Congrats on the result! Could you share your list and tell some more about the match vs mentor? It does not seem like a great matchup?Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
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Congrats on the result! Could you share your list and tell some more about the match vs mentor? It does not seem like a great matchup?Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
re: the new mulligan rule
Someone in the Format Discussion thread did the math. For a 20-land deck that wants to hit its second land drop on time, and in the event of mulling down to a 6-hander with 1 land: with the help of the new Scry 1 mulligan effect, the chance of finding the second land by turn 2 raises from 35% to 58%.
Should the new mulligan rule extend to Legacy, I think this will result in possible reconfiguration of many decks' mana base configuration (basically, cutting 1-2 lands to fit in more business spells). TA can already operate somewhat comfortably on 19 lands; the 20th tends to function as added insurance. Just something to consider.
Greetings All!
I have another quick tournament report to give. I have changed gears a bit since my last post and pivoted back to the Stifle configuration. I piloted the deck to a 3-1 finish this week losing a rather odd match to a midrange Cascade deck. Here is the current list:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Dark Confidant
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Flusterstorm
2 Disfigure
1 Null Rod
1 Echoing Truth
1 Sylvan Library
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Murderous Cut
Round 1: URGB Cascade - (1-2)
This was the Bloodbraid Elf and Shardless Agent Deck. It had a black splash for both Deathrite and Abrupt Decay. He manages to stabilize in game one by hitting back to back, blind, double cascades. So BBE into Agent into value spell, with no set up. Games two and three we each got stuck on mana and the other player closed a quick game.
Round 2: Dredge - (2-0)
In game one I Force his turn one action spell and then wasteland him off of mana. Game two I have a Cage which keeps him locked down until I have a lethal force.
Round 3: UWR Stoneforge - (2-1)
So we only completed two game and both were very awkward on each side of the table. I was able to hinder his mana development but he was able to kill most of my threats. So the games went long. He was a very nice guy and conceeded when it was clear we wouldn't get though a game three.
Round 4: UWr Miracles - (2-1)
I get locked out by double Counterbalance and a SDT in game 1. I Abrupt Decayed the first CB, but alas, he had a second one. Game two he mulligans, and I get to play a Delver and then Stifle and Wasteland him on turn two. He conceeded here. Game three I managed to attack his mana a bit and apply pressure. He wasn't able to find a Terminus and died.
Overall I liked the list that I played. I ended 3-1, which was good for 4th due to everyone finishing 3-1. I think I only made one real error over the course of the night. I missed out on 2 points of lifeloss from a DRS by targeting my UWR Stoneblade opponent's card rather than my own. He was able to Dig Through Time in response. I was able to counter the DTT, but the 2 points missed here gave him an extra draw step. I feel like I may need to do a bit of testing to find the right card for both midrange and the Miracles match ups. The Miracles match up seems fine but I would really just like a way to fight them on a new axis. I think Garruk Relentless might fit the bill. It is tough for them to Counterbalance and they probably only have one or two ways to answer it. The constant stream of 2/2s or 1/1s pressures their life total or Jace. The constant creatures also tax their removal suite. I have also been thinking about trying Ashiok but it seems weaker as you are working towards milling them out and may get a touch of value from a SCM or VC. Ashiok is cool in that it makes Top a bit less reliable. I just don't think I can warrant a sideboard slot on Zur's Weirding in my local meta. If an open field is likely to contain a ton of Miracles and Omnishow, I might reconsider. As for the "new mulligan rule," we may be able to shave a land to 19 and be a bit more consistent, but we will have to wait and see if it will be implemented on all levels. Anyway those are my thoughts for now, thanks for reading and any comments are welcome and appreciated!
How is dark confidant?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
I have been really liking it. I have been considering dropping the Tasigur, the Golden Fang to go to 2 Dark Confidants. The raw card advantage is really good. I did activate Tasigur, 3-4 times over the course of the night. Bob being unaffected my graveyard hate plus the higher velocity in terms of card advantage really are making me lean that direction.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
2 bobs with 4 FOW and thoughtseizesQuote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
Thats kinda rough man. Why not 1 tasiguar, sylvan library.
His mean CMC is still less than 1.5. People really overestimate how much damage Bob is going to do and really underestimate how good card advantage is. If you look a couple of pages back I was running a list with Bob, two Digs, and Gurmag Angler on top of Forces. I've flipped Angler and Dig once each since then and won both games - one of which was against RUG (the other was Miracles, and to be fair, each flip came in the 'right' matchup). Don't get hung up on what individual cards cost. Focus on average CMC and don't forget that Bob has a body.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
I have only been playing the deck a couple of weeks after coming from Jund, but I have played to weekly events at my LGS and have been able to split top four both weeks. Bob has consistently won me games where I was able to land him on the field, and I was even able to beat a burn player that I flipped a FoW to (got pretty lucky there). I think I may drop my fourth copy of FoW in the main deck to play a third Bob.
I was wondering what you guys think about lilliana in the deck though. I have been playing 2 main deck copies and have found her to be pretty underwhelming in most of the games that I have played, most of the time when i play her I only use her to -2 then she just sits there the rest of the game. I loved her in Jund where I ran 3-4 thoughtsieze and 3-4 hymn, but she just hasn't been doing it for me.
I'm with you on both points. I started with 2 Bobs a while ago, but it didn't take long to go to 3 as he's overperformed. I've since gone down to 3 Force of Will. I'm playing 1 TNN, which has been OK, it might become the 4th FoW again though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Domri Rade
I also started out playing Hymns and Liliana, but they were underwhelming for me. T1 Delver into T2 Hymn felt...weird, attacking their life total and hand wasn't what I wanted to be doing. I'd prefer to be attacking their resources they've had to spend mana on, so I'm playing 3 Spell Pierce and 4 Stifle.
I am playing 4 FoW, 3 Hymn, 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Lillys, pretty much tapout. In the 2 creature flex slots im testing 2 Gurmag anglers right now - i played Tasigur for a long time, but he mostly "just" was goyf 5 and 6, rarely got activated, hes terrible versus DNT and now also miracles, since they play Karakas main again. As far as my testing goes, gurmag is pretty nice, since he is also decayproof and kills 80% of enemy-goyfs. I tested TNN, but i think he is just bad in this deck, since he is nothing more then a power 3 beatstick. Also thinking about switching to bobs - a friend of mine plays them (2x), and they are seriously good. Especially versus Miracles - Bob is the powerfist there. :cool:
I don't see how. I would have 4 draws that are relatively painful and 2 cards that cause some life loss (with 4 DRS, which can gain me life). The average CMC of the deck is still very low, which is what you really care about when you are playing Bob. I have said this a few times before and I will say it again, I have flipped FoWs, a Tombstalker, and once a DTT to a Dark Confidant. Never has the life loss from Bob killed me or, more importantly, put me in an unwinnable game state (for example, dead to my opponent's board). So my reasoning for 2 Bobs over a Tasigur and Library split would be the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
1. Bob is consistently easier to cast post board in the face of opposing DRS, RiP, Relics, etc than Tasigur.
2. Bob is consistent card advantage, Tasigur does not always provide card advantage.
3. Bob is on average a better rate on card advantage than Sylvan Library. 4 life per extra card is going to be more than Bob, unless you flip one of 4 FoWs.
4. Bob has a body. Yes it is smaller than Tasigur, but 2 2/1s will give you more play than a 4/5 and an enchantment. In line with this point, Bob can do things like block, as soon as you play him, Library really is kind of like Time Walking yourself so that you can get better selection and some card advantage on subsequent turns.
If you are skepitcal of my good friend, Robert, pick up a couple copies and give him a try. I am pretty sure that you will like how he works.
I completely agree. Card advantage is very meaningful and I think players often don't recognize how powerful it can be. Your life total really isn't meaningful until you are dead. More specifically those first 19 life points don't really matter. It is the last 1 that matters. This is a very simplistic argument and match up to match up this value might need to be buffered. Say in the Burn match up, you probably don't want to got to 1 life. You probably want to try to stabilize around 10 +/- 2 area. Conversely, I have killed Omnishow and Sneak and Show opponents while my life total was between 1 and 5 life. In these match ups your life total truly doesn't matter until you are dead. The core idea being that, paying life for cards is typically good so long as it does not kill you. Moreover, with a low average CMC of cards in the deck, we shouldn't be loosing much life anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
I am still quite new to the deck and legacy in general, but I have been jamming a bunch of games and played in a few proxy events at my LGS. I started out with a more black heavy build, and transitioned into an awkward hybrid deck that was a little clunky with too many double mana costs, into where I am now with a Blue heavy build.
I am wondering what you guys think about this build. It definitely felt better than the black heavy version I played in my first tournament, but it is also probably the fact that I am becoming more comfortable piloting it as well.
I felt like True-name really was a powerhouse against most decks, and powering him out on Turn 2 with a deathrite shaman was almost unbeatable to a lot of decks. I wasn't sure about Dig Through Time at first, but it felt really strong in the games I played to find sideboard 1-ofs and various answers to specific threats on board. The basic island was a card I thought could be useful because I play in a wasteland heavy meta, and having a more resilient blue source felt important to me. I'm not sure that it is necessary though, and could screw me over with Abrupt Decay and Deathrite in the deck.
I think I am still having trouble with the sideboard, 2/3 legacy events in town right now are proxy events to build interest in the format, so the meta is not super stable as people are trying out various things, but I am generally worried about Miracles, Lands, and Death & Taxes (to a lesser extent stoneblade as well) which are the decks that more experienced players run here. Does anyone have advice on some good strategies for Lands? That was the deck I seemed to have the most trouble with, especially because I am not well versed in all the things it does.
Here is the list I am running:
Creature (15)
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Tarmogoyf
3x True-Name Nemesis
Instant (22)
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
2x Dig Through Time
3x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
3x Stifle
Sorcery (4)
4x Ponder
Land (19)
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
3x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
4x Wasteland
Sideboard (15)
2x Disfigure
2x Divert
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Krosan Grip
1x Liliana of the Veil
2x Marsh Casualties
1x Murderous Cut
1x Pithing Needle
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Sylvan Library
2x Thoughtseize
Thanks for any advice you guys can share with me!
liliana and surgical has been very lackluster for me in this meta. how are you guys feeling about it.
As I posted above, Lili has been a dud most games, and as for surgical I like it because there is a lot of reanimator at my LGS.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
Hey! Welcome to Legacy :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Thedougler
You're correct to be off double black at the moment (this man's opinion). The reason is that Dig Through Time is a magic card, and Hymn'ing away a couple cantrips to gas up that card is less than ideal.. not where you want to be right now.
The thing that glares at me main deck is three True-name. There's a couple of things you can think about:
1) True-name can block Mirran Crusader, kind of a big deal. If you see a lot of matchups with that card ok, 3 is still a lot.
2) True-name i dont love against Miracles, he does pitch to force and he dodges plow... but Terminus gets him. If you're seeing the weird 'Miracle-less Counterbalance 4 Mentor in the main' list thats going around. He's actually pretty great.
3) Jace the Mind Scupltor actually gives you a lot more for just 1 more mana. You'll have the ability to switch gears into a mid-rangey type list (Liliana in the side) against appropriate decks.
4) You're not running equipment which makes True-name a bit worse.
All in all, three True-name seems excessive and if you absolutely love the card, he can be fine in smaller numbers.
Agreed, I'm on BUG/Sultai Delver and Shardless and when she's been average shes been average and when she hasn't been average she's been horrible (in both decks).Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
She's fueling up Dig Through Time for the opponent... sure if you can get ahead on board she can be ok.. but there's so many cards you need an answer for right away now. The problem is inherent in that the Dig deck's gameplan is to 1 for 1 until they can dig (or Miracles 1 for 1 until they can XXX), and if your gameplan is to 2 for 1 you're just speeding that up...
An idea would be to attack their graveyard, but that's not necessarily where I think you want to be. Affecting the board and/or putting some pressure on is how you're going to win.
Liliana has left me wanting. :(
I have seen divert pop up in a few lists, can someone help me out with what matchups people are boarding it in for?
Divert is for decks with removal, specifically decay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Domri Rade
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Thanks for the thoughts, the third true-name was a last minute switch and I cut a 4th stifle for it. I think I might have been too hyped on it after getting it out on turn 2 a couple times and just winning off of it, which is why I originally added the third. I do see a lot of D&T matchups where he seems very strong, but maybe I will try with the 4th stifle again instead and go with that for now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lifeloss
In my sideboard I originally had 1 Jace, and I think I might put him back in there in place of grafdiggers cage, as I haven't seen anyone run a deck that I would need it against in my local meta. I think the only decks I need graveyard interaction for is a couple people playing lands, where I think surgical extraction is good for hitting their life from the loam.
One thought that I keep coming back to (even thought I've kind of set my work on building this deck aside for now as others are in much closer reach) is whether Ashiok might be a replacement for at least one Liliana in the decks that can't hit double black as easily. The main thing you lose with the switch is Lili's -2, but unless you're trying to kill something indestructible or Emrakul, is that such a big thing to lose right now? Has anyone tested this recently (other than probably Fabiano)?
That thing is horrible.Quote:
Originally Posted by eostby
No immediate effect.
Greetings All!
Just here to report on another week's worth of Legacy. I went 3-1 this week beating Dredge (2-0), Grixis Delver (2-0), and Burning Reanimator (2-0), while losing to MUD (1-2). From last week's list I made the following changes: -1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang and -1 Daze for +1 True-Name Nemesis and +1 Spell Pierce. In the sideboard I also made the following change -1 Golgari Charm for +1 Garruk Relentless. I made these changes as it had felt like I had been playing against a lot of UWr Miracles and UWR Midrange decks. TNN and Pierce are moderate upgrades in these match ups. If you can resolve Garruk and protect him, he runs away with the game. Against UWR Midrange decks you do have to watch out for Lightning Bolts.
Round 1: Dredge - (2-0)
In both games one and two, I FoW his discard outlets to buy time to get and double DRS active with Goyf blockers. Both games were very tight. I was able to keep him off of dredging in game 2. The deck is seriously powerful and fairly resilient to DRS. I have been very happy with my three pieces of graveyard hate since we tend to have 1-2 Dredge players.
Round 2: MUD - (1-2)
Games one saw a turn three Karn. Game two a trio of Goyfs get him. Game three a turn 3 Wurmcoil ruins my day.
Round 3: Grixis Delver - (2-0)
This build didn't appear to be running DRS and the mana base appeared very shaky. A few well placed Stifles and Wastelands made for two games of near solitaire.
Round 4: Burning Reanimator - (2-0)
I wasn't completely sure what was going on in this match up. However, I had counter magic and DRS in game one. Game two I just had the full permission hand, which denied him access to combo though any route. Game two, I did get a free Vendilion Clique due to a Stronghold Gambit, which is the first time I have ever seen that card played. It was pretty funny. He cast the spell, I read it, Brainstormed, found Clique, allowed the spell to resolve and got the Clique for free as he was trying to sneak in a Griselbrand.
Overall I am still very happy with the deck. I think that with a bit of tuning and tight play it can beat basically everything in a given meta. I am a little sad that I did not get to test out the Garruk that I slated into the board this week. Oh well, maybe next time. Anyway, my 3-1 record was good for 3rd place this week. Anybody have and good plans for the MUD match up? I am thinking that maybe the Trygon Predator might need to come back to the board if this guy keeps showing up. All three games felt very one-sided. I am just wondering if anyone out there has some more experience with the match up. Thanks for reading!
Weird thing with Stronghold Gambit. I've never seen it played either. As for MUD, I think that it's probably the most polarized matchup as far as the discard and Stifle builds of BUG go. With discard it's not hard to make their hands semi- to non -functional because they can't afford ro mulligan marginal but keepable hands. Liliana is also a huge beating against everything but Wurmcoil Engine. The Stifle build just doesn't have a ton of tools to fight back against expensive permanents, no fetchlands, and bigger creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
EDIT: I obviously support Trygon Predator. But you knew that already.
Alternatively, you can do as the Euros do and go to BUrG for Ancient Grudge out of the board.
Stronghold Gambit is one of my favorite cards, and I'm usually thrilled whenever I see it brought up, but this is an embarrassing usage. It has no business being in the 60 when its opposition is running something close to sixteen "weenies".Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
I play against 2 different Mud builds often, 1 of them daily. However, I don't play the Tapout version, I play a Stifle build without Liliana. I have also been playing a Reality Shift and an Echoing Truth in the main in place of Disfigures to much success. These both help the mud matchup and have been all around good in the current meta. Ugin must be countered, you will not win if he sticks.
I have found it a fairly even matchup, but its only even if you know how to play against it, know what build they play, and have either FoW or AD in your opening hand for the chalice or 3spere, especially if you lose the roll. There's a lot to take into account for this matchup, it has taken quite a bit of practice for me to become as proficient at beating it as I have. Playtest against it if you can, it's fairly necessary.
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
I completely agree. It probably would have been solid to bring/keep in against ANT, TES, Omnishow, and maybe Miracles. To play it against a Delver deck seems pretty loose to me. It was a very interesting deck. We talked about the build a good bit afterwards. I had read an article about it sometime way back, but never actually played against it. Having the chance to do so was pretty interesting. I wouldn't worry about it as a meta game contender. If you have counter magic and a piece or two of graveyard hate, you should be in fine shape.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
Stifles can be a real blowout if they try to activate a Kuldotha Forgemaster but I think that is really the only juicy target. Burning a Stifle to buy a turn when facing down a Karn Liberated or a Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is fine but probably doesn't leave you in a very good position unless you have a large force. Maelstrom Pulse might be fine here as well. I think that I like Trygon Predator the best, as it has some added functionality in a variety of match ups. Going to BUrG just for Ancient Grudge is a transition that I don't think is necessary. I think the match up is winnable without this change. I think it will just take a bit of tuning and maybe playing a few more matches against it. Admittedly, I don't have the most experience in this match up.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
I did my best to keep FoW and AD hands. I think part of my lack of success came down to him having good draws. I got to Thoughtseize him in two of the games and his hands were just outlandish. The idea of mainboarding Echoing Truth and Reality Shift is very interesting. I think both cards have their applications but in the maindeck they feel a bit weird to me. Thanks for the ideas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
I really want to one day Stifle a trigger from a Chalice on 2 to resolve a Tarmogoyf. I would probably run around the room with my hands up yelling like a madman.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
It would be pretty awesome! I would love to do it too!Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmutant
Who is dumb enough to Chalice on 2 without a chalice on 1 against TA?
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
I imagine a Decay would be involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
No DTTs in the winning list at SCG Open Baltimore. Also none in the fourth place foiur colour list or the sixteenth place Thresh.
I never play tempo deck's, but I'm curious if maybe DTT isn't such a great card after all for Delver? I recall when TNN was new, and to a lesser extent TC, people were running those cards a little over zealously until the hype died down. Do any Derlver players think that's what we're seeing here, or is this just a fluke?
There are a lot of variables that go into whether you want to run Dig, and the things that make Dig good are the same things that make Young Pyromancer good - lots of cheap unconditional spells. I'd say that there are really two kinds of Delver decks now: there's the "traditional" builds like BUG and RUG that stick a threat and keep the opponent off balance while that threat wins the game, and then there's the aggro-Dig versions that want to play something closer to a counter-burn strategy that uses Dig to reload - these are the "fixed" versions of UR Delver from the Treasure Cruise era. This is a good example. That deck can play the traditional tempo game with Daze and Force, but its plan A is clearly just being aggressive while not being completely cold to removal and combo since it's only running ten pieces of disruption compared to the stock 12-16 + Wastelands present in RUG and BUG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Greetings All!
Another week, Legacy local event. I went 3-1 again this week beating Mono-Red Stompy/Blood Moon (2-0), Elves (2-1), and earning an awkward round four bye (with a 2-1 record) due to players dropping, while losing to ANT (1-2). From last week's list I made the following changes: -1 Pithing Needle and -1 Flusterstorm for +1 Engineered Plague and +1 Trygon Predator in the sideboard. My thoughts being that I wanted a repeatable means by which to combat the artifacts out of MUD and I wanted a more permanent means to fight the Elves deck that I knew were in the room.
Round 1: Mono-Red Stompy/Blood Moon - (2-0)
Both games one and two he resolves Chalice of the Void on 1. In game two he has one on two as well. Fortunately for me in game one I have Delver into Goyf which kill him despite a resolved Blood Moon. In game two I have a couple dead Delvers and a few FoWs to keep pressure off of me while the True-Name Nemesis gets him dead.
Round 2: Elves - (2-1)
I keep a loose hand game one and get punished as he combos off and kills me on turn three. Games two and three I have tons of removal and basically kill every elf he plays. Game two I even got to resolve the Engineered Plague. I think if this match up contiunes to show up at locals, I may change my sideboard Nihil Spellbomb to a second Grafdigger's Cage.
Round 3: ANT - (1-2)
I mulligan both of my seven card hands in games one and two. I mulligan my six card hand in game two. Gitaxian Probe and Cabal Therapy really put a hurt on me in game one. He is able to kill me game one before my Insect finishes him. Game two I keep Trop, Delver, Daze, Spell Pierce, and Brainstorm. This hand seems pretty good but would have probably still lost if not for a good read on my part. My opponent took a really long time to Brainstorm and then didn't crack a fetch land. I used this info to inform my placement of a Surgical Extraction. The removal of the Dark Rituals didn't matter, but the shuffling his Past in Flames he had left on top of his deck did. Game three, I keep a seven card hand with not pressure, but lots of interaction. I take too long to apply pressure and he kills me.
Round 4: BYE - (2-0; I guess)
This one was really tough...
I maintain that with a bit of tuning and tight play this deck can beat basically everything in a given meta. I am am still a bit sad that in two weeks I have not gotten to test out Garruk. I did bring it in against the Mono-Red deck as a diversified CMC threat, but didn't find it or need to cast it. Again, maybe next time. Anyway, my 3-1 record was good for 4th place this week, some awkward stuff happened and there were 4, 9-pointers. I think the ANT match up is fine. I probably just got a bit unlucky with all of the mulligans. Maybe I can tweak the sideboard to get a Flusterstorm or two back in there. I have also been thinking about Arcane Laboratory. It is pretty great against Elves, Storm, and Omnishow; while making our counters more potent in basically every match up. So I may give it some consideration as well. Thanks for reading!
I've read this thread on and off for awhile now but this is my first time posting. I am a legacy player from Chicago and I placed 33rd at the SCG Legacy Premiere IQ (Attendance 171) yesterday playing Andrew Rayner's list from GP Lille: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1243198
My fetchlands were mixed slightly differently (but I still played 10) and I switched the nature's claim in the board for a Krosan Grip (I felt that having artifact and enchantment removal that failed to hit chalice on 1 or sensei's top could lead to more feel bad situations than I like).
While my result was not terribly good (they cash top 32 and post top 32 decklists, go figure), I believe I was the highest finishing BUG Delver player (yay?).
I beat mono-red Sneak Attack, Red and Taxes (not a typo), RUG Delver, MUD, and UR Delver.
I picked up an early loss to Harlan Firer on RUG Delver, then I lost my x-1 match to Storm which is very favorable and was promptly matched with Maverick, which is not.
If I was able to beat storm I would have been x-1 and I probably could have avoided the Maverick match which put me out of contention at x-3 and could have resulted in a higher BUG Delver finish (represent).
TL;DR Deck still felt great and ran pretty well, save for the occasional missing land drops against rug delver and maverick which occur when you have 20 lands in your deck and can't cantrip. Sorry I punted storm and didn't finish higher for TEAM AMERICA. Win your favorable matchups or get punished.
Thanks for all your hard work on the deck!
Hi Sourcers. I was fortunate enough to win the SCG IQ at Curio Cavern last weekend. They ran a fantastic event.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tasigur
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
9 Fetches
4 Wasteland
Side:
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Envelop
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Dismember
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Krosan Grip
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's Cage
R1: Dredge, loss 1-2 (lol)
R2: Elves, win 2-0
R3: ANT, win 2-1
R4: Elves, win 2-1
R5: ID
Quarters: Mono-Red Sneak Attack Stompy, win 2-1
Semis: Since the top four split and both players in the other semis match had invitations they dropped so we got a bye to finals, yay!
Finals: ANT, win 2-1
Deck felt great. Hymn to Tourach was the MVP. The main deck Toxic Deluge was tremendous against Elves. Tasigur also performed real well as the fifth Tarmogoyf and for card advantage in the grindy matchups.
Prior to this tournament I was testing Dig Through Time. I was dissatisfied with it in this style of Team America. I found that most if not all turns I want to tap out to generate tempo; Dig is clearly the best when cast at instant speed. I also found it was getting stranded in my hand a lot. Dig seems to fit better in a reactive deck where you run lots of cheap spells to fill the grave (e.g., Gitaxian Probe, Spell Pierce, Bolt). I can see it being viable in the Stifle version.
Cheers.
Hey all. I have the stuff to build this and the shardless version but I'm torn on which I should play. We only get one legacy tourny a month here so I can't get consistent practice. My meta is pretty all over the place now. 2-4 miricles, 2-3 omni, American delver, 4 color delver, 2-3 dnt 3-4 merfolk, esper deathblade bug delver, shardless, 2 jund and others I can't remember off the top.
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I kind of dig the list that recently finished 2nd in the SCG Open this past weekend. For reference: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=87958
My thoughts on the list:
It takes the basic overall configuration of BUG Delver, but drops the Delvers themselves and plays more midrange cards in Baleful Strix and the full play set of Dig Through Time. A miser's Toxic Deluge is your Hail Mary against creature swarms and/or something out of Decay range. Even against a field playing lots of DTT, Hymn is still a powerful card that can randomly win games.
Daze of course is still amazing, even in a 'Control' deck as illustrated here and in GP Lille's winning Miracle list. Daze enables these decks to make it into the mid/late game where their superior card advantage takes over. (I should also mention how Daze can 'combo' with Brainstorm when you don't need so many lands onboard and can shuffle a Sea away for a new grip.)
Delver is at its weakest in BUG in comparison to RUG, UR, and BUR/(g) configurations. I think without Lightning Bolt, Delver is actually a weak card since you are generally pulled into the later game without the added reach of Burn. Black offers enough disruptive power to deal with combo even without an extremely efficient early clock. So I can completely understand the justification for dropping the card entirely. Strix maintains the Blue count for FoW and is just a powerful control card in general.
I would personally be tempted to cut one copy of DTT for a Jace, Sylvan Library or other threat, but I suppose given how busted DTT is and how you want to *always* have consistent access to the card that it makes sense to just play 4 copies. Perhaps it's simply the best overall Game 1 method of card advantage. I also think this deck might benefit from somehow finding room for a MD Tasigur, but that's just me preferring to have plenty of threats.
Trinisphere is an interesting sideboard approach to handling the metagame. It slows down the velocity of other tempo decks (which may even have trouble reaching 3 lands against BUG), stops Omniscience from winning on the spot, and also hampers plenty of other combo strategies such as Storm.
Overall, excellent job with the list and good piloting by Devin Koepke. I think this may be the direction that Team America wants to take, at least until the next ban/restriction announcement. I often questioned the inclusion of Delver in BUG.
Delver is probably your best card to get you there against elves.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
Sure, but Elves has always been a bit of a rough matchup, Delver or no. I think this deck configuration would try to win by landing a Goyf, then blow them out with a timely Toxic Deluge and swinging in, killing anything 1 by 1 with targeted removal. Maybe bring in Jace to keep up with card advantage or win via Fateseal lock. Perhaps it may even consider bringing in Trinisphere from the SB to slow them down (I'm unsure of this approach, admittedly having never played Trinisphere in Legacy before).Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
Delver as a flying clock is nice, sure, but it doesn't really address the primary concern of the matchup: Natural Order into Craterhoof alpha strike, and/or winning via card advantage via Glimpse and/or Visionary/Symbiote loops. Elves also tends to run Abrupt Decay and can stop your Delver from going all the way, hence the need for a definitive answer (i.e. Toxic Deluge). Either way, BUG still needs a fair amount of luck to come out on top in this matchup.
edit: also, Elves is just one deck in a huge format. I've already explained the rationale for dropping Delver in BUG, but this is especially true because of every other deck that's adapted their 75 to deal with Delver (i.e. pretty much every tier 1 and 2 deck).
Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
I posted something similar in the Team America (Midrange/Control) thread and discussed this with Sturtzilla earlier today. I actually tried Dig in something like Phimus Pan's BUG Control list when Khans was first spoiled and while it was really good, the Dig Through Time decks were just too fast and too efficient to keep up. Recent testing has suggested that Liliana is still great against lots of random decks - including Grixis if you have other ways to contain Pyromancer - but not as good with Dig as she is with Visions. I'm embarrassed to say that despite testing something very similar and going down to a 1/2 Jace/Liliana split, I never cut them entirely or moved off of spot discard in favor of Hymn. I think (as I said in the other thread) that Koepke's list is likely a little too redundant for a list with 8 cantrips and 4 Digs - 4 Daze is probably a little much and a land can likely be shaved somewhere, just on inspection.
As for why people run Delver in BUG, you still get a lot of free wins off of Delver + Daze and don't lose that much in terms of going long.