumping goyf (especially g1) since revoked is basically a goyf-fog on a stick. If you really want to beat DnT play a lavamancer main deck with hooting mandrils, clique and delver.
Against D&T I boarded thusly:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander
+2 Ancient Grudge
+2 Rough // Tumble
+2 TNN
+2 Winter Orb
+1 Sylvan Library
-4 Stifle (it's usage is fairly limited in this matchup; I'd rather play other cards. Although it *did* win me the game 1 against my one D&T victory at the GP)
-1 Spell Pierce
-1 Counterspell
-3 Force of Will/Daze (depending on whether draw or play) -- my main concern is a turn 1 Vial. Other stuff, even a turn 1 Mom to some extent can be dealt with later or ignored outright (if Delver/TNN is on-board). I can also assume that they will probably draw 1 of their 4 Cavern of Souls at some point.
I kept Tarmogoyf in because it can either force them to chump block or activate Mom (opening a window for Red Removal), and unless they land a Rest in Peace the guy tends to get huge in this matchup (5/6 or bigger, due to presence of Enchantments and Artifacts). We are fighting on the board, not the stack so I side out mostly counters. Plus, since I was running Sylvan Library, I kind of *wanted* them to StP my Goyfs to give me more life/breathing room, and/or help with Dismember and/or Sylvan Library. I agree that Goyf is not the ideal creature (*especially if your opponent happens to draw and resolve his 1-of REST IN PEACE the turn before you drew your SPELL SNARE...), but in general I think Goyf would tend to be more useful than the cards I was siding out.
The configuration of your 75 needs to line up perfectly to consistently beat D&T in 3 games. Winter Orb is actually a liability if they've resolved an Aether Vial or happen to just have drawn way more Wastes/Ports than you. I guess you're on the plan of keeping more counterspells in, but that doesn't tend to work out too well against Cavern of Souls and is also pretty bad against Thalia + Port, where they can tap you down before they start their turn to prevent you from casting it.
Look, like I said, maybe it was just bad beats (and to some extent it was: mulling to 6 or 5 and being on the draw certainly doesn't help matters), and maybe it was just the particular weirdness of the D&T configurations I faced (the first one I lost to actually had a Blue splash for Geist of St. Traft + SB Meddling Mage; it was double Geist vial'd in at EOT that killed me in a close Game 3 that I would've won on the back-swing. Some of the other ones I faced seemed to have a particularly high volume of Vryn Wingmare (3-4, not typical) + Flickerwisp + Mirran Crusader (not always present in each list) + Serra Avenger (same deal), so maybe against "normal" builds of D&T your 75 will perform alright).
But you can't deny that opting for 2 Dismember is going to make your Game 1s particularly bad if they're ahead (whereas Forked Bolt could, at least in theory, bring you back to parity), and that the SB you have is not an ideal configuration for beating this matchup. I also felt like GBx Elves was another poor matchup due to lack of enough removal, and against them we at least get to bring in Submerge!
In my opinion, we are already fairly favored against Miracles and most brands of Combo game 1. Sure, we should play some additional sideboard slots for these matchups, but ESPECIALLY in the American metagame where decks with small creatures like D&T, Elves, Burn, Merfolk, Goblins, Stoneblade, UGx Infect, Delver, etc. are still extremely prevalent AND because of my prediction that D&T will increase in popularity as a "gateway" Legacy deck for Format-newcomers, we can't forget to have some slots for these sort of matchups that are definitely a bit more difficult to win, typically speaking. They *are* winnable matchups, but only if we take them seriously and devote a few additional slots towards beating them.
I would much rather spend a few sideboard/maindeck slots on making a 40-60 matchup closer to 50-50 or even 60-40 than spend those slots on making a matchup that is already favoring us like 70-30 into 80-20 (these are all just rough estimates to illustrate the point, not definitive %'s).
Now, maybe the "European metagame" is more "highly-evolved" and you are more likely to face "advanced" decks round after round, but in the Northeast US, especially for a Grand Prix where you're bound to see a hodgepodge of decks of all sorts but especially leaning towards those utilizing small creatures, you need to take that into account when configuring your RUG Delver list.
And I think my conclusions are further verified when you take a look at the RUG Delver lists (yours aside) that actually made top 32 at both the European and American Grand Prixs: they all played more slots of removal and took decks like D&T more seriously. Sulfur Elemental specifically shows up in some of these lists.
Anyways, that's just based on my conclusions and understanding of the Format. I'd be curious to read what your response is.
Cursed Totem was a card I was considering. It really does help out a TON versus Elves and D&T, as well as the occasional GWx Maverick player you might encounter. I think you definitely want Ancient Grudge over Krosan Grip though as a way to combat Aether Vial -- costing 2 instead of 3 is huge, especially against D&T. The flashback is also relevant if they have a second Vial or manage to get an Equipment on the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I like that in addition to Pithing Needle you're running Null Rod to shut off all Artifacts. This was another card I was strongly considering for the GP.
Life from the Loam you might find to be rather slow and clunky. A lot of us RUG Delver players have used it in the past, but honestly I think you might just be better off playing the 2nd Winter Orb as a way of combating Land-based strategies. Or perhaps even Price of Progress if you're gunning for RG Lands.
I would definitely recommend finding room for a Sulfur Elemental or two if D&T is played in your locality. Perhaps an easy cut would be the 2nd TNN?
Giving some serious thought about Hooting Mandrills over Nimble Mongoose.
Here's a summary of all the advantages and disadvantages I can think of between the two:
Nimble Mongoose:
+ Shroud: immunity to ALL targeted removal. This and being a 3/3 (most of the time, or at least eventually) is what makes Mongoose a staple of the archetype.
+ only costs 1-mana; can be deployed on turn 1
+ has obvious synergy with the Stifle/Daze/Wasteland plan
+ multiple copies have no dys-syngery and can be deployed together
+ Aesthetically pleasing: beautiful, classic and iconic artwork by Terese Nielsen in the old border that also harkens back to nostalgic days of early MtG and has been played competitively since the card was first printed way back in 2001, along with the utilization of many other cards in the deck that are OLD (e.g. Lightning Bolt, Dual Lands, Brainstorm, FoW, etc.) to beat NEW strategies
- requires time to hit Threshold and thus be a legitimate threat
- tends to occasionally create some awkward scenarios with Rough//Tumble, where you ideally want to cast it NOW but doing so would kill off your un-thresh'ed mongoose
- Threshold can be attacked even game 1 vs. Deathrite Shaman, Scooze, etc.
- dies to more non-targeted removal that Mandrills could survive (e.g. if not yet threshold: Golgari Charm, Pyroclasm; Anger of the Gods; Toxic Deluge for 3, etc.)
- a 3/3 is a much slower clock than a 4/4. Assuming no other damage, that's 7 turns (7 x 3 = 21) versus 5 turns (4 x 5 = 20). Given the prevalence of FoW, Gitaxian Probe, Fetchlands and Bolts, it's also more likely that Mandrills would only need 4 or less swings.
- Rest in Peace will keep Mongoose small and mostly irrelevant whereas an already-deployed Mandrills is still a 4/4
- at 1cmc, he is more vulnerable to being countered by Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void, and being hit by Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed, Ratchet Bomb, etc.
- the lack of Trample is relevant at times, e.g. versus Mother of Runes, Elves.dec, etc.
- 4 Tarmogoyf alone is not enough to justify running Stubborn Denial
- in the mirror, is a smaller threat versus Mandrills. Thus, the RUG deck playing Mandrills over Mongoose is probably favored.
Hooting Mandrills:
+ is a 4/4 threat that with the help of Delve, can be cost for a very low mana cost, often 1 or 2. In a REALLY long game, could realistically be hard cast for full mana.
+ is *always* a 4/4, not affected by graveyard modulations once he's been cast
+ the Delve aspect can be used strategically to deny your opponent's Scooze/DRS/whatever with targets, and can also be used to reduce the size of an opposing Tarmogoyf
+ with 4 toughness and a CMC of 6, dodges *many* common forms of targeted removal: Lightning Bolt, Abrupt Decay, Forked Bolt
+ CMC of 6 makes him get thru Counterbalance and Chalice @1; dodges CMC-centric removal like Engineered Explosives, etc. (as previously mentioned)
+ along with Tarmogoyf, Stubborn Denial becomes a legitimate consideration
+ once deployed, essentially ignores Graveyard Hate. You can often cast him *prior* to Rest in Peace or Relic of Progenitus being factors.
+ Trample is surprisingly relevant -- especially helpful against decks like Elves or DNT.
+ as previously mentioned, 4 power is a significantly more immediate and faster clock than 3 power
+ can survive a lot of the non-targeted removal that Mongoose *would* die to like Golgari Charm, Firespout, etc. (as previously mentioned)
+ Umezawa's Jitte becomes a legitimate sideboard option since now all of your threats can hold it
+ Rough//Tumble can be cast whenever, unflipped Delvers aside
- Realistically, can only be cast a bit later on once you have enough cards to Delve away. Turn 3 is likely the absolute earliest you can resolve him (and doing so might have you tapped out), whereas with Mongoose sometimes you can deploy it turn 1 and then just focus the rest of your resources towards instant-speed disruption.
- is much harder to cast multiple copies after the first one is cast -- so probably better to play only 2-3 copies unless your list can help support the full playset via Thought Scour, Gitaxian Probe, etc.
- without Shroud, he gets hit by many forms of common removal, e.g. Submerge, Swords to Plowshares, Jace's -2 unsummon, etc. In general, often a worse threat against Miracles than Mongoose a lot of the time since StP + Snapcaster is now at full power
- if graveyard hate is deployed early, it's' hard to cast him at all
- casting him can sometimes have a negative effect on your own Tarmogoyfs
- not only does he get hit by Submerge, but this can effectively make it impossible to re-cast him if you don't have a full-enough graveyard. Same issue as with Jace's -2 unsummon.
- Aesthetically Repugnant: Ugly, modern frame with forgettable/mediocre artwork that has no nostalgic association and is another reminder that Power Creep in creatures advances further and further every year (similarly applies to Gurmag Angler)
So I guess aesthetics aside, it really comes down to whether you want advantage against control decks packing Swords of Plowshares, or if you'd rather have a few more percentage points against decks playing Bolt/Decay as their removal of choice and want to take advantage of some of the other incidentals (e.g. Stubborn Denial, etc.)
I'd be okay cutting Grip for Grudge, and Loam for a Sulfur Elemental, since I'm already playing two Orbs.
You should post a picture of your deck once assembled, since I seem to recall you being the owner of a bunch of pimp Beta cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I am playing some pimp in my list as well (no Foils though, not a fan of them -- the only foils being used are the Insectile Aberattions that I have sleeved in a different colored sleeve to lay over my Delvers when they flip). Black-bordered old-style Lightning Bolt, black-bordered GERMAN Winter Orb ("Frostbringer"); Beta Red Elemental Blasts, first-edition printing of all cards (except Mercadian Masques Brainstorm for * ~ A E S T H E T I C S ~ *; also I like the new Daze artwork better than the old one). I'll have to post a picture myself here shortly.
I think it'll take a few days until I'm going to properly reply to your posts, wcm8.
I just wanted to drop by and ask if you guys are interested in a more thorough article on my deck than what I've written so far. I'm talking card choices, sideboarding and game plans. Should I do a write-up?
The headers are wrong, the numbers inside are correct. My bad ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by now
Yes. It would be greatly appreciated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander
So here is my short report from GP Prague.
I went x-1-6 with this list:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Hooting Mandrills
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Tarfire
3 Stubborn Denial
4 Stifle
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 2 Rough // Tumble
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Destructive Revelry
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
I play tarfires to get goyfs bigger than anglers and smashers, and also to get him big fast to enable stubborn denial. I play probes to get the monkeys out fast, while also giving me critical information. Probes also help to get sorcery in GY and not just rely on ponders.
1: Elves 2-0
Bolts and submerges goes a long way, especially submerging a turn 1 arbor, which is a huge tempo play. Mandrills also shuts off their chump block + bounce trick while also enabeling stubborn denial to be a hard counter for Order. I didn't even draw Rough/Tumble.
2: Painter 2-0
I just delver him out while he walks right into my dazes every turn.
3: Miracles 2-1
I drew sylvan both post games, which made me able to grind him out. Mandrills + Stubborn denial is amazing in this MU.
4: Ant 1-2
Really close games.
5: BUG Delver (with strixes and snapcasters) 0-2
I'm otp and starts with a t1 delver into mana denial, but he just keeps drawing lands and finally finds a decay for my delver, and while I cantrip for more creatures he lands a strix and right after a goyf. I find my own goyf, but he snaps back the decay. In g2 he just murders me.
6: Belcher 2-0
This MU is really easy for RUG
7: Grixis Delver 2-0
I don't think I have ever lost to this deck.
8: 4c Delver 1-2
G1 he plays an early sylvan library and simply outgrinds me. In g2 I go full mana denial ftw. In g3 I revealed a submerge for my delver, and I already had another submerge in hand. He killed my delver fast and he never played a trop for the rest of the game. He simply played out his goyfs from drs while I drew nothing else relevant.
9: Elves 2-1
Same as round 1, and also with no help from rough.
10: Reanimator 0-2
I don't know what he is on and I go t1 delver with fow+blue card in hand. He goes off and reanimates griselbrand t1 and dazes my fow.
In g2 he plays a pack rat. I only had 2 bolts left in the deck and I luckily had one in hand, so I bolt the rat, but he fows and I fow back. Next turn he exhumes the rat and the board goes out of hand, while my delever doesn't transform for 10 turns and I only draw lands.
11: Jund 1-1
G1 took too long and I should have conceded after he landed a sylvan library. I delver him out g2, but there is no time left for g3.
12: DnT 2-1
This is a really good MU with this version of the deck.
13: Shardless 2-0
Same as with DnT.
14: NicFit 0-2
He just have the perfect start both games, with explorer into therapy and I can't interact with him at all.
15: Painter 0-2
He is otp and plays t1 blood moon. I have no answers so I concede. In g2 I keep a hand with lands ponder, bs and probe. I probe him and see that he can play an ensnaring bridge t1. I ponder and find a revelry, but he topdecks a blood moon and play that instead. I concede again. Shortest round I have played in my life.
I was very happy with mandrills, which was very good for me the whole weekend. The changes I have done to the list afterwards is to replace a surgical with a cage to help with the storm and nicfit matchups.
Thanks for sharing as well the discussion earlier. As I said, I will definitely give Mandrills some testing.
JA, looking forward to your report and responses to the discussion.
Same props for everyone else contributing to the thread lately. I think we can collectively figure out an ideal configuration for this deck and bring it back to Tier 1 status. Although, being off the radar has its benefits too :)
After 3-0 the legacy local league on thursday I went 1-4 today in a MKM series trial. Felt so bad... I think a rest in peace coming from maverick in my game 3 of the first match tilted me for the whole tournament. Will try to write a report tomorrow.
The best answers to Rest in Peace are to simply counter it: Daze, Force of Will, Spell Pierce, but especially Spell Snare are your friend (spell snare is *amazing* right now, and deserves a minimum of 2 slots., and running 3 or 4 is completely justifiable as well). But failing that, you can use Stifle to keep your current Goyfs happy and/or maintain Threshold for your Mongoose (or have some cards for an eventual Hooting Mandrills summoning). Alternatively, you can rebuild your yard post-RiP by using Destructive Revelry, Krosan Grip, etc...
It's been quite some time since I've used it, but I am also a fan of Seal of Primordium. I used to play it in my older Team America list (back in the 4 Goyf/4 Tombstalker/4 Sinkhole/4 Snuff Out days), but honestly the card is still playable. Seal has a few advantages over other methods of artifact/enchantment removal: it can be deployed preemptively, which helps against Blood Moon decks and also Counterbalance; you can cast it early just to have mana open later on as opposed to casting the removal later; it grows Tarmogoyf; it gets Shown and Told (useful if they've put a Omniscience or Sneak Attack into play); it can't be hit with Flusterstorm and similar counterspells; there are other advantages I'm sure you can come up with. This is a spicy card that's definitely worth considering, even with some of the newer stuff that's been printed competing for the slot.
How do you guys side versus Grixis Delver? I've been seeing it a lot lately, and i have a tough time if my Goyf doesnt get to 5/6 and they stick an Angler... which they always seem to find one of their 2 Anglers.
I play a Tarfire and Dismember main, so getting a Goyf to 5/6 does happen sometimes or sometimes i can Dismember the Angler, but that sure hurts the life.
Here is what i am currently jamming:
http://deck.tk/1pAu2v06
I tend to bring in a Pyroblast and REB blast, 2 Rough/Tumbles, and a Flusterstorm. I cut all my Forces and a Daze on the draw or the Chain Lig on the play. Sometimes, if i want to get cute, i'll bring in Surgical and try and hit a Volc or U Sea after i Wasteland it. Which, not surprisingly, does win on the spot.
I feel like there has to be better SB cards for this deck, though. With Grixis being much more popular than any green builds, i'm not sure why i still run two Submerges and might replace one with something Grixis related. It might just be Dismember, but my prob with Dismember is that while i want see one, i never want to cast 2 against almost every deck they are used for. Just too painful.
Curfew is a possible answer to a lone Angler ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by LewisCBR
I'd cut the Chain Lightning and add a Fire/Ice. I've loved that card since forever, and tapping down Angler or nuking two small guys isn't bad.
re: Submerge -- I agree that this card is somewhat narrow in the current format. It's absolutely amazing at doing what it does, but if Forest decks aren't being played as much, perhaps it's best to put it back in the binder until a more opportune time.
Mind Harness is a classic RUG sideboard card. While we might not be capable of paying the upkeep cost for very long, often a turn or two is all we need to gain a significant advantage from it -- and in top-deck Draw/Go mode, it's often better than Submerge in that you can outright steal the opponent's threat and perhaps even finish them off with it.
I think against Grixis this card might be better, as it would enable us to steal their Pyromancers, Deathrite Shamans and any other tertiary R/G creatures they've brought in (e.g. Grim Lavamancer). Careful Grixis and BUG players will try to avoid fetching their Tropical Island/Bayou in order to avoid the threat of Submerge; Mind Harness can be cast regardless. Additionally, once in the graveyard it adds another card type to further grow our Tarmogoyfs.
You can bring Mind Harness in against many of the same decks where you'd be bringing in Submerge (e.g. Maverick, Jund, RUG, BUG variants, Elves, etc.), but it can also come in against the occasional Goblins and Burn deck you encounter.
That all said, I'm not saying that Mind Harness is necessarily the card you are looking for. Really, if you want more removal spells for decks packing smaller creatures, cards like Grim Lavamancer or Sudden Demise are quite good, as are additional copies of Forked Bolt or Rough // Tumble. While Gurmag Angler can be problematic, I think you are fairly limited with RUG's options beyond Dismember or maybe Roast.
Unrelated: speaking of unusual sideboard cards, I found a really obscure one: Scald. It's probably just a worse version of Sulfuric Vortex for this deck, but it was interesting to see this card being played as a 4-of in a recent Naya Zoo list: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/421435#online
I board something like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by LewisCBR
Otd +2 rough, 2 pyroblast, 2 flusterstorm // -4 stifle, 2 pierce.
Otp something similar except cut some forces or something.
I think the most common mistake made in this match up is the miss-asignment of roles. Grixis Delver has:
More reach/ damage via deathrite, wide pyromancer plan
We can't really race them without having a nut hand. So, the next reasonable plan is to take on the control role meaning more removal. While daze is bad otd their deck plays lower to the ground then ours.
Stifle is just too much of a blank against them and since they have more damage, mana, and effectively removal (when looking at angler lining up with our threats and strix post). We can't afford a dead card in this match up.
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Hey guys, i use to play RUG delver many moons ago and loved it a great deal. I have since moved to shardless but am having some poor luck with it. I wanted to ask, what keeps you guys on rug and not make the switch to grixis and i may be looking to make a move back to delver and not sure which i should go to
I suppose some people are jamming RUG because they don't want to/can't afford to build other decks. For me though, playing RUG is not a matter of card availability. I can build plenty of Legacy decks, including all variations of Delver and BUG, UWr Miracles, Reanimator, etc. I also have the cards to build Maverick, Jund/Junk, D&T, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whit3boy316
I think there's actually an advantage to being 'under the radar' and being perceived by other players as 'irrelevant', 'not Tier 1', 'out-dated', etc. Obviously I think their dismissals are wrong, but in any case it works to our advantage in that they are not sideboarding as heavily against RUG and/or are not expecting cards like Stifle and are more likely to be taken by surprise. Being the 'underdog' means you aren't facing as much direct resistance in terms of card selection and/or play-testing preparation from your opponents.
Decks aren't really built or played in a vacuum; I consider RUG Delver a good choice because of what is being played right now. I think RUG (at least with the right configuration) has the best matchup against UWr Miracles compared to any other Delver deck. Sure, the other versions have their own advantages, but I think the combination of Nimble Mongoose, Stifle, Bolts for reach and sideboard options makes us well-situated against the format's current 'Best Deck'. So until/unless a card(s) get banned from Miracles and knocks that deck down a notch or two, RUG will continue to be a good foil to the format's biggest problem in addition to being well-positioned against the various combo decks being played right now.
The one factor I would say that hurts RUG moreso that other Delver builds is its relatively bad matchup against D&T -- but this is true of the other Delver decks too. D&T is popular enough to modify your deck to beat, but unfortunately the standard builds running Mongoose + Tarmogoyf gets nailed hardest by Rest in Peace and also needs to draw removal in a timely fashion to deal with stuff like Mother of Runes + Serra Avenger etc. So I think stuff like Sulfur Elemental is warranted (while also being not-awful against Miracles and combo by virtue of being an Instant-speed, un-counterable threat that ignores graveyard hate).
That all said, playing some other version of Delver (BUG, Grixis, 4-C, straight UR, or even UWR) is a completely justifiable choice. They each have their own advantages and disadvantages. While Deathrite Shaman *is* a busted card, I personally don't think there is one version of Delver that is clearly far and away better than the others. I think that Grixis' popularity and perceived 'success' has more to do with the 'sheep' effect moreso than it being 'superior' to the other Delver decks -- by this I mean that if it performs well in one tournament, more players are willing to net-deck the winning list, and thus more and more players are playing it and thus more copies of Grixis Delver get registered instead of other versions of Delver, and so it is simply more statistically likely that Grixis Delver will continue the trend of being the Tier 1 Delver deck being played. It's a positive feedback loop: more Grixis players (and it *is* a good deck) = more Grixis top 8 results.
This is a great response. I appreciate it. I do truly love RUG delver, it was always so fun to play, but i do recall it being a nightmare against d&t, which i play against very consistentlyQuote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
What do you guys think about putting Ground Seal in the SB for dealing with Surgical Extraction effects as well as hosing Life from the Loam and reanimator? I also want to make room for 1-2 Tsabo's Web for dealing with Lands.
Ground Seal is okay, as a method of Grave hate that doesn't hurt us. But to be entirely honest, Surgical Extraction is probably just better -- it's 'free' (well, 2 life), and pretty much definitively deals with Loam *and* Punishing Fire (which can be problematic at times). The other problem with Ground Seal is that it doesn't prevent cards from entering the graveyard, and both decks you mentioned can use Abrupt Decay to get rid of it and entirely undo the resistance you've achieved. Ground Seal also is ignored by Exhume since it doesn't target, and it doesn't prevent Punishing Fire recursion. Seal also does comparatively little against Dredge and other various graveyard decks. If you want a SB card to deal with this sort of strategy, the best options for RUG are the following: Surgical Extraction; Grafdigger's Cage (also great against Elves and other GSZ/Natural Order decks); Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus (if landed early, it's one-sided, and can also cantrip). Extraction + Cage are nice together as they can be brought in against a range of decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dio
Tsabo's Web is alright, but don't forget about Winter Orb. Orb is especially powerful against Miracles and various midrange strategies, and practically just as good against RG Lands. I think sideboard slots are limited as it is, so you want to play the cards that hit the most type of decks and/or are the best tools for the job... so unless you *know* RG Lands is going to be around, Orb is less narrow. Furthermore, if you wanted a card to specifically win the RG Lands match up, Price of Progress is probably better and has been showing up in winning lists.
Honestly I play it because it's what I'm most comfortable with and it has the best miracles match up out of all the delver decks. All other delver decks lack a shroud threat and stifle. The other decks can support tnn, but either don't have stifle or end up tapping out for it leaving them vulnerable. Despite it being out classed in delver mirrors you still have ok match ups across the board. Now some people will argue this that it lives and dies on the stack unlike other delver decks. This is true but that's also it's greatest strength. The rug variant provides the most free wins especially if the opponent isn't familiar with it. For instance at a recent tournament it was game 3 against deathblade I'm otp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whit3boy316
T1 fetch pass, opponent does the same. T2 another fetch goose go. Opponent plays fetch pass. I play wasteland pass he plays sea. Eot I waste he brainstorms fetches, I brainstorm his fetch resolves. I never had stifle or found it off the brainstorm. I still found another waste and won the game.
For a bit of background I knew the opponent from weeklys. We had played before and knew what each other was on. The point is even if people know you're on rug while you do lose some percentages you can sometimes leverage that against your opponent. Rug delver I think more than any other deck can really get in your opponents head.
The opponent has decisions like: do I fetch now to play around stifle, but open myself up to waste? I could jam this here to play around daze, but if he has force then I've wasted time and giving him tempo.
Any deck can only afford to play around one of our counter spells at a given time. So they roll the dice on the counter spell cocktail of force, daze, pierce, snare and stifle. Usually if they guess wrong on their critical turn it's a blow out.
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One of the shops in the Denver area was having a Legacy SCG IQ yesterday (Sunday 6/26), which is a fairly rare occurrence for us. Colorado has a fantastic Magic scene, but it is usually Standard and Modern that sees the sanctioned tournament action. I was psyched, for sure, and did a bunch of testing with RUG Delver over the last few weeks to prepare. After a practice sesh online, on Friday, resulted in a 5-0 record in a competitive league, i figured i was ready to go rock this shizz! The turnout was better than i think everyone expected it would be, 51 people, so 6 rounds of swiss, and i brought the same 75 i 5-0'd with:
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/435589#online
Round 1 vs BUG Food Chain
In game 1, i had a pretty gross RUG hand and Stifled/Wastelanded his manabase into oblivion. However, all i saw were a few U Seas and a Trop. He stuck a Gurmag Angler late, but it was too little against my board and after i double bolted it away, he conceded. Game 2 was the opposite problem and he flooded out big time. I mis-boarded, though, thinking he was on Grixis Delver, due to the Angler, and not really seeing any other relevant cards, but when he tried to stick a Food Chain, i was able to Pierce it and finish the game off, no harm no foul, haha… phew.
Win 2-0
Matches 1-0-0
Round 2 vs Miracles
The first game was relatively unremarkable, he won the roll and had a turn 1 Top, but i Dazed his greedy turn 2 Counterbalance. I started out strong with a Delver that he seemed to be having a hard time finding an answer for. It eventually got Plowshared, but i kept following up with threats, one at a time, until he was dead. Game 2, he stuck a Counterbalance, but i was able to blind flip/miss and destroy it with a Pyroblast. I chipped away a few times with various creatures, who kept dying (or getting put at the bottom of my deck), but when i had enough counter backup, i windmill slammed a Sulfuric Vortex and that sealed things up as he didnt board in any Wear/Tear and i Force'd a Council's Judgement.
Win 2-0
Matches 2-0-0
Round 3 vs Grixis Delver
He won the roll, which i knew would be trouble when he turn 1’d a U Sea and Delver. I looked at my burn’less hand and felt sad for myself. The game was over fast when i had my only two lands Wasted. Game 2, i was on the play and it turns out a double Delver hand, with counter backup, and burn, is pretty good in a Delver mirror. So, two blowouts and we move to game 3. Things were getting dicey when he had a DRS, Young Peezy, and an unflipped Delver on his side of the board, but the Rough side of a Rough//Tumble turned the tides big time for me. A Goose and a Goyf crossed the finish line.
Win 2-1
Matches 3-0-0
Round 4 vs Grixis Delver
Another Delver matchup where i lost the die roll, got browned on game 1, but then gave it right back, just as hard, in game 2. We eyed each other down, trying to figure out how this game 3 would go. Thinking back, now, i feel like there were a lot of fair decks in the room, Grixis Delver probably being the most popular, but plenty of Miracles, Lands, Elves, DnT, and BG(x), i’m not sure what happened to combo, but maybe that is just my local meta. Anyways, my opponent mulls to 6, i keep this hand {Ponder, Ponder, Scalding Tarn, Wasteland, Bolt, Rough//Tumble, and Daze} which looked great. He mulls to 5, and in my head, i’m already punching my ticket to the top 8, this hand is great to 1-for-1 him on route to an easy win. He keeps the 5, plays fetchland, go (didnt even try to play around Stifle, the maniac). I play Tarn, fetch a Volcanic Island, play Ponder, and see {Wasteland, Wasteland, Tarfire}. I was hoping to find another colored source of mana, but i figured i should keep these 3 and just Ponder again next turn. He kept 5, i thought to myself, so maybe the mana-denial plan is a good route to go. I pass, on his turn 2 he plays a Wasteland, hits my Volc, passes. I’m fcked and never see another colored land. I hold him off a few turns with my own Wastelands, but he keeps having lands, and eventually a Peezy, and then, eventually, the win. That felt disgusting, as i had all the answers i would have needed to easily beat a 5 card opener. I still feel violated... get rekt, me.
Loss 1-2
Matches 3-1-0
Round 5 vs Miracles
My deck started running cold and in game 1 i kept a hand of {Bolt, Bolt, Dismember, Trop, Volc, Daze, Delver}. In theory, against a blind opponent, not a bad hand, but this turned out to be a terrible hand against Miracles. I proceeded to draw all the rest of my Dazes, lots of lands, and no Brainstorms to fix this sinking ship. Game 2, i kept a land heavy hand, but it had Sulfuric Vortex, so i gave it a whirl. I landed the Vortex while we were both around 18 life, but i never got anything after that to get me ahead in the race and he got in a hit with a late Mentor. My few creatures didnt stick and i saw no burn, so i eventually died to my own Vortex when i started to flood out. Literally a few Bolts would have won the game. This match didnt go at all the way i planned. I usually like my Miracles matchup, and board plan, but i needed far more draw manipulation, or any Brainstorms at all, to smooth it out. The 2nd game keep might have been loose, 4 lands and no Brainstorm is asking for trouble and trouble is what i got!
Loss 0-2
Matches 3-2-0
Round 6 vs Grixis Control
With only a prayer to make top 8, i settled in and had a great match. This guys deck was very much like Grixis Delver, but without Delvers, added more lands, and Jaces. Kind of like the Grixis Pyromancer list the Legacy Gauntlet had online the last few weeks. I didnt see much game 1, as i tempo’d him out, and game 2 he flooded hard. Rather forgettable match, unfortunately. We played a game 3, for fun, and i got to see what he was actually up to, and he beat me with Pyros and Deathrites, but the slip was already signed, so GG’s buddy.
Win 2-0
Matches 4-2-0
Wrap-up
My 4-2-0 record was good enough for 11th place and a few packs plus a free month of SCG Premium as consolation prizes. The top 8 consisted of 13+ point players, or 4-1-1 and better (i briefly looked at the top 8 and saw Eldrazi, Miracles, G. Delver, Lands, Death and Taxes, then 3 unknowns). All in all, I had a great time, and like i said, it is far and few between for there to be a real swiss and top 8 Legacy tournament in my area. Legacy nights are fun, at the local shops, but a no proxy competitive REL feel is the real deal. I would probably play the exact same 75 if there were another tournament tomorrow. I love RUG and i still think it has plenty of game in this meta. I feel like my entire day got hosed by a single Wasteland in round 4 game 3, but thems the breaks! Besides not shuffling that Ponder, I feel like most of the day i played tight, made full use of my disruption, then got aggressive at exactly the right moments. When the deck was humming, i felt unbeatable.
http://mythicspoiler.com/emn/cards/unsubstantiate.jpg
So, objectively speaking this card is often going to be a worse Remand, and that card doesn't even really see play in RUG (although in theory, it could be alright -- after all, Disrupt remains fringe-playable, and tempo is still relevant in this format).
However, Unsubstantiate does offer some added utility in that it can be used to bounce a creature that's already in play. Perhaps when we are looking at the 60th card and want something with versatility, this might be something worth considering as it's applicable against pretty much every strategy.
On the other hand, utility isn't enough on its own to justify a card's inclusion. Izzet Charm doesn't really see play, for example.