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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Watersaw
Not to be pedantic, but this is one event vs 4.
And which gives a better representation of a metagame - looking at 1 major event, or 4?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Watersaw
And even looking at the engines we see
Cantrip engine
GSZ
8 Tombs
Loam
Elves is GZS + Glimpse + NO
Storm is built on rituals and tutors as much as cantrip.
S&T is cantrip as well as 8Tomb.
If we reduce decks to their base enablers we don't see the whole picture. Look at how each deck approaches it's matches, and you'll see a wealth of diversity. Ignore this, and see what you want to see (to justify a call for a shake-up, perhaps)?
Edit - I get that some people want more viable cores (and more equilibrium between the viable cores). That's fair. But to say we don't have diversity is objectively wrong.
Also, referring to every threat and answers in a fair deck collectively as "win conditions" (as in the post I had quoted) is either totally disingenuous, or ignorant in the extreme. Grows very tired.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Question to the cantrip haters.
What deck would you like to see viable in legacy right now?
(Please, no shitty answers, im asking about precise decks)
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
Looking at individual top-8s invites a lot of randomness. If we look at the last 4 major events, we see top-8s for:
- Crisis Tempo
- Elves
- Miracles
- Eldrazi Stompy
- Lands
- Dragon Stompy
- Storm
- Death blade
- Miracles
- S&T
- Leo-BUG
- Czech
- Maverick
Personally not interested in digging up the numbers myself, so take this as a disclaimer of how little of a shit I really give.
How many Maverick decks made it to the 32 possible lists? One? An outlier? I'm happy that it made it but an outlier in statistics is not something to pin your hopes too. How many Lands? How many Elves? That's a fine list as a short hand but I am sure if we graffed that data we would see some fairly obvious spikes and some rather basic trends.
Let's be honest, at a 4 round Fnm you can play Jund and do fine. Because lacking filtering doesn't matter in 4 rounds really. At a 15 round event you need it or you need to do something broken in some other form. Even then what your doing ends up forcing such constraints on you that you can be hated out often with a card.
Land's likes to play around Life from the Loam. Thus it's weak to mass land control. Elves is built around Glimpse, thus you need a lot of small cheep creatures. These fail to hold up against sweeping removal.
For every deck that is not playing Brainstorm they have to give up something to do so. Consistency, interaction, open new weaknesses. Often these decks will either share an identity or share nothing at all. Elves and Maverick share a similar plan, to a point. Elves and Lands share... a Forest and some fetches I guess.
I saw something about how birds are all made of the same core elements but are different. Sure. I get you point, here's mine. Elves is your Penguin, Lands is your Emu and the blue stew is your 280 odd different kind of Pidgin. So diverse, all of the fuckers just want my chips and they all try and get to them the same fucking way. Feels apt as a comparison actually. Good call.
Also I'll be fair, Blue has an enemy in Chalice. Good thing those decks have the consistency of bus on a public holiday so you don't really have to worry about them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Noctalor
Question to the cantrip haters.
What deck would you like to see viable in legacy right now?
(Please, no shitty answers, im asking about precise decks)
Goblins, Maverick (An outlier is not a trend), Thresh (Can't believe I'm saying that) and Zoo. I know that's all not going to happen though, so hey, bigger fool me. I guess I just miss 2009.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
Looking at individual top-8s invites a lot of randomness. If we look at the last 4 major events, we see top-8s for:
- Crisis Tempo
- Elves
- Miracles
- Eldrazi Stompy
- Lands
- Dragon Stompy
- Storm
- Death blade
- Miracles
- S&T
- Leo-BUG
- Czech
- Maverick
If you don't see diversity there, you aren't looking.
You are mixing Maverick with 1x presence sometimes with 3x always deck like brainstorm control no sense.
There are no good cards as brainstorm in legacy, draw 3 clean your hand and shuffle the deck with ponder or fetch. Nothing as this power level, infact there are no blue deck without brainstorm, while there are green deck without goyf or black deck without drs.
Some combo deck like TES play blue only for ponder and brainstorm.
Deal with it this is a format that is a brainstorm tirranny, the only way to change it is to ban brainstorm.
Even If WOTC \ Hasbro print good aggro green red white cards, they will be mixed with brainstorm shell, just giving power to the same deck. Also in wiz are so stupid to print blue creature more powerfull than green like delver or TNN.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
And which gives a better representation of a metagame - looking at 1 major event, or 4?
Elves is GZS + Glimpse + NO
Storm is built on rituals and tutors as much as cantrip.
S&T is cantrip as well as 8Tomb.
If we reduce decks to their base enablers we don't see the whole picture. Look at how each deck approaches it's matches, and you'll see a wealth of diversity. Ignore this, and see what you want to see (to justify a call for a shake-up, perhaps)?
The point was that the two data sets shouldn't even be compared, as one is a single set of 13 while the other is 4 sets of 8. Even then the Modern list is more complete as it tells us the exact quantity of each of the 8 deck archetypes to go x-0. We also know the event, so we have context for time and place. The Legacy list just tells us that out of 32 decks across 4 different events there was at least one instance of each of those 13.
At any rate the argument is about the enablers, so if course we reduce the deck to them. That is what actually matters here, there is a clear correct choice as to what is the best shell across the board.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
Land's likes to play around Life from the Loam. Thus it's weak to mass land control. Elves is built around Glimpse, thus you need a lot of small cheep creatures. These fail to hold up against sweeping removal.
For every deck that is not playing Brainstorm they have to give up something to do so.
Good-stuff blue piles give up resilience to waste-lock + removal. Every deck in Legacy has it's vulnerabilities
We don't need every cantrip deck to have a single vulnerability, because - news flash for some - they are not a single deck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
Also I'll be fair, Blue has an enemy in Chalice. Good thing those decks have the consistency of bus on a public holiday so you don't really have to worry about them.
Eldrazi has been DTB for 5 straight months, and Dragon Stompy has top--8ed twice in the last 4 major events (including a 1st place). Definitely a relevant presence in the meta.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Watersaw
The point was that the two data sets shouldn't even be compared...
Absolutely right! For a more accurate comparison, we should look at multiple Modern events as well.
Lots of scrutiny over the data from the last 4 major legacy events, but we ate shown a single Modern event and expected to accept it as representative of the format's diversity. Yeah.
That isolated datum from Modern should not have been admissible as evidence at all.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zulabnar
You are mixing Maverick with 1x presence sometimes with 3x always deck like brainstorm control no sense.
I am simply listing decks that made top-8 in a recent major event. Not saying maverick is on equal footing with Czech, or even that it's tier-1.
That said, I'd love to see the conversion rates for Maverick!
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
Goblins, Maverick (An outlier is not a trend), Thresh (Can't believe I'm saying that) and Zoo. I know that's all not going to happen though, so hey, bigger fool me. I guess I just miss 2009.
Goblin got power creeped, is not really about brainstorm, goblin is hopeless as long as it doesn't get some new prints, and arguably cantrip decks are the best goblin can face currently
Maverik is honestly quite good right now, I think it will get played more and more as time passes, right now maverik is possibly just straight up better than D&T, or at least on the same power level, still, in legacy it take ages for people to adapt.
Sadly, thresh will underperform, by definition the deck was the pile of the most efficient tempo plays + the most efficient threats, DRS has to leave for it to be relevant, also, cantrips need to stay for it to be a deck
Zoo pretty much got power creeped by black, big zoo basicly turned into Jund (which is arguably not that good still, i agree) and aggro zoo is in fact just dead, still, no cantrips would not really help zoo that much, both maverik and jund are better options.
I personally miss Goblin aswell, hey even Spiral which was my bread and butter since the goblin vs solidarity meta, but as it happens in every card game, power creep exists, and out of the 4 decks you mentioned, pretty much all of them just got power creeped out of the format.
The only real loser here is zoo, which just got obsolete, mostly because GRW are pretty much the worst 3 colors of the game, there is basicly not a single card good enough to carry that color combination
I would prefer new, interesting prints, rather than bans, cantrips are not gonna matter unless a mass ban happens,
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Noctalor
Maverik is honestly quite good right now, I think it will get played more and more as time passes, right now maverik is possibly just straight up better than D&T, or at least on the same power level, still, in legacy it take ages for people to adapt.
If Maverick becomes tier-1 again (and supplants D&T) I predict a lot less noise in these forums.
Obviously Maverick adds a lot more diversity than D&T. :rolleyes:
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
It's comical that some try to split up the DRS + Blue Shell decks based on if they ran Leovold, TNN or Pyromancer and call that diversity
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
It's comical that some try to split up the DRS + Blue Shell decks based on if they ran Leovold, TNN or Pyromancer and call that diversity
I would distinguish Czech vs Grixis Tempo as one being an (albeit grindy) tempo deck, while the other leans to control and is more firmly a midrange deck. From the Who's The Beat down perspective, Grixis is hoping to play beat down, while Czech hopes to play control.
But I agree that these decks are not that different. These decks are only slightly more different than BUG is to Jund , or High Tide is Solidarity, or TES is to ANT.
Personally I think diversity is driven by the enormous share of the meta that is collectively occupied by Lands, Elves, Eldrazi, D&T, ANT, S&T, Miracles, Depths, Prowess, and other relevant but less prominent decks. Sadly these aren't the decks people seem to want to see, so they don't count as providing diversity.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
Good-stuff blue piles give up resilience to waste-lock + removal. Every deck in Legacy has it's vulnerabilities
We don't need every cantrip deck to have a single vulnerability, because - news flash for some - they are not a single deck.
Lots of scrutiny over the data from the last 4 major legacy events, but we ate shown a single Modern event and expected to accept it as representative of the format's diversity. Yeah.
Fine, I'll take the bait.
In this day and age "good-stuff blue piles" is largely synonymous with "Blue + DRS." These lists are notorious for running 3+ colors alongside their own Wasteland. The card is really not great against them.
As for the perfectly justifiable scrutiny, you presented an incomplete data set as gospel in response to a snapshot of one event. Here, I'm assuming these are the events you took from.
GP Seattle http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18985&f=LE
1664 players - 07/04/18
1 Grixis Delver - Daniel Duterte2 BUG Leovold - Jeremy Dezani
3 Lands - Sam Black
4 Miracles - Keaton Wood
5 Grixis Delver - Noah Walker
6 4c Control - Steve Rubin
7 Miracles - Luke Purcell
8 Maverick - Miranda Keith
SCG Team Open Cincinnati http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18846&f=LE
341 players - 24/03/18
1 Grixis Delver - Joe Bernal
2 Grixis Delver - Erik Rose
3/4 Lands - Matthew Dilks
3/4 Miracles - James Baker
5/8 Dragon Stompy - Edward Drew
5/8 Grixis Delver - Tannon Grace
5/8 Miracles - Bernie Wen
5/8 Show and Tell - Dylan Kirkpatrick
Grand Prix Madrid Team Constructed http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18737&f=LE
354 players - 11/03/18
1 Eldrazi Aggro - Charles Eliatamby
2 4c Control - Thomas Enevoldsen
3/4 Dragon Stompy - Alessandro Lippi
3/4 Dragon Stompy - Per Nyström
5/8 BUG Threshold - Javier Dominguez
5/8 Dark Depths- Vladimir Arneuve
5/8 Stoneblade - Jasper Grimmer
5/8 UR Delver -Alessandro Manzini
SCG Classic Worcester* http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18670&f=LE
206 players - 04/03/18
1 Dragon Stompy - Zac Turgeon
2 Storm - Ethan Formichella
3/4 Grixis Delver - Dylan Gellis
3/4 Lands - Kevin King
5/8 4c Stoneblade - William Moore
5/8 Grixis Delver - Patrick Foote
5/8 Lands - Ross Mcgee
5/8 Storm - Chad Uzzell
Final count (deck - top8/top4)
Grixis Delver - 7/4
Lands - 4/3
Miracles - 4/2
Dragon Stompy - 4/3
4c Control - 2/1
Storm - 2/1
BUG Leovold - 1/1
Eldrazi Aggro - 1/1
Maverick - 1/0
Show and Tell - 1/0
BUG Threshold - 1/0
Dark Depths - 1/0
Stoneblade -1/0
UR Delver - 1/0
4c Stoneblade - 1/0
*BONUS - SCG Legacy Open Worcester http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18668&f=LE
719 players - 03/03/18 (one day prior to the previous event, more than 3 times as many players)
1 Grixis Delver - Drake Sasser
2 Elves - Ben Feingersh
3/4 Grixis Delver - Jeffrey White
3/4 Miracles - Jim Davis
5/8 Eldrazi Aggro - Dylan Hand
5/8 Grixis Delver - Jonathan Sukenik
5/8 Grixis Delver - Noah Walker
5/8 Lands - Adam Falls
Adding this, our data is
Final count (deck - top8/top4)
Grixis Delver -11/5
Miracles - 5/3
Lands - 4/4
Dragon Stompy - 4/3
4c Control - 2/1
Storm - 2/1
Eldrazi Aggro - 2/1
BUG Leovold - 1/1
Elves - 1/1
Maverick - 1/0
Show and Tell - 1/0
BUG Threshold - 1/0
Dark Depths - 1/0
Stoneblade -1/0
UR Delver - 1/0
4c Stoneblade - 1/0
Four of the five events have predominantly cantrip-based decks in the top 8. Count follows as
GP Seattle - 6
SCG Team Open Cincinnati - 6
Grand Prix Madrid Team Constructed - 4
SCG Classic Worcester - 5
SCG Legacy Open Worcester - 5
26/40 or 65%, less then I actually expected.
For top 4 the numbers are 12/24. 50% even. EDIT: I can't count. 12/20, 60%.
Eldrazi Aggro has placed twice of the 40 listed entries, at those numbers it's even with 4c Control and Storm. Dragon Stompy's presence is a surprise to me, if there are any caveats they are that (1) it is only represented in events with less than 500 players and (2) the one event is did win was a much smaller event the same weekend as an Open.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Thanks for making this post!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Watersaw
As for the perfectly justifiable scrutiny, you presented an incomplete data set as gospel in response to a snapshot of one event. Here, I'm assuming these are the events you took from.
I omitted the team event. Not sure where this gospel stuff comes from. I just figured looking recent (major) top-8s would provide some insight into the meta and what is viable. Not saying those 4 lists define the meta.
My point was that we don't need a wide range of decks to all do well in a single event. If multiple decks are succeeding over a few separate events, that's just as good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Watersaw
Four of the five events have predominantly cantrip-based decks in the top 8.
I have an issue with categorising decks based on the presence of cantrip. This is an arbitrary division in that +/- cantrip doesn't give any information what the deck actually does, which matches it likes, etc. eg, Miracles and ANT are close to as different as 2 decks can be (way more different than, eg, Maverick vs Czech).
To me this is (almost) akin to complaining that too many decks have the exact same land count. That simply doesn't define a deck at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Watersaw
In this day and age "good-stuff blue piles" is largely synonymous with "Blue + DRS." These lists are notorious for running 3+ colors alongside their own Wasteland. The card is really not great against them.
I am willing to consider these decks collectively. As you say, these are good-stuff aggro control decks that only differ in the degree of aggression and the specific (similarly functioning) threats and answers.
Looking at paper data from MTG top8, these decks make up about 1/3 of the meta. That is pretty high, but:
- These decks are not 100% the same. eg, we are including Stoneblade.
- This is a lot higher than it has been lately (I've been checking regularly) We can't assume the past 2 months are a trend that will stick.
If good-stuff blue+DRS sustains this meta-share, I could be open to supporting a ban (but not insisting on a ban). If it comes to it, my vote would be to lose DRS and keep BS. Reasons being:
- DRS feeds good-stuff decks almost exclusively (BS supports other strategies).
- Banning DRS will have a more drastic effect, as the gap between DRS and the next best replacement is probably more significant.
Basically DRS is a midrange value engine that promotes good-stuff decks. If too many good-stuff aggro/control decks is the issue, that is the obvious solution IMO.
Honestly I wouldn't miss either card much (unless of course the meta goes to complete shit).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Watersaw
Eldrazi Aggro has placed twice of the 40 listed entries, at those numbers it's even with 4c Control and Storm. Dragon Stompy's presence is a surprise to me, if there are any caveats they are that (1) it is only represented in events with less than 500 players and (2) the one event is did win was a much smaller event the same weekend as an Open.
Eldrazi seems to be on a downswing after 5 months of DTB status (and holding 2nd place overall for a while according to MTG top8 paper data). But it is normal for Legacy to ebb and flow a bit. Don't count it out.
re Dragon Stompy, also worth considering that we can assume a relatively tiny player base. That makes those numbers extremely impressive IMO.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Interesting stat, according to mtgtop8 the top two most played nonland modern cards are lighting bolt at 37% and fatal push at 19%. What this tells me is modern has one established tier 1 card in bolt. Legacy has 4 cards played in over 40% of decks. Plus 7 tier 2 cards in the 20-39% range. I still prefer legacy over modern but think this could be improved.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
So from watersaws paper result crunch we have DRS goodstuff at 60% within the top 8s and with a 33% metashare according to crimhead.
That sounds like it's overperforming more than Miracles did at it's time
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
I guess I just miss 2009.
Same here. The period from 2009 to 2011 was by far the most enjoyable Legacy has ever felt to me. Then we started doing this whole Griselbrand, Delver thing and archetypes changed quite a lot and the whole format did speed up a lot.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
I guess we all just miss when tempo and aggro-control had to choose between it's colors and tools accordingly to not get fucked over in the mirror, Painter & Co.
The whole thing went to shit then people ran run Shardless Agent, Hymn to Tourach and Meddling Mage in the same deck. Everything we see today is just natural development
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
Thanks for making this post!
I have an issue with categorising decks based on the presence of cantrip. This is an arbitrary division in that +/- cantrip doesn't give any information what the deck actually does, which matches it likes, etc. eg, Miracles and ANT are close to as different as 2 decks can be (way more different than, eg, Maverick vs Czech).
That's your problem. Those deck are categorised by common cards. Because we talk about cards not about decks.
Power level of those cards is high, infact Tempo decks, Combo decks, and control decks use the same shell (brain + Ponder).
It means those cards are just too good for any strategy to not choose to put in.
This is why Brainstorm and Ponder are to good. While DRS no. Infact combo decks not use DRS, and also MIracle does not use DRS.
You can finde decks playin DRS + Brainstorm + Ponder, or deck playing Brainstorm+ Ponder.
Deck that plays DRS without Brainstorm + Ponder are not tier 1 , it's just an accident? i don't think so.
http://tcdecks.net/metagame.php Loof top 3 decks are just control with brain + ponder shell.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
So from watersaws paper result crunch we have DRS goodstuff at 60% within the top 8s and with a 33% metashare according to crimhead.
That sounds like it's overperforming more than Miracles did at it's time
The difference is one month vs a long time.
Worth noting watetsaws was counting all cantrip decks, not just DRS/cantrip decks. Miracles, Tempo, Storm, S&T, etc. I believe during SDT's heyday cantrip decks were over 70% (hovered between 60%-75%)
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Noctalor
Question to the cantrip haters.
What deck would you like to see viable in legacy right now?
(Please, no shitty answers, im asking about precise decks)
I wouldn’t really consider myself a cantrip hater, but I do tire of starting every deck the same way.
I would like to see more decks that operate on different engines. Fair/Grindy applications of Faithless Looting, for example, like the old Zombardment deck or modern’s BRw pyromancer deck.
I’d like to see Dark Confidant come back as a good card, or for Smuggler’s Copter to get a chance to break out.
And before someone links me to some rando list that uses some of these cards... I mean in the way that there would actually be a meaningful decision to make about what deck you would select. Everyone knows that a Brainstorm and buddies deck is the way to go.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zulabnar
Those deck are categorised by common cards. Because we talk about cards not about decks.
If we want to meaningfully discuss diversity in a strategy game, we talk about strategies. Strategies are linked to decks or match-ups more so than to individual cards - especially cards that are enablers or filters.
DRS pushes a certain (narrow) range of strategies - debatably to uncomfortable levels. BS does not push that strategy. Take BS away and the best DRS decks get worse, but so does much of the rest of field. Hard to say where the chips will fall. Take DRS away, and pretty much only one kind of deck gets worse - the kind that is (allegedly) too good.
Now if the goal is not to make fair decks worse, but to make them change colours and cores, by all means ban BS not DRS. So what exactly is the problem? Too many decks of a similar play-styles, or the fact that they are mostly blue (instead of mostly green)?
TLDR, a DRS ban could be sold as defending strategic diversity. A BS ban would be better sold as defending colour or core-enabler diversity.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maharis
I would like to see more decks that operate on different engines. Fair/Grindy applications of Faithless Looting, for example, like the old Zombardment deck or modern’s BRw pyromancer deck.
I’d like to see Dark Confidant come back as a good card, or for Smuggler’s Copter to get a chance to break out.
I really liked the old Zombardment lists! The old builds with Humility. I Always wanted that deck to take off.
I also get excited whenever I see Merfolk placing. Was a list that top-8ed recently that ran a Scooter. I'd like to see that breaking out. Where else do you see Looter Scooter? I only really picture it in aggro decks. Maybe Affinity? Do you think it could be midrange viable?
Bob I could take or leave. It's another value engine with legs, not exciting to me personally. But I get how it would be nice if you like value engines with legs.
I'm not sure cantrip are what's holding those decks back.
- Bob's last home was Shadeless, and he got power crept out by better creatures.
- Affinity and Fish struggled when Maverick was king g of the hill. Worse so by the time Jund supplanted Maverick. Midrange killed aggro by getting superior tools across the board.
- Bombardment... Who the fuck knows what that would need?
I could see maybe Bob coming back if they ban enough cantrips that Leotard becomes undesirable main deck. But a ban of that caliber would wreak unpredictable havoc, so it's hard to say.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
DRS is on my ban vote for tomorrow, here's looking to a coming of the new Golden Age in Legacy.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Ban Deathrite, Brainstorm, and Ponder. I'm all for that.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
zulander
Ban Deathrite, Brainstorm, and Ponder. I'm all for that.
May I point you over towards Modern? Seems like what you are looking for.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Forsythe on Twitter tonight: https://twitter.com/mtgaaron/status/985674571188588544
Replying to someone saying Workshop needs a restriction in Vintage, he says:
Quote:
It's one of the "pillars of the format" that makes it unique and players tolerate/love. It's like Brainstorm in Legacy. Every saturation metric we could ever invent would point to it being banned, but people love it. Transgressive stuff needs a place to live.
Is this as close as we've come to an official "no, we're never going to ban Brainstorm" statement?
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ubernostrum
Yes
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Wow. Brainstorm is now officially a pillar. Can we lock down this thread now as it's dead?
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
I'd love it if DCI took a closer look at the possibility of managing a restricted list in legacy. I don't know about the history of not doing this but it feels like it would be fresh and interesting.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
I find it more concerning that Wizards apparently adopted the concept of "pillar of formats" (which basically originated from various internet platforms of the MtG community) as a tool to handle the development of formats...Yesterday I reread TomLapille's article on the Mystical Tutor Ban from 2010 and wished they would still pursue a comparable "holistic" approach that looks at the overall state of the format.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
I am disappointed but not surprised. I only wish this had of been said in black and white years ago. Oh wait, it was, every ban announcement.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Erdvermampfa
I find it more concerning that Wizards apparently adopted the concept of "pillar of formats" (which basically originated from various internet platforms of the MtG community) as a tool to handle the development of formats...Yesterday I reread TomLapille's article on the Mystical Tutor Ban from 2010 and wished they would still pursue a comparable "holistic" approach that looks at the overall state of the format.
That article was the most ridiculous ban justification in the history of MTG and resulted in LaPille being moved to D&D as a result for years. I don't think we should encourage WotC to abuse strawmen instead of tournament data for bannings. I still don't know how 2-3 games against casuals in the practice room are worth more than years of tournament data, or why the idiot is part of the MTG brand again.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
On the Forsythe article - we're up for banning anything unless people like it. Hypocritical bullshit. I'm fine with keeping the fun police around (really can't have Legacy without it), but everything else should be susceptible to banning.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
On the Forsythe article - we're up for banning anything unless people like it. Hypocritical bullshit. I'm fine with keeping the fun police around (really can't have Legacy without it), but everything else should be susceptible to banning.
This is fun policing. Straight up. It's managing The ban list based on what they think players enjoy rather than by tournament data. That's the definition of fun policing, is it not?
Though to be fair, ArFo said:
Quote:
Every saturation metric we could ever invent would point to it being banned
He didn't say that saturation alone as a metric was ever enough to put a card on the block.
If he is like MaRo, I wouldn't infer anything unless he literally states it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Wow. Brainstorm is now officially a pillar. Can we lock down this thread now as it's dead?
Why should it be dead? The banned list is not fixed - that's just one card.
If your only interest in ban list updates is whether or not BS gets the axe, then I guess the thread is pretty much dead to you.
I don't care too much about Brainstorm, but I was hoping WotC might change their mind about Workshop in Vintage. But that's only because I want one for EDH.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Do people think Drs will be banned? I think this is the only card with a legitimate possibility.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
I only hope for Fetchlands not being the "pillar of the format"
Based on what Forsyth said, there a many people who don't like Fetchlands, too much shuffling.
Maybe they will ban them because people don't like them :tongue:
I personaly hate them since they were printed in Onslaught.
At least it will make DRS, Brainstorm less powerful.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Matsu
I only hope for Fetchlands not being the "pillar of the format"
Based on what Forsyth said, there a many people who don't like Fetchlands, too much shuffling.
Maybe they will ban them because people don't like them :tongue:
I personaly hate them since they were printed in Onslaught.
At least it will make DRS, Brainstorm less powerful.
They are not going to ban Fetchlands.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
The difference is one month vs a long time.
Worth noting watetsaws was counting all cantrip decks, not just DRS/cantrip decks. Miracles, Tempo, Storm, S&T, etc. I believe during SDT's heyday cantrip decks were over 70% (hovered between 60%-75%)
Truefax. This data set is only a one month period. Additionally the events vary wildly in size from 200 players to over 1,000. Thirdly SCG Worcester is an outlier with half the Top 8 being a single deck. It's also the second largest event.
God I hate statistics.
Deck - Top 8/Top 4
Deathrite Blue - 16/7 (11/5 being Grixis Delver)
Chalice - 6/4 (4/3 being Dragon Stompy)
Other Blue - 6/2 (4/2 being Miracles)
Loam - 4/3 (4/3 being Lands. wew Addendum: Even though there are no other Loam archetypes represented I didn't want to make lands its own category. Furthermore I'm not that familiar with the deck but all 4/3 appear to be R/G combo lists.)
Cantrip Combo - 3/1 (2/1 being Storm)
NonBlue DRS - 3/1 (2/1 being GSZ decks)
Wonder of Wonders, you are better off sleeving up Chalice of the Void than playing Deathrite Shaman without blue support. Grixis Delver is far and away the best thing you could be doing, even if we ignore SCG Worcester it's score is 7/4. Also worth noting, non-Grixis Blue Deathrite decks comes in at 5/2, making them worse overall than Chalice (6/4) and NonDRS, NonCombo Blue (6/2).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ubernostrum
well shit.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
This is fun policing. Straight up. It's managing The ban list based on what they think players enjoy rather than by tournament data. That's the definition of fun policing, is it not?
Fun police to me is the suite of 0 mana counters we have available.
If Brainstorm is to never be banned, at least entertain the idea of banning the next worst offender (so Ponder).
Every blue deck nowadays starts off w/ 4 Brainstorm & 4 Ponder and is very likely to run 4 FoW & 4 Daze as well. Add in some lands and about 50% of every deck is pretty much set in stone before even a single choice is made. Am I the only one that finds that boring..?
