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I hope neither.Quote:
Originally Posted by caprino
I think I'm a little too cynical to nab a set of SDT's in the hope that they unban it and ban CB; I just don't see it happening. I would love it, but I don't see it happening. I don't think they'll ban DRS either, and we all know they won't ban Brainstorm. Survival seems a bit of a stretch as well.
I hope no changes, other than maybe Earthcraft/Mind Twist/Frantic Search unban.
I don't think DRS will get banned next patch, still, the amount of hate DRS is getting is super high.
And while top got even more hate in the years, it also had a good share of the playerbase defending it, I see very few people defending DRS now, maybe because DRS is not deck defining, its just a new 4x that has to be played in the goodstuff shell
The reason to enjoy Legacy, in my opinion, is the absurdly large card pool. And I don't mean getting to play a large variety of decks, but rather, the unknown number of one-step-from-busted cards that just need one innocuous card printed to produce a synergy worthy of a new deck. The fact that Lion's Eye Diamond (1996) had to wait until Infernal Tutor (2006) to become an all-star card. Food Chain (1999) had to wait until Misthollow Griffin (2012) before it had an infinite combo, and then wait until Walking Ballista (2017) before it could win without combat. How many years was Show and Tell a dollar rare before it became valuable? Didgerioo's day is coming, and who knows what other laughably bad cards will turn out to be hot next year?
And this isn't just limited to Legacy, though the window of power is usually too high for recent cards to be included, but I consider Lodestone Golem (2010) and Hangerback Walker (2015) to be rather recent cards to what should be a 25 year old format. Modern too has it's examples of curious synergies impossible to predict coming together to produce a neat deck. Lantern of Insight is a great example. Even in standard the nonsense around Saheeli Rai and Felidar Guardian shows that their microscopic card pool isn't immune from unintended synergy.
Legacy sits in that perfect spot, where some pushed Wizard from Dominaria could have made Wizard Tribal a thing. Who knows what the next set could reveal?
The next set could reveal that whatever comes out, the best thing to do with whatever card comes out is play it next to Brainstorm, Ponder, and Force of Will
Well I mean, sure, okay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Except the format frequently gets new archetypes, or at the very least, scarcely played decks that are still good become more popular because some pro does well with it. Then over time, people coalesce around what they perceive to be as the best decks, and the lesser played decks go back to the fringes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Examples include Turbo Depths, Br Reanimator, Noble Hierarch BUG (which increased the popularity of Bant Deathblade for a time), and Czech Pile. All of these are relatively new archetypes within the last couple of years. If we go back even further, there are even more examples.
The point is, new archetypes pop up all the time. I would hardly consider Legacy "solved." Some decks fall off the map, like Shardless BUG, and new ones pop up too. This happens all the time, and not all of them are blue (like Turbo Depths and Br Reanimator).
I agree that it makes sense to splash blue for Brainstorm and Ponder in most decks, because increased consistency of drawing what you need when you need it is a winning strategy, especially at large events. But that doesn't mean you can't brew new competitive decks in Legacy, or that all new competitive brews require blue.
EDIT: Big Eldrazi is another one that comes to mind. Relatively new (within the last year), most certainly competitive, and isn't blue.
EDIT2: Looking through N&D revealed Steel Stompy as well. Also, although this is a bit of a shameless plug, but I did well last October with my Esper Mentor brew, and I did well last year at GP Louisville with my Sligh brew. I realize both of them run blue, but I like casting Brainstorm so whatever.
Your mentor deck (which I really liked btw) was basically just proof of how busted DRS and Cantrips can be together. I think it was 18 lands trying to cast mentor and Jace. It was incredibly greedy. And Steel and Eldrazi decks are just traditional stompy shells that basically gained better threats. They aren't exactly new archetypesQuote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
Big Eldrazi isn't a Stompy deck. It's the evolution of 12-Post MUD decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Most new archetypes are evolutions of older ideas with new cards. There are only so many unique strategical concepts that can occur in Magic: the Gathering, regardless of whatever new cards Wizards decides to print.
Unless we get something as monumental as dredge, I don't see how we'll come across a new archetype if we're saying evolution of Stompy or whatever don't count.
D.n.T
If you take Deathblade 2013 and remove its 4 SFM, 1 Batterskull, 1 Jitte and 4 Plows for 4 Pyromancer, 2 Angler and 4 Lightning Bolts you pretty much end up with the default Grixis 2018.
If you take the old Shardless decks which ran Agent+Visions+Goyf and replace these with Leovold+Command+Snapcaster, you end up with 4c Control 2018.
These are no new archetypes, not even real evolutions, as mainly the creatures were swapped as a natural result of powercreep, while the rest of the deck is essentially the same for years
I agree with much of what's been said lately by users much more adept than I at Magic, but let's not forget that 4x Brainstorm or 4x Chalice don't make a deck, either. Not pointing fingers, but I feel like that's where this discussion often goes.
And if people complain that Chalice decks aren't consistent enough, why don't they run more Serum Powders?
I'm not sure where this comes from at all. Eldrazi Stompy has been DTB for 5 or 6 months straight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
It would run more consistently, but also worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
Consistency is not the be all and end all. What matters is your odds/frequency of winning matches (varies from MU to MU). A consistent deck doesn't win more often - it just loses for different reasons.
Woha. I disagree with pretty much everything you said.
This is flat out false. Eldrazi stompy thread's has not been a constant presence in the DTB section over the last 6 months. It has gone in and out, like many other decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Not only that. The DTB section of this forum is not -with full respect to the staff- an objective representation of what the legacy metagame looks like. It's just an opinion based on statistics.
If you use a different webstite to get your stats, then your opinion changes.
Theory and practice are the same thing in theory, but not in practice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
1. Your statement would be true if we were to play with random-nonsensical-weird cards. I think what invalidates your opinion is the fact that legacy decks play some of the best cards ever printed, and they want to see those cards. Try to pay attention to the fact that even non-blue decks are designed to maximize the odds of seeing a certain card, like, squared-out lists or searching toolboxes.
2. Legacy metagame has always been dominated by the most consistant decks. Eldrazi Stompy was tier1 for just about as much time as it was needed to realize there was a viable blue answer. The fact that I can come up with t2 Strix twice as likely as you being able to t2 TKS does matter.
Hi all,
I'm no legacy expert, but I try to play when I can, and have most of the decks built, so I have a passing familiarity with just about everything. I think this B&R update will pass without incident, to be honest, or they might ban deathrite. If they decide to ban, it may be better for the format as a whole now, but it sets a bad precedent for the future. I do not want legacy to be the format where wotc just bans the best card each year. I think most long time legacy aficionados probably agree with that; the neglect is the format's biggest strength. If this were modern, we'd have lost brainstorm from the jump.
My idea would sound mostly crazy, but maybe crazy enough to work. There was a previous post, and I apologize for not giving proper credit, that separated banned cards into always broken, and can be broken but require some sort of synergy and cost. I would propose that instead of banning deathrite, they just unban the contextually powerful cards. Before top was banned, miracles kept deathrite shaman in check. Before that dig, treasure cruise, and survival were banned. Each led to oppressive metagames (especially cruise), but maybe if they were all available (except cruise) they'd balance each other out.
Here's what I'd propose:
Ban:
Nothing
Unban:
Sensei's Divining Top: It's painful, but it's a cool interaction with counterbalance that has been around for ages without breaking anything. It also enables some lower tier decks that otherwise wouldn't exist. It could also help keep deathrite in check. I think the biggest impediment is it would require wotc to eat a little crow, and rework their legacy b&r philosophy.
Survival of the Fittest: It's a great engine, but it costs a ton of mana, and doesn't immediately win the game. There is way more pressure on the graveyard than there was during the banning. It could be broken still, but it's worth a shot.
Mind Twist: Great card, probably won't even see play. Chaining rituals can do more powerful things.
Frantic Search: This unban still won't make high tide as good as storm or s&t.
Goblin Recruiter: Kind of annoying the play against, but not overpowered. I think if we can have top, we can have this.
Earthcraft: Another combo piece that would probably be weaker than available pieces.
Maybe Unban:
Dig through Time: This will give combo a shot in the arm, but with everyone else getting richer, it may even be necessary.
Mana Drain: Will either hardly get played, or spawn a new play pattern. I doubt it would break everything. It can even be reprinted.
Mystical Tutor: We'll just have to go back to the gentleman's agreement... Helps other combo decks (mostly reanimator), they could probably use a slight assist.
Yawgmoth's Bargain: Griselwho? Seriously, it might give storm too much of a boost.
Longshot Unbans:
Balance: This is the most controversial pick. I would say it skirts the edge of good on its own. It's super versatile, but it works best in a deck with fairly high constraints. I think it would spawn a new type of white/x chalice/stax deck. The more I think about it, the more brutal it seems. It could lead to a lot of light's out turn ones, but to do it consistently it would need to be built kind of like belcher, which literally kills on turn one and is not a powerhouse.
Gush: Has minor deck building considerations. This will probably soup up tempo and deathrite decks too much.
Tinker: Is this better than show and tell? It has less deck building requirements, but the payoffs are not as good. I have a hunch that wotc is getting more cautious with its 'pay a bunch of mana and win' type of cards, so there should be a give and take between this and show and tell. It will definitely spawn an archetype for brewers.
The chances of this happening is not likely, and it just might completely break the format. A positive is that even if a deck proves too oppressive, it will probably take a long time to 'solve' the metagame.
Imagine this landscape:
Tempo/Delver decks
4c Control
Miracles
Lands
Depths combo
Reanimator
Survival based tempo and combo
Show and Tell based combo
Storm
Death and Taxes
Eldrazi
12 post
Prison/Stax
Painter
Merfolk
Earthcraft/enchantress
Goblins??
High Tide??
Mana drain based control??
Tinker combo??
It's totally a theory, but having a few new viable, maybe even powerful, archetypes sounds good. I'm sure there are plenty that I didn't even think about, and yet more that are unknown unknowns. The known archetypes get a little richer, and compete better relative to deathrite decks. We all have our biases and boogiemen, but I think there could be a good shot that all the insanity may just balance out. What do you think would happen in this environment? Too crazy to work, or so crazy it might just work?
Edit: added more decks
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Backseat_Critic
Do you want to actually do a little research next time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cave
Eldrazi made DTB in October, and has been there ever since. That's 5 straight months (I said 5 or 6).
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...election/page6
Did I say otherwise?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cave
I was disputing the statement that Stompy "rarely puts up numbers". DTB is not the be all and end all, but you don't sit there for 5 straight months without "putting up numbers". That's a fact.
Given the degree of thought and knowledge you've put into your post, I will not be giving a free lesson in math this morning. Maybe another time. TBH, I can't shake the feeling that you are trolling me with your " alternative" facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cave
But as far as I know, the most consistent deck in Legacy (Burn) has never dominated the format.
Oh, I don't mind people expressing an opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by kombatkiwi
If you say things like:That's fine. You are object stating your opinion; as an opinion.
- I want to see a diverse range of play-styles
- I want better colour balance
- I want a minimal banned list
- I want more viable cores in multi-colour fair decks
But saying things like:
Is utterly useless.
- This card does not create interesting board states
- This card makes Legacy worse
You suggest reverting the format back to Miracles vs Deathrite+Decay once again which has shown for 4 years that it's toxic? Miracles has put 2 people into a GP Top8 recently afaik, so how do you justify that it needs a boost?Quote:
Originally Posted by Backseat_Critic
What exactly do you mean by "true combo decks"? What makes deck like Scapeshift or Storm in Modern not "true" combo decks?Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Modern doesn't really have a Tier 1 prison deck, true. Some have argued that Lantern Control is actually a much better deck than its Tier 2 status would indicate (after all, "tiers" aren't really measures of strength, but of results, which is a combination of strength and popularity), though. Still, counting it as Tier 2, stop and consider what the Tier 1 prison deck in Legacy is: Death & Taxes. I won't argue it's not technically a prison deck, but it's hardly what comes to mind when someone says "prison deck." In terms of more classic ideas of a prison deck, I feel like Lantern Control is higher tier than any "classic" prison deck in Legacy. Also, while 8Rack is fairly fringe, Ponza's actually become pretty good lately thanks to Bloodbraid Elf.Quote:
Also, does Modern have a tier-1 prison deck? I understand Lantern Control is a tier-2 deck, and Rack and Ponza are worse.
And if we want to pull the "where is the Tier 1 <insert archetype here>?" question, then where is the Tier 1 aggro deck in Legacy?
"Weird" is far too vague of a term for me to respond properly. But if we're just talking combo, then yeah, there's Scapeshift, Storm, Krark-Clan Ironworks. If we want to talk about something that's not really combo but is just weird in a more general sense, there's Lantern Control and Hollow One.Quote:
For me, format diversity can't really exist without decks that approach the game from a completely different angle. In Legacy, ANT, Lands, and RB Reanimator are perfect examples. Does Modern have decks that are that "weird"? Honestly curious.
To be honest, top would definitely give miracles a boost, but I don't think the gap is even as big as everyone thought when it was banned. Even before the top ban, miracles was moving toward a more cantrip heavy build. If other decks get new toys too, I think it may even or some. Also, terminus survival/vengevine will pretty ll prey on terminus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Like I said, I don't know if this would be good for the format. Just a theorycraft for discussion.
I'll admit I never saw Gush in action in a competitive format, so I have no comment there, but those other two longshots are never coming off the list. I do remember Gush enabled the 'other Forces' though, but 12-16 available free counterspells sounds like too much to me. (The 'other Forces' being Foil and Thwart, not to mention Daze)Quote:
Originally Posted by Backseat_Critic
Neither are any of the maybes ever coming off. I knew they'd ban Mystical when I was playing AnT, I Mystical'd for AdN and cast it in my draw step, opponent Mystical'd for Force and brainstormed into it. If Bargain ever comes off the list... well... I got a few ideas that'd get it banned right away again. Dig and Drain are way too much.
I'm glad the stupidness that was CounterTop is no more, good riddance. I would've also been glad to see Terminus go instead.
The rest... might be ok.
Banning DRS with all the answers printed available for it seems harsh... but what I'm hoping for a B&R update is this:
Legacy: True-Name Nemesis is banned. The lack of interactivity it creates in games is not in line with what we want to see in competitive formats, combined with the lack of solid answers to a resolved mini-Progenitus in nonblack decks. We realize it only has one toughness, and isn't completely destroying the format by itself, but it was created with a multiplayer format in mind, with the intent on forcing political decisions and player interaction on a social level. It has accomplished the opposite of this in duel formats, almost forcing players to twist and contort their decks to deal with it, at the cost of ruining the entire experience.
What I'm expecting for a B&R update:
Legacy: No changes.
I personally would be really happy to see a Legacy B/R update like:
BAN:
True-Name Nemesis
Delver of Secrets
Terminus
UNBAN:
Sensei's Divining Top
Earthcraft
Mind Twist
Goblin Recruiter
Frantic Search
Possible future unbans in this hypothetical:
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Survival of the Fittest
This is quite similar to Backseat_Critic's list, but I'd like to at least try to explain why I think this is a good idea (not that it will ever happen, but I digress).
tl;dr: I feel the above 3 cards to be hypothetically banned are too mana efficient in many ways, and I feel the format wouldn't be worse off without them. Of the 5 cards to be unbanned, 4 have been on the list for quite some time, and I feel the format is simply more efficient than when they were banned, and they wouldn't cause problems. 1 is an exchange for terminus that I feel is simply a much more interesting card and has many more applications in decks. Possible unbans are cards I feel might be a bit too much due to how much the 3 bans would likely shift the format.
TNN/Delver bans:
I really dislike the absolute raw efficiency of these cards...and the fact that simply some of the best aggressive creatures ever printed are now blue and not red/green is somewhat astonishing.
On True Name Nemesis:
The lack of proper interaction* with TNN is extremely disappointing, and really just feels like the best thing to be doing at 3 mana turn 2 since there's not terribly much your opponent you can do about it. I do, in some ways, like the pressure it puts on an opponent to do something about it (this kind of pressure makes for very interesting games in my opinion), but most typical removal does nothing to it, so it feels very lopsided to me. I feel like the fact that Sword of Fire and Ice has seen an uptick in play partially because of this card is notable (However, it's likely that's not the only reason it's played).
Delver:
I simply think it's just too efficient at what it does. It's possibly the best aggressive creature ever printed. Indeed, the condition to flip imposes quite some deckbuilding constrants at the first look, but I feel it's interesting to compare decks like Grixis delver to, say, Burn:
GP Trial - April 7, 2018
There is a burn list and a grixis delver list. Burn has less creatures (-1) and more instants and sorceries (+2) than the delver list...This might not mean much, but I think it's an interesting comparison, considering both are decks that could easily be considered quite aggressive. Maybe the 'constraint' to flip delver really isn't much of a deckbuilding consideration at all? Nay, maybe the best kind of decks already lend themselves to such a list that will already be able to flip delver without much issue?
I feel like that getting rid of these cards would pull some of the aggressive power away from blue, and hopefully cut some of the mana efficiency of the format away
Terminus:
Simply put, a sweeper at :w: that doesn't even put creatures into the yard feels far too strong. Of course, it must be drawn to be cast for that cost, but there is so much deck manipulation that it never seemed to be much of an issue. I'm going to simply use the 'Too mana efficient' argument here, as I don't think under any conditions should a control deck be able to sweep the board for :w:.
*: Really, the only things that get rid of TNN are boardwipes (Terminus or Wrath of God types, of which WoG is not really played) or global -x/-x effects...or really strange stuff like Drop of Honey/Porphyry Nodes/Council's Judgement. First of all, my problem with Sweeper and -x/-xs are that they are complete parity...If you were ahead on board, the opponent can simply drop a TNN and suddenly block your best creature for free until they can find an answer. The only way to get rid of it, then, is possibly to harm your own board.
With the last category, these cards are extremely rare...Not in literal scarcity, but simply cards that choose permanents and remove them are simply not printed often, and when they are it's rare that they're even played. Hell, Drop is really only played BECAUSE of TNN (to some extent leovold as well, but not nearly as much). CJ is the only other card that really sees play in this category that removes it, but it's mana parity at that point, which really isn't where you want to be with an otherwise vanilla 3/1.
Hopefully this explains my positions on these thoroughly. I'm sure it will be easy for many to poke holes in them if anyone bothers reading this, but what it comes down to is:
I simply think the format is too mana efficient. I feel the format would be better, in my opinion, if we could tune it back a notch on this axis. There are already a great many of viable decks and archetypes, but there is always room for improvement, right? :wink:
Unbanned stuff:
I honestly don't have as much to say on these as the above, but here goes:
Sensei's Divining Top:
Not nearly as bad without Terminus. Counterbalance was a thing in legacy for quite some time before it. I know wizards generally likes to ban enablers (and they had an easy 'causes matches to go to time' excuse handy), but I really liked how this card glued a lot of silly decks together.
Earthcraft:
Been on the banlist since the format's inception if I'm not mistaken. For all intents and purposes, I think [card]Cryptolith Rite[/card] is simply a better version of it that doesn't make infinite squirrels...
Mind Twist
Antiquated at this point, very likely that unbanning this would do much. I think the format can handle this one.
Goblin Recruiter
Again, I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong) that this was banned due to time constraints? If not, I apologize, but I don't think I put the crux of my argument on this fact, anyhow.
I simply think it's not even necessary to 'stack your deck' with this card in goblins, honestly. I just feel that it would give the deck a little push to compete with the efficiency of the format nowadays.
Frantic Search
Possible unbans in the future in this hypothetical:
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Simply a (much) better ad nauseam, in many ways. I've commented on this in the past here, but I think that it might be just a little bit risky to pull off since it's not like storm style decks are in a horrible place or anything. I think it would be fun, and wouldn't be at all back-breaking to the format at large. I don't think the push it gives to storm decks would be enough to put it 'over the edge' in the current meta, but in this hypothetical scenario (With the above three cards banned) it might be a little too much.
Survival of the Fittest
Same as the above, really I think nowadays it might not be too bad (creatures overall are much stronger, but answers to permanents such as these are very strong also), but in this hypothetical it might warrant some waiting to see how creature decks shape up after loosing aggressive tools such as Delver and TNN.
This is a very long post, so I wouldn't be too surprised if no one cared to read it, but my main argument is in the tl;dr above.
What do you think?
When was the last time we had a legacy grand Prix have something like this?
"There were 13 players who finished the day undefeated, with eight archetypes that break down as follows:
3 Bogles
2 Humans
2 Affinity
2 Mardu Pyromancer
1 Hollow One
1 Burn
1 Jund
1 Red-Green Tron"
All very different archetypes with different engines and win conditions. It's hilarious how legacy has so many more thousand cards available and yet it's so much less diverse
I think Mana Drain should be unbanned to foster more actual control, rather than midrange or tempo decks. WOTC reprinting it makes me think they have entertained this possibility. Yeah, it's a strong card; however, the average CMC of spells in legacy is quite low.
Counterspell is played only in passing, sometimes SB. Allowing control decks to turbo out their Jace or Auriok Salvagers (my biased preference haha) would be cool. I might even play Consecrated Sphinx in my deck, though probably not because it dies to REB. Drain is hardly played in Vintage! I'm old and I don't really like having to use creatures in my control deck to win. I would prefer Mishra's Factory beatdown or a morphling/baneslayer style card.
I don't disagree that Earthcraft would be perfectly fine to unban (Squirrelcraft is fairly mediocre by modern combo Standards, and the main deck it could benefit--Enchantress--is Tier 4 right now), but even setting aside the combo potential, it's better than Cryptolith Rite for two major reasons:Quote:
Originally Posted by niv
1) In Earthcraft, Earthcraft is tapping the creature, whereas Cryptolith Rite requires the creature to tap itself. This is important because it means that (excluding creatures with haste), Earthcraft can be used with a creature the turn it's played whereas Cryptolith Rite requires you to wait a turn.
2) Enchantress, the main deck Earthcraft would see play in, plays Abundant Growth and Wild Growth, which combine significantly better with Earthcraft than Cryptolith Rite.
The point about Gush is that Delver and other decks with low landcounts can enter their turn 3 with 2 lands in play and none in hand, float 2, Gush to draw two cards and then replay one of the lands. It reads:Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthVicious
0 mana - draw 2 cards, add one mana any of your Island cards can produce to your mana pool.
Of course it gets even more stupid with the likes of Fastbond, Exploration and the likes of Regrowth, Merchant Scroll, etc
I mean deck that must go off to win. In Legacy, ST or Storm must combo to win; where Elves or Lands don't have to and are considered hybrid combo decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
I would figure in order for such a deck to be relevant, it would need to gold fish faster than the midrange and aggro decks. Otherwise they can lose a footrace or via disruption. When these decks are allowed to be fast, they have an interesting impact on the meta because they force even the most aggressive fair decks to play "control"
AFAIK Modern, those decks fit my definition of "true combo". I didn't realise they were actually good, though! If I were to ever play Modern, Scapeshift is totally the deck I'd choose.
I totally get that about tiers. Lantern sounds like the real deal (and if it remain unpopular it may never get hit with the hammer).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
I would argue D&T is aggro/prison hybrid. In essence, it feels like a cross between Geddon Stacks and white Weenie-Geddon. I do consider Lands tier-1 as well. It's also less popular, but dollars-to-doughnuts says it's actually overrepresented at the top tables. RG Lands I consider a combo/prison hybrid, but blue lists with EE, Crucible, and fewer "combo" lands certainly lean more towards prison. So Legacy lacks a classic prison deck, but does have prisony options.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
Touché! Some say Eldrazi plays like Zoo, but I feel the reliance on ramp pieces makes "Stompy" a unique style. Fish puts up numbers occasionally. It looks tier-2, but also suffers from lack of popularity (and some consider it more Tempo - especially Daze builds). I tend to think Burn is a lot better than the numbers suggest (lack of skilled pilots), but I actually agree that a lack of linear aggro is the biggest gap in the Legacy meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
The weirdest decks in Legacy are Dredge (which doesn't cast spells) and Lands (which wins with lands and mostly only plays enablers). But I meant anything that throws a wrench in the game for "normal" decks and forces a different approach to strategy. These would tend to be fast combo or denial decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
Modern certainly sounds like it's come a long way from the "midrange" format of which it once bore the stigma. I do have a hard time understanding how a turn-4 combo deck can be good though.
Or,Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
0 mana - Counter target ability activated by a permanent named Wasteland or Rishadin Port, draw 2 cards.
In Legacy, absolutely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
And again, I wonder why we talk about Gush, SDT & Co in this thread atm, as if the top decks wouldn't just get stronger.
As long as brainstorm + ponder + fow + more cantrips and protection + some win cons.deck is by far the best deck we won't get this diversity. It'll just be this deck and thalia and chalice and glass cannon combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Allowing them to play around things like Choke and Winter Orb also. Gush is too many tricks in one barrel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Sad but true. We should just rename legacy "Magic: The Gathering Blue Edition"Quote:
Originally Posted by kinda
If people just want to watch each other jerk off with cantrips every single round I guess that's fine
Looking at individual top-8s invites a lot of randomness. If we look at the last 4 major events, we see top-8s for:Quote:
Originally Posted by kinda
- Crisis Tempo
- Elves
- Miracles
- Eldrazi Stompy
- Lands
- Dragon Stompy
- Storm
- Death blade
- Miracles
- S&T
- Leo-BUG
- Czech
- Maverick
If you don't see diversity there, you aren't looking.
The most tired mantra of this thread. :frown:Quote:
Originally Posted by kinda
If our analysis of archetypes is so superficial we can see Miracles, ANT, Delver, etc, as a a single deck, we will never experience diversity. MTG is a collectable game, but it's also a strategy game. Try looking at decks as not a collection of cards, but as a range of strategic options. Big difference.
Birds are characterised by feathers, toothless beaked jaws, the laying of hard-shelled eggs, a high metabolic rate, a four-chambered heart, and a strong yet lightweight skeleton. As long as this is by far the best type of bird we won't get diversity in birds. It'll just be this bird.
I'm sick of penguins being tier 2, they should have flying!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartesian
Don't be a shill for brainstorm...Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
collateral damage protecting the "pillar" of the format:
Sensei's Divining Top
12-Post
Doomsday
Painter
Old Miracles?
anyone else want to add to this list, go ahead...
Sure, we got penguins, emu, songbirds, owls, and everything in between.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartesian
We also have an alligator, a Whale, a human, and a hive of killer bees.
But until we get some four-legged mammals, I do not acknowledge diversity. I want my favourite pet, damn-it! Not these f'ing "specialty" animals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by non-inflammableQuote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
- Strategies are not colour-coded. Jund and Shardless use essentially the same strayegies. Only the tactics vary a little.
- My deck doesn't cast BS or any other blue spells. So kindly address my ideas rather than attacking my (fabricated) motivations. Cool?
Edit - funny how different Legacy looks if you actually enjoy any of the various non-cantrip decks...
Not to be pedantic, but this is one event vs 4. (it's also 13 decks vs. what 32?). And even looking at the engines we seeQuote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Cantrip engine
GSZ
8 Tombs
Loam
4 total between the 13 archetypes. 8 of them use the cantrip engine, and half of those could be classified as goodstuff piles (Maverick is the loan goodstuff deck that doesn't play it, and the only non-cantrip deck that doesn't have a way to end the game as early as turn 2). Frankly the mantra is tired because time and again it's proven true, cantrips win games.
Meanwhile when I look at the single Modern event (which, as a GP should theoretically filter out the bad decks and pilots ) I see a clear difference in how they win as well as how they execute their plan.
Hang on. This is getting off topic but isn't there some real logic to this? Not even just Chalice decks; if we accept that most games are decided turn 3 then having better starting 7's across the board should translate to better results, even if every 15th card is a brick. Hell you can even Brainstorm+fetch it away if you need to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce