All B/R update speculation.

You know it's 2018 and Modern is a different format right? Apples and oranges. Regardless, I'm sure if you tried that for 2012 for Legacy, you would probably be able to cobble together a starter deck for legacy.

Let's do it:

https://mtgtop8.com/topcards

I put in the filter of most played cards for all decks in 2012, for reference.

Card Name Decks Avg

Page 1 (Tier 1)

Brainstorm 61.5 % 4.0
Force of Will 57.3 % 3.8
Wasteland 54.1 % 3.6
Misty Rainforest 46.8 % 2.8
Ponder 42.1 % 3.4
Scalding Tarn 36.9 % 3.0
Polluted Delta 35.3 % 2.9
Swords to Plowshares 35.1 % 3.9
Volcanic Island 34.3 % 2.6
Flooded Strand 32.4 % 3.1
Karakas 32.2 % 1.2
Spell Pierce 32.2 % 2.7
Daze 30.3 % 3.4
Tropical Island 28.6 % 2.8
Jace, the Mind Sculptor 26.8 % 2.8
Snapcaster Mage 24.5 % 3.0
Umezawa's Jitte 24.5 % 1.3
Tarmogoyf 23.8 % 3.5
Underground Sea 22.9 % 2.7
Tundra 22.8 % 3.1

Page 2 (tier 2)

Stoneforge Mystic 21.7 % 3.4
Lightning Bolt 21.0 % 3.9
Vendilion Clique 20.8 % 1.9
Delver of Secrets 20.0 % 4.0
Sensei's Divining Top 18.8 % 2.8
Spell Snare 18.8 % 2.6
Scavenging Ooze 18.5 % 1.6
Batterskull 16.6 % 1.0
Green Sun's Zenith 16.6 % 3.6
Savannah 16.5 % 2.7
Windswept Heath 16.5 % 3.3
Counterspell 16.1 % 1.7
Verdant Catacombs 16.1 % 2.7
Wooded Foothills 15.2 % 2.3
Thoughtseize 14.9 % 2.4
Nimble Mongoose 14.8 % 3.8
Dryad Arbor 14.5 % 1.0
Knight of the Reliquary 12.9 % 3.9
Sylvan Library 12.7 % 1.3
Stifle 12.6 %


Have fun with Bant Stoneblade-ish deck. I'm sure it would be a fine starter deck.

Let's do it for Modern:

https://mtgtop8.com/topcards

Page 1 (tier 1)

Misty Rainforest 44.5 % 2.9
Scalding Tarn 35.7 % 3.5
Lightning Bolt 35.2 % 3.9
Stomping Ground 33.6 % 1.2
Steam Vents 29.6 % 2.0
Verdant Catacombs 29.4 % 3.8
Marsh Flats 28.8 % 2.3
Path to Exile 27.6 % 3.6
Overgrown Tomb 25.4 % 1.6
Arid Mesa 25.3 % 3.0
Tarmogoyf 24.7 % 3.9
Kitchen Finks 24.0 % 3.1
Serum Visions 23.8 % 3.8
Snapcaster Mage 23.0 % 3.6
Inquisition of Kozilek 22.6 % 3.2
Blood Crypt 21.0 % 1.4
Hallowed Fountain 19.6 % 1.7
Dark Confidant 19.0 % 3.9
Blackcleave Cliffs 18.7 % 3.9
Thoughtseize 18.1 % 2.4

Page 2 (tier 2)

Mana Leak 17.7 % 3.3
Breeding Pool 17.2 % 1.3
Temple Garden 16.7 % 1.3
Liliana of the Veil 16.4 % 3.2
Vendilion Clique 15.8 % 2.5
Bloodbraid Elf 15.7 % 4.0
Remand 15.7 % 3.4
Treetop Village 15.1 % 3.1
Cryptic Command 14.8 % 2.6
Inkmoth Nexus 14.1 % 3.7
Sacred Foundry 14.0 % 1.2
Spell Snare 13.9 % 2.9
Raging Ravine 13.4 % 2.3
Noble Hierarch 13.0 % 3.0
Spellskite 12.8 % 1.7
Terminate 12.7 % 2.0
Twilight Mire 12.5 % 1.9
Delver of Secrets 12.0 % 4.0
Grim Lavamancer 12.0 % 2.5
Birds of Paradise 12.0 % 3.7

Take your pick, Jund or some combination of mid-range good stuff. Would make a fine starter deck for modern. Look, even Bloodbraid Elf is legal again without Deathrite Shaman! It's actually a pretty spot-on call. I might do this...EDIT: This was sarcasm fyi...

new deck building strategy: Just make adjusting piles completely based on popularity %s, update every month

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

Good-stuff cards will always see more play than narrow cards, so when the top performing deck uses these cards, they are going to be everywhere. If the top performing deck were playing fewer all-purpose versatile cards (say Storm, D&T, Miracles, or whatever), its cards would not see as much play in other decks.

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Infact what we are writing is that some cards power level is huge. It means that If You want to win You have to chose first of alla BRAINSTORM because the power level of this card is awesome compared to other cards.

Quote:

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This is a tautology. "If you take all the most played cards and put them into a list, then made a deck out of those cards, it would resemble the most played deck." The list is generated from the most played decks and the cards that populate those decks.

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that's not true. There are card COMMON to the most played decks. Infact You find earlier Jace or Thoughtseize than Gurmag.

The reality is that some cards are too damn good (Overpowered) to play without if You want to win, otherwise You can play other decks. Combo. Aggro is not possible.

Brainstorm is the most powerfull and so most played card . Is good for control, tempo, aggro\control, combo etc. And ponder is following.

Brainstorm is overpowered because it let You draw 3 and keep all those 3 cards until You have other 2 to put on top of the deck

You clean your hand, removing the wood You draw in start 7.
You have 2 lands in hand ? play brainstorm and find jace fow and blue card? wow, from shit to stars.
You have an average hand with brainstorm, trasnform it and shiuffle with a fetch.
Oppo plays duress\tseize\cabal, let me cover my bomb with brainstorm
I have a land and a brainstorm in my starting 7? ok i keep

Without the interaction with fetchland brainstorm will not be so powerfull, but with this interaction given, (or ban all the fetchlands?) brainstorm is too overpowered. This is why a ban is the correct thing to do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zulabnar

You clean your hand, removing the wood You draw in start 7.
You have 2 lands in hand ? play brainstorm and find jace fow and blue card? wow, from shit to stars.
You have an average hand with brainstorm, trasnform it and shiuffle with a fetch.
Oppo plays duress\tseize\cabal, let me cover my bomb with brainstorm
I have a land and a brainstorm in my starting 7? ok i keep

---

What a brainstorm do? Draw card and activate on draw effects fix hand, removing woods.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Amazingxkcd

new deck building strategy: Just make adjusting piles completely based on popularity %s, update every month

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We are all witnesses to the next GP Champion right here.

Now I just need a Legacy GP in the Chicagoland area

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zulabnar

Infact what we are writing is that some cards power level is huge. It means that If You want to win You have to chose first of alla BRAINSTORM because the power level of this card is awesome compared to other cards.

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Or one of the established tier decks that don't run Brainstorm.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

Or one of the established tier decks that don't run Brainstorm.

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http://tcdecks.net/metagame.php?form...y&fecha=2018-3

sum the number and tell me if is more probable if i play brainsotrm or not to be in t8.

The question was if the top 1/3rd of decks would share the same 48-52 cards. Still, this isn't looking at individual deck lists, but just overall card usage from a given data set. If you drilled down into the diverse spread 4c delver, Slower 4c Delver, BUG delver, Grixis Delver, and Miracles, then things might look different.

2018 Legacy:

Quote:

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Brainstorm 57.7 % 4.0
Ponder 54.2 % 3.8
Force of Will 51.9 % 3.9
Polluted Delta 49.9 % 3.2
Wasteland 44.6 % 3.7
Volcanic Island 42.1 % 2.2
Deathrite Shaman 40.1 % 3.9
Tropical Island 39.2 % 1.4
Underground Sea 38.9 % 2.5
Misty Rainforest 38.1 % 2.4
Scalding Tarn 34.4 % 2.8

---

Rounded up, 34/60

2012 Legacy:

Quote:

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Brainstorm 61.5 % 4.0
Force of Will 57.3 % 3.8
Wasteland 54.1 % 3.6
Misty Rainforest 46.8 % 2.8
Ponder 42.1 % 3.4
Scalding Tarn 36.9 % 3.0
Polluted Delta 35.3 % 2.9
Swords to Plowshares 35.1 % 3.9
Volcanic Island 34.3 % 2.6

---

31 cards

Modern:

Quote:

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Misty Rainforest 44.5 % 2.9
Scalding Tarn 35.7 % 3.5
Lightning Bolt 35.2 % 3.9
Stomping Ground 33.6 % 1.2

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11 cards...Bolt being the only distinct card. Ban Lightning Bolt.

So you could say that the majority Legacy has been stagnant since 2012, only shifting really Swords for DRS (Not looking at lands). I'm actually surprised at that.

What's further interesting is I'd assume that shell was Delver, but Delver only goes from 20% in 2012 to 22% in 2018.

Hard to say really, since once you get data and start digging into it, there's all sorts of ways to interpret and sell your own view point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zulabnar

http://tcdecks.net/metagame.php?form...y&fecha=2018-3

sum the number and tell me if is more probable if i play brainsotrm or not to be in t8.

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• BS's success is spread over a lot more decks. eg, the fact that Miracles also plays BS does not make, eg, S&T somehow more likely to place.
• Top-8 lists without conversion rates do not provide a statistical bases for the likleyhood of an individual entrant placing with that deck.
• How many times has this been pointed out? Yawn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Claymore

What's further interesting is I'd assume that shell was Delver, but Delver only goes from 20% in 2012 to 22% in 2018.

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Part if the reason is that many DRS decks skip the fragile Delver thanks to the pretty common (pseudo-)mirrors in the current meta and tend to different creatures like snapcaster, TNN, Pyromancer which Bolt & Co can't trade even with

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zulabnar

http://tcdecks.net/metagame.php?form...y&fecha=2018-3

sum the number and tell me if is more probable if i play brainsotrm or not to be in t8.

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I'd like to address this once more because it comes up a lot and it's among the most erroneous things I see in print (edited for civility).

Let's go back 5 or 6 years to the time that Jund was losing much of it's meta share to to Shardless. When that shift happened, BS started showing up a little more in the top8s, and GSZ a little less. Would you conclude that, eg, Elves had gotten worse because GSZ has become an objectively weaker card in every deck that runs it?

I sure hope not. BS went up and GSZ goes down precisely because Shardless is better than Jund. That shift does not mean that every other GSZ deck has become a bigger dog, and that other BS decks become more favoured. Decks will get better or worse because the meta changed and they see different pairings. But your deck never gets better or worse based on whether or not other good decks play similar cards.

Essentially, people talk about the probability of winning with a BS deck as the sum of the probabilities of winning with every BS deck.It doesn't work like that. You have to consider the probability of winning with each individual deck, because an individual deck is all you ever get to get to play. You can't play every BS deck simultaneously; and you don't get to absorb the chance of winning with a different deck and add it to your chance of winning with the deck you actually chose.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

You know it's 2018 and Modern is a different format right? Apples and oranges. Regardless, I'm sure if you tried that for 2012 for Legacy, you would probably be able to cobble together a starter deck for legacy.

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You were the one throwing around expensive words like tautology, so I tried it for different years and different formats. 2012's most played cards couldn't just be scooped up into 1 pile and be called a deck, unless you wanted to play some weird shit with plows, goyfs, delvers, jaces and some random karakas... So, no, I am not convinced. 2018's most played cards just show how badly homogonized legacy has become.

Agreed that it's not a tautology. If the four most played decks were 33% Goblins, 27% Merfolk, 20% Sneak & Show, and 20% BR Reanimator, the most played spells piled together would build a Vial Goblins deck that ran Force of Will (common in Merfolk and Sneak & Show) and Griselbrand (common in Sneak & Show and BR Reanimator), possibly with fringe Goblin slots being replaced by stock Merfolk slots. Obviously that deck would be awful. Whatever it means that 2018 Legacy's top cards pile is a plausible Delver deck, it's not a tautology given only that Delver is the most played deck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise

Agreed that it's not a tautology. If the four most played decks were 33% Goblins, 27% Merfolk, 20% Sneak & Show, and 20% BR Reanimator, the most played spells piled together would build a Vial Goblins deck that ran Force of Will (common in Merfolk and Sneak & Show) and Griselbrand (common in Sneak & Show and BR Reanimator), possibly with fringe Goblin slots being replaced by stock Merfolk slots. Obviously that deck would be awful. Whatever it means that 2018 Legacy's top cards pile is a plausible Delver deck, it's not a tautology given only that Delver is the most played deck.

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I got one. What if the meta were:
33% Goblins
27% S&T
20% Team America
20% Miracles

The most played cards are something like 67% FOW, BS, Ponder.

Obviously in that meta you are better off playing BS. 67% of all winning lists play it! If you don't play blue, you are handicapping yourself.
:rolleyes:

See what happens when you suck at math? See how math =/= just arithmetic?

Edit:
Switch that up so that Gobos are 27% and S&T is 33%. In this meta it is true that you are better off playing BS/FOW*, but only if you are playing them in one specific shell. The idea that other FoW/BS decks are worse that goblins is false; and the idea that rogue decks or brews with BS > rogue decks or brews w/o BS is pure conjecture.

*assuming top-8 penetration is proportional to conversion rates (which in practise it surely never is).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

I got one. What if the meta were:
33% Goblins
27% S&T
20% Team America
20% Miracles

The most played cards are something like 67% FOW, BS, Ponder.

Obviously in that meta you are better off playing BS. 67% of all winning lists play it! If you don't play blue, you are handicapping yourself.
:rolleyes:

See what happens when you suck at math? See how math =/= just arithmetic?

Edit:
Switch that up so that Gobos are 27% and S&T is 33%. In this meta it is true that you are better off playing BS/FOW*, but only if you are playing them in one specific shell. The idea that other FoW/BS decks are worse that goblins is false; and the idea that rogue decks or brews with BS > rogue decks or brews w/o BS is pure conjecture.

*assuming top-8 penetration is proportional to conversion rates (which in practise it surely never is).

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Let's not deal in hypothetical thought-experiments. These prove nothing and frankly a lot of people WOULD be happy if goblins stood a decent chance against 67% of the field.

The best deck as of now is Grixis Delver. The cards in Grixis Delver are individually powerful enough that they are among the most played in the format.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nielsie

You were the one throwing around expensive words like tautology, so I tried it for different years and different formats. 2012's most played cards couldn't just be scooped up into 1 pile and be called a deck, unless you wanted to play some weird shit with plows, goyfs, delvers, jaces and some random karakas... So, no, I am not convinced. 2018's most played cards just show how badly homogonized legacy has become.

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I think we are actually agreeing on this...but with just a different perspective. I'm not saying the format isn't homogenized (it is.) Grixis Delver and Czech Pile share a lot of the same cards, regardless of strategic difference. I guess the point I'm arguing is: so what? So the format is homogenized, this isn't breaking news. Hasn't it been said like a million times that 'there will always be a best deck, best cards, yadda yadda, because competitive format, etc.'. The deeper the format, the more homogenization you'll get (see: Vintage.)

I guess I just don't get all of the butthurt about certain cards seeing a higher % than other cards. This will always happen. An eternal format is always going to revolve around the most powerful and efficient cards ever printed. No amount of bannings will change this; all bannings do is change which ones become the highest %.

There will always be a best deck. There will always be cards that see more play than everything else.

Are people really that disatisfied with games of Legacy? I feel like we are in a sweet spot where games tend to be very interactive and enjoyable. I'd much rather have our current state of affairs than a rock-paper-scissors format, or a format with mostly linear decks where matchups are decided based on what you sideboarded for.

There are tons of unique decks and strategies that you can't find anywhere else but Legacy. Tons of decks and strategies are competitive and viable, despite not being flavor of the month. Even if it is much more difficult to do these day, there is still plenty of room for innovation and brewing.

Why are people so upset with the state of the format right now? Because blue is better than the other colors? Welcome to eternal formats.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I guess I just don't get all of the butthurt about certain cards seeing a higher % than other cards. This will always happen. An eternal format is always going to revolve around the most powerful and efficient cards ever printed. No amount of bannings will change this; all bannings do is change which ones become the highest %.

There will always be a best deck. There will always be cards that see more play than everything else.

Are people really that disatisfied with games of Legacy? I feel like we are in a sweet spot where games tend to be very interactive and enjoyable. I'd much rather have our current state of affairs than a rock-paper-scissors format, or a format with mostly linear decks where matchups are decided based on what you sideboarded for.

There are tons of unique decks and strategies that you can't find anywhere else but Legacy. Tons of decks and strategies are competitive and viable, despite not being flavor of the month. Even if it much more difficult to do these day, there is still plenty of room for innovation and brewing.

Why are people so upset with the state of the format right now? Because blue is better than the other colors? Welcome to eternal formats.

---

Thank you for this, even though it's been said many times before. I love the format, interaction, how games play out.

Seriously, will you be my friend?

Yes []
No []

The problem is that the format is the same 48-52 card shell, for over half of the matches you'll play. Interactive, yes. But you know how every single game is played out. And play it out the exact same way every round. Fun, sure. But eventually you get tired of the redundancy every single game, fighting against T1 DRS, opponent (or yourself) resolving Brainstorm/Ponder/Preordain several times a turn, discard into removal into countermagic into who can top deck and keep a Delver/Deathrite/True Name on the battlefield long enough to close out.

Then week after week of over half the matches playing out the same way, eventually you've seen everything that this solved format has to offer and you move on.

Coverage of Legacy events (SCG, GPs) get a ton of criticism for always showing a Deathrite Delver match/mirror, but that's just what Legacy is now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hanni

I guess I just don't get all of the butthurt about certain cards seeing a higher % than other cards. This will always happen. An eternal format is always going to revolve around the most powerful and efficient cards ever printed. No amount of bannings will change this; all bannings do is change which ones become the highest %.

There will always be a best deck. There will always be cards that see more play than everything else.

Are people really that disatisfied with games of Legacy? I feel like we are in a sweet spot where games tend to be very interactive and enjoyable. I'd much rather have our current state of affairs than a rock-paper-scissors format, or a format with mostly linear decks where matchups are decided based on what you sideboarded for.

There are tons of unique decks and strategies that you can't find anywhere else but Legacy. Tons of decks and strategies are competitive and viable, despite not being flavor of the month. Even if it is much more difficult to do these day, there is still plenty of room for innovation and brewing.

Why are people so upset with the state of the format right now? Because blue is better than the other colors? Welcome to eternal formats.

---

I also want to agree with all of this, and add: "I'd much rather have our current state of affairs than a rock-paper-scissors format, or a format with mostly linear decks where matchups are decided based on what you sideboarded for and variance."

Cantrips make it more likely that people get to play Magic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Claymore

The problem is that the format is the same 48-52 card shell, for over half of the matches you'll play. Interactive, yes. But you know how every single game is played out. And play it out the exact same way every round. Fun, sure. But eventually you get tired of the redundancy every single game, fighting against T1 DRS, opponent (or yourself) resolving Brainstorm/Ponder/Preordain several times a turn, discard into removal into countermagic into who can top deck and keep a Delver/Deathrite/True Name on the battlefield long enough to close out.

Then week after week of over half the matches playing out the same way, eventually you've seen everything that this solved format has to offer and you move on.

Coverage of Legacy events (SCG, GPs) get a ton of criticism for always showing a Deathrite Delver match/mirror, but that's just what Legacy is now.

---

I think this is overstated - plenty of people I play against aren't on Czech or Grixis. Sure, many of them are, but not certainly not over half. You never play against DNT/Lands/Storm/ANT/Miracles/Eldrazi/SNT/Elves/Maverick/Aluren/Food Chain? I would not be embarrassed to bring any of those decks to a Legacy event, and certainly you could too.

Also, I think the coverage issue is actually distinct from the diversity issue - whoever is providing coverage chooses what to show, so it's not always representative of the format in the way a random sampling would be. At some level, casters may choose to put more Delver mirrors up because that's what's popular; especially for WOTC, they may want to highlight the fair decks Legacy has to offer, because it might encourage people to buy in/watch that only usually play Modern or Standard, where creature battles rule the day. It's kinda like how they do the 5-0 league reports now - you only get to see the ones they choose to show.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Claymore

The problem is that the format is the same 48-52 card shell, for over half of the matches you'll play. Interactive, yes. But you know how every single game is played out. And play it out the exact same way every round. Fun, sure. But eventually you get tired of the redundancy every single game, fighting against T1 DRS, opponent (or yourself) resolving Brainstorm/Ponder/Preordain several times a turn, discard into removal into countermagic into who can top deck and keep a Delver/Deathrite/True Name on the battlefield long enough to close out.

Then week after week of over half the matches playing out the same way, eventually you've seen everything that this solved format has to offer and you move on.

Coverage of Legacy events (SCG, GPs) get a ton of criticism for always showing a Deathrite Delver match/mirror, but that's just what Legacy is now.

---

Legacy coverage =/= actual matchups that you are paired against.

I could go into detail with my previous matchups that I've personally experienced at large events over the last couple of years, but since I haven't played in one since October 2017, let's use the only tournament report that I see in the Tournament Reports section of the forum from GP Seattle 2018, from user Sparkii. His matchups were:

DNT
Turbo Depths
Miracles
Esper DNT
Aluren
Eldrazi
Junk-fit
Grixis Control
TES
Grixis Delver
Czech Pile
Moon Stompy
Soldier Stompy
Turbo Depths
Elves

That's not Grixis Delver and Czech Pile matchups every round.

Yes, this is a single example. This sample size is way too small to be an accurate representation of the diversity of matchups. However, my own personal experiences at larger events have been similar in the diversity of matchups I've had.

This whole "every game is a Grixis Delver or Czech Pile matchup" is superfluous and incorrect. Quit blowing things out of proportion. Those are two good decks, but they aren't the only decks you'll run into.

Pretending like every game plays out the same because most decks are playing cantrips and there is a good bit of card overlap between decks is wrong. Acting like every game is on autopilot when you have cantrips is also wrong. Most of the time, there are many different decision trees to make every single turn. Matches don't play out the same way every single time. If that was how it worked, we wouldn't keep seeing the same pros doing well time and again, and there wouldn't be players going 0-2 drop with those decks. Even with cantrips, there is still variance.

/end rant

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Are people really that disatisfied with games of Legacy?

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Yes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Why are people so upset with the state of the format right now? Because blue is better than the other colors? Welcome to eternal formats.

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Because it all feels the same and that's not fun. I mean I can show up with Stax and make others lives miserable, that's fun, so I do that. You will likely beat my deck because it's bad, but I am going to make sure you regret paying money to play against me. Because watching people grit their teeth in place of masturbating with cantrips is as close to fun as I can find in this shadow of what once was a great format.

Legacy has gone from a place where I could enjoy myself to a place I were I reminisce. It's also become a place that people go to the bathroom after the game and scream "Fuck!" really loudly. (It happens) Because no, Legacy is not fun, but it was and I miss that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Because it all feels the same and that's not fun. I mean I can show up with Stax and make others lives miserable, that's fun, so I do that. You will likely beat my deck because it's bad, but I am going to make sure you regret paying money to play against me. Because watching people grit their teeth in place of masturbating with cantrips is as close to fun as I can find

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100% this ^^

It's not a "deck" and it's not even a "color" for me, it's just Brainstorm; I was fine with treasure cruise and dig through time.
Would dig and cruise have been banned if Brainstorm was already banned? Two more victims sacrificed for the "pillar" of Legacy.

It's always brainstorm: it's no other card, it's no other deck, it's no specific color and it's no specific strategy.
#don't be a shill for brainstorm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Yes.


Because it all feels the same and that's not fun. I mean I can show up with Stax and make others lives miserable, that's fun, so I do that. You will likely beat my deck because it's bad, but I am going to make sure you regret paying money to play against me. Because watching people grit their teeth in place of masturbating with cantrips is as close to fun as I can find in this shadow of what once was a great format.

Legacy has gone from a place where I could enjoy myself to a place I were I reminisce. It's also become a place that people go to the bathroom after the game and scream "Fuck!" really loudly. (It happens) Because no, Legacy is not fun, but it was and I miss that.

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Except my friend Michael Coyle has done pretty well playing his Metalworker Stax deck, and made Top 32 at an SCG Open last year with it, so I don’t buy that argument. If you like playing Prison decks, guess what? They're still viable. Moon Stompy has been putting up Top 8 results lately, no?

If you think every matchup feels the same, it's probably because of your local meta. When was the last time you played at a large event where all of your matchups felt the same?

You've expressed that you are a Lands and Stax player, many times. What is it that you miss exactly? Stax is as viable now as it's always been in Legacy... it's not really gotten any better or worse in relation to everything else since I started playing Legacy in 2006. Last time I checked, Lands just made Top 8 at a GP and is one of the best decks in the format. What are you complaining about exactly?

What is so miserable now that wasn't miserable before? What timeframe is "before" to you? You're argument sounds like people are just now starting to play cantrips and you dislike playing against cantrips? News flash dude, cantrips have been a cornerstone of Legacy since it's inception. Solidarity and Threshold were two of the three major pillars of the format from 2005 and onward, and both played a bunch of cantrips. New and better decks have replaced those, obviously, but what has changed? 13 years later, people are still casting cantrips. Why is this all of a sudden a problem for you now? Why wasn't it a problem for you "back when"?

It mostly seems like people miss the old Merfolk, Zoo, Maverick, Goblins metagame. I'm not really sure why, but okay. And it's not like you can't play those decks these days. Goblins made Day 2 at the GP and Maverick made Top 8. Regardless, I personally like the current metagame better than the tons of creature pile matchups, but I digress. By the way, the reason those decks aren't as viable these days has more to do with how much faster and powerful the combo decks of the format have become than it does with the fair blew stew getting better tools. If you want to return to fair creature decks, you need to start banning cards like Show and Tell, Griselbrand/Emrakul, Thespian's Stage, and Tendrils of Agony... not Deathrite Shaman and True-Name Nemesis.

I miss Goblins. Lands is viable, I love it, it's totally pimped and it's my baby. Stax is not a viable deck. One top finish last year does not a viable deck make, nor was that my argument. Stax is fun, I don't play it to win I play with with Sadistic glee. Stax can stay bad for all I care, while it's making Delver players miserable I don't care that it's bad.

Last big event I play at was about two months ago. 70% of the room was some form of combo (Not normal) and I got smashed. Some someone sold me a snack pack at half price because he had to close early so that was a good day for me.

My issue with Legacy is that if I sit down from someone playing Delver, Grixis, 4c, SnT, ANT, Miracles, ect your game plan is the same. You win condition is not and people will argue nuance but I am past that, your all doing the same shit with the same goal. Play the same core cards that do the same core thing with the same core outcome.

Now sure, your going to say SnT and ANT aren't the same deck, argue nuance, but I'm talking about "Tap Island, fiddle myself until I find what I need, shuffle my library." They all do it, it's boring and I'm well past pretending to think anything will change.

These days I show up to play their game. If your going to masturate in public I'm happy to play the role of catholic dad and put a dampener on your fun.

Edit;
Just to point out something, in case anyone misunderstood. I'm not arguing for or against a ban here. My preference is officially untouchable. Regardless of any metric or argument I can make it doesn't matter. So right now, your asking questions and I am answering them. Explaining why I feel like I do. I have no intention of talking about what I want to change because that's no longer relevant, the die has been cast.

On the bright side, there was some closure given to the main topic and for that I am actually very thankful. Legacy is being looked after for those of us who play it with no wish to grow the format, sadly I dont know myself how much longer I will play it. My work roster has changed, I only do nights now and waking up 3 hours early to go and play something I am honestly not enjoying is a tough ask. Knowing nothing will change only quickens my already diminishing enjoyment in this format and at some point games locally will stop firing as the old guard moves away. The local population has already been split over store ownership changes, another stupid reality of this game.

I really honestly miss what we had. All I have ever done was to hold some part of that as it has slipped away like water in my fingertips. I miss the teenager who in 2004 was bitching about not owning Sharpshooter and was desperatly cracking packs to find one. That part of me, it's gone and since then I have watched the soul of Legacy go too.

No, I don't enjoy Legacy as much as I did and now going in takes more effort than ever. I have to travel 4 hours (2 each way) to play. I was willing to do that. I have put in real time and effort, I have really loved this, I have really cared for and about this. But now it's official, the worst part of this format is protected and I can't bring myself to care any more.

I have played once in the last month while watching on my discord more and more people say they will never finish Lands. (Tabernacle buy outs) So now the joy I had, talking to new players and walking them though what I have learnt over years of playing my deck is now a dying light of joy that has flickered out too.

There is nothing left in Legacy that is good. The format is mismanaged, the Reserves list is killing decks and the format is straining under the weight of those who see it as a stock market. And I say this all while owning a deck where the cheapest non foil card in it is Drop of Honey. It's not like I haven't invested myself into this.

I'm just sad, so when you ask are people really disatisfied I guess I just feel driven to answer. Because yes, I do, and that really hurts my soul.

Well, Dice_Box, I can't argue with any of that. It sounds like you've burned yourself out of Magic in general, and I'm not really sure that there is a solution for that other than quitting for an extended period of time.

Really though, this is something that happens in life. Things that we once were passionate about start becoming dull over time. I've increasingly felt this way about video games. VR reignited my passion for a while, but the quality of current VR games has me back to a waning interest in video games again.

At any rate, hopefully you can find something new to be passionate about... because not having anything that excites oneself makes life extremely boring and miserable.

Sorry for getting this thread way off topic.

#bandeathriteshaman

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

I got one. What if the meta were:
33% Goblins
27% S&T
20% Team America
20% Miracles

The most played cards are something like 67% FOW, BS, Ponder.

Obviously in that meta you are better off playing BS. 67% of all winning lists play it! If you don't play blue, you are handicapping yourself.
:rolleyes:

See what happens when you suck at math? See how math =/= just arithmetic?

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It seems like you are reading into my post things that I did not say. All I said is that it's not tautological that:

[Top N most played spells in their average 1--4 quantities] = [The N spells in the 1--4 quantities that appear in the most played deck].

For this to be true about any given format is not guaranteed. Someone said it was, so I gave a counterexample. I did not say whether it's good or bad, and I didn't commit the fallacy that you correctly debunked previously (about whether you should play Brainstorm) and are now debunking with more attitude while quoting me.

@Dicebox Yes the reserved list is trash but don't conflate that with everything else
"The format is mismanaged" "The worst part of this format is protected" are not objective statements
I agree with Hanni that it sounds like you're just burned out / bored

"Legacy is being looked after for those of us who play it with no wish to grow the format"
If this is referring to the RL then I obviously agree but if you're talking about BR announcements it seems like a pretty big leap of faith to believe that banning BS/DRS would cause a significant influx of players

No wish to grow was about the tweet that they manage Legacy and Vintage for the players that play it.

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Very true, but at this point, Vintage and Legacy are managed ~100% for the people that do play it.

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Aaron Forsythe.


As for objective statements, haha ha... I was never claiming to be objective, I was answering a question on if anyone was dissatisfied. At no point was I seeking to claim objectivity. Read the whole post. Haha.

The only correct answer is to ban everything until Astral Slide is viable again. But since that ain't happening the format is just basically fucked forever.

/troll

(but yeah, why the fuck is there not a format where Slide is legal and playable? Seriously, put it in Modern already wotc)

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Originally Posted by morgan_coke

(but yeah, why the fuck is there not a format where Slide is legal and playable? Seriously, put it in Modern already wotc)

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There is, have a look: http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=642&meta=124&f=PEA

I agree with much of what Dice said. Many people in our area are burned out on it and only come to hang out with others, half of us don't even like legacy right now. I just continue playing despite knowing that the format is too far gone

Dice_Box, don’t lose track of your magic buddies as you fade from tournament play. There are others who feel as you do. But I just don’t think what drew you to this game will ever go away, and nothing else is good enough to permanently keep you from it.

I’m almost entirely out of competitive play, but my core group of about six players all still brew. We get together a few times a month for Legacy and commander, and we have a mini meta with all the features of a real scene. Magic nirvana. There are others. If you ever find yourself in south Florida, gimme a shout. We will deal you in for the night.

Thank the gods all I want to do is Storm. Apparently we're officially green-lit for the forseeable future, whatever that's worth....

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

Thank the gods all I want to do is Storm. Apparently we're officially green-lit for the forseeable future, whatever that's worth....

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Sort of...until ridiculously overpowered hatebear #37 finally puts the nail in the coffin.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I guess I just don't get all of the butthurt about certain cards seeing a higher % than other cards. This will always happen. An eternal format is always going to revolve around the most powerful and efficient cards ever printed. No amount of bannings will change this; all bannings do is change which ones become the highest %.

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But where do you draw the line in that case? Why even have a ban list in that case? If you get your toys, I want to get mine too, give me workshop and you keep on casting brainstorms for 3. Don't worry, I am sure the format will adapt...

I fully agree with and feel like Dice. Legacy became boring and utterly stale, at least for people that thought Legacy wasn't Brainstorm-the-format. I was one of those people thinking Legacy was about playing different engines from all over Magic's history: goblins, elves, fish, loam, rituals, bob, metalworker, affinity, mana denial, dredge and sure cantrips and a lot of other stuff. The problem these days is that cantrips are simply the only viable thing to do, maybe together with loaming. Isn't it insane that even something like Bob is outclassed these days? But that's on me, I thought this format had more to offer than just dicking around with cantrips.

To be honest, I don't even know if a Brainstorm ban would actually save legacy. Incredibly stupid stuff like TNN and Leo is also too damaging for a more varied and open playing field. I played Goblins up until the point TNN got released. People thought that hiding behind DRS or Stoneforge would save them but if you knew your deck and match-ups well, you could take a tournament with Goblins. TNN changed this, not only does it stonewall Goblins and utterly destroys them with equipement, the most damaging thing TNN did was making people put crap like Golgari Charm and friends in their sideboards which happen to be pretty good against a random bunch of 1/1's...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nielsie

But where do you draw the line in that case? Why even have a ban list in that case? If you get your toys, I want to get mine too, give me workshop and you keep on casting brainstorms for 3. Don't worry, I am sure the format will adapt...

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So much this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

No wish to grow was about the tweet that they manage Legacy and Vintage for the players that play it.

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The way I interpret this (and I assume you agree with this interpretation) is that they aren't banning Brainstorm, because 'managing legacy for the players that play it' means 'appealing to the people who already like legacy' meaning 'the people who like Brainstorm'.

I will quote you again:

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"Legacy is being looked after for those of us who play it with no wish to grow the format"

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If "no wish to grow the format" means "won't ban Brainstorm", how does banning Brainstorm grow the format?

- Nobody who can't afford to buy in currently will suddenly be able to with that change
- Eventually people will figure out the best deck again and everybody will go back to square 1 of complaining. Even if you achieve this holy mecca of 'all random strategies are viable' people will just go and play modern instead because it already is that, and it's cheaper
- People who like Brainstorm could/will leave

With e.g. the Shops discussion you can point to the fact that it warps the format in a way that emphasizes the matchup and lessens the impact of gameplay decisions:
- Shops is the default best deck
- Stock blue deck is probably unfavoured vs Shops
- You can tune your blue deck to be more favoured to beat shops e.g. by replacing cards like Mental Misstep
- The more adjustments like this you make to your blue deck the worse it becomes in the blue mirrors
- A significant (unhealthy) aspect of the metagame becomes 'I prepared to face X deck but I only played against Y'

You could make the same arguments about Chalice decks in legacy, and I would, except the effect isn't as pronounced because those decks aren't as good as vintage Shops

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

If "no wish to grow the format" means "won't ban Brainstorm", how does banning Brainstorm grow the format?

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I believe that to grow the format Wiz has to make more diverisification in deckbuilding and deck strategies.
To cut the conversation, a good way to grow is to make aggro viable again
To do this they have to:
- Print good creature (good rapport cc strenght, and good ability) not blue.
- Slow down of at least 1 turn the efficiency of control\tempo strategies (to permit creature to swing and to play creature with cc > 2)

First Option: Print good creatures

Th last good creatures printed to sprint the race are ..... DELVER and TNN that are Blue. This is pretty stupid, because good creature should be green, or red, not blue. Was a big error. Like printing a green cantrip or counterspell, better than blue existing ones.

Also Wiz printed Eldrazi, that is another pretty stupid move, because You could do the same with existing colors. But at least You have an aggro deck (very unconistant).

The problem is: if WIZ print cheap cc creature they will fit in blue shell deck, generating another aggro\blue deck, that is not what the meta need to grow. The meta needs aggro deck. Player loves aggro deck.




ABout the second option Slow down of at least 1 turn the efficiency of control\tempo strategies
I think that banning brainstorm is a good way to keep control deck a little out of card selection. Nowadays control deck can choose with a lot of cantrips what to draw. The old keeper in T1 draws a lot to control, and was full of tutors to chose the solution. Now the same in legacy, the card selection permitted by ponder\brainstorm\azcanta\Jace\preordain is too much. Infact sometimes also UGx deck does not play Sylvan Library, that was an house for card selection for years (and a good reason to play green) now is no more efficient.

At the same time banning Brainstorm slow down combo decks, for te same reason of card selection.

This is why i think that banning brainstorm is good for legacy -> slow down the format and permit aggro deck to exist.

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Originally Posted by Zulabnar

I think that banning brainstorm is a good way to keep control deck a little out of card selection. Nowadays control deck can choose with a lot of cantrips what to draw.

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How do you keep decks "out of card selection" if they simply play Preordain+Ponder+Probe? How is that card selection less superior to anything other colors can provide in terms of card selection?

Most of the meta these days is keen on dropping DRS T1 or T2 after double cantripping anyways. How does replacing Brainstorm with Preordain change that? All you do is bringing various clunky combo decks down a tier with next to zero effect on the already dominating decks in the format.