[Deck] Death and Taxes

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by colo

Harm's Way was in my sideboard for a couple of events, but I never got to use it properly. Also, it would be _so much better_ if the redirection mechanism didn't target and could take out TNN :/

---

The upside of Harm's Way is that it is a two-for-one. I see people putting extra removal in their sideboard against delver, but the reason we lose to delver (post side) is not that we get outtempo'd, it's that we get outvalued. They board in value spells like Marsh Casualties, Kolaghan's Command, Cabal Therapy, Baleful Strix, Liliana, Ancient Grudge, also answers to our best value plays against them (stoneforge, mother, recruiter mainly). Post side, we can get some value out of rest in peace, but their deck is just not that grave-dependent to make rest in peace as devastating against them as their sideboard cards are against us.

Orzhov Pontiff is a nice example. It takes care of a pyromancer and whatever amount of elementals he assembled, as well as true-name, lavamancer and unflipped delvers (with or without a wisp's aid). This makes it very unlikely he won't kill at least one threat when he resolves, and likely more. These threats include the two most impervious to our traditional removal suite, pyro and true-name.

Quote:

---

Heliod, God of the Sun feels like a worse variant of Gideon, Ally of Zendikar that dodges the Thalia tax - I'm not convinced. However, I've been eyeing Thassa, God of the Sea for the U splash variant in the past.

---

He dodges removal better than Gideon and has synergy with vial and cavern, but he's extremely mana hungry and still dies to Council's Judgment - the main planeswalker removal spell anyway.

Quote:

---

Spirit Bonds, otoh, is a card I did not know existed until now. Looks cute (maybe a little too cute, but I'm very open to put this to the test), but the abilities sure make sense in a deck like ours. Question is if its a better 2-mana enchantment than Honor of the Pure for us, as that's pretty much "confirmed playable".

---

Spirit Bonds actively generates value, whereas Honor of the Pure does not. On the other hand, Honor does screw with some removal spell math, so there is some virtual value there that should not be discounted. Spirit Bonds is better if you expect mostly spot removal, but other decks tend to side in more sweepers against us. Honor is more likely to screw with those, while Spirit Bonds is still rather susceptible to -1/-1 hate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DarthVicious

Spirit Bonds... also seems interesting. But... it's a massive mana sink in a deck that already has tons of mana sinks between Ports, Stoneforge & equips, and anything else you might be running. (Displacers in my list. He's a beast.)

---

What I dislike about Displacer in D&T is that it's so mana hungry, while not very removal resistant. It's different if you have multiples and can ramp it out backed by chalice like an eldrazi deck can.

Spirit Bonds is a card that shows up when you're looking for a good mana sink against 'fair' value decks that have multiple strong ways to deal with artifacts. Gideon is a similar card in that regard, but as a planeswalker more vulnerable than an enchantment.

We have have discussed this long ago, but... are there any R non-creature spells worth running in Wr, since we now have 7-8 sources of R? I mean, something so good that the risk is worth it, since we did do Sudden Demise in Bahra's initial variation (and to no small degree, the sideboard reason to run R)?

For example, I have run Wear/Tear in other formats. Abrade is value-laden. Demise still doesn't suck. But what else are we missing out on? (The answer could be "Nothing".)

Shalai is baller. I highly encourage people to start testing it. Here's a starting point for WW.

1 Batterskull
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Wasteland
2 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
7 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vryn Wingmare
4 Rishadan Port
6 Plains
4 Mother of Runes
3 Karakas
4 Flickerwisp
4 Aether Vial
Sideboard
2 Cataclysm
1 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Council's Judgment
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Holy Light
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Path to Exile

Watching the coverage of GP Seattle and the D&T-decks in feature matches, I was struck by how often they lost. Did any D&T-players win a single feature match? It tended to go like this: Play Mother of Runes, Thalia, more creatures with 1 toughness and then - BOOM - Marsh Casualties. The game was gone. This mirrors my experiences in my local meta. Everyone is packing Marsh Casualties / Golgari Charm / Liliana, Last Hope to fight against Grixis Delver. Everyone wants to kill True-Name Nemesis and clear the board of a million Young Pyromancer-tokens. And Grixis Delver is obviously also packing these effects to fight the mirror. I started brewing a little bit today with that in mind. I'm not an authority on the deck like Thraben University (thank you for all the great content), so I'm just brainstorming a bit here (pun not intended). I've been looking at Benalish Marshal.

https://i.imgur.com/CJTz2Bv.jpg

It's effect can negate Marsh Casualties (unkicked) and Dread of Night, as well as prevent Liliana, Last Hope from sniping your creatures. But the problem is the casting cost. That got me thinking: Is Rishadan Port a holy cow? What if we cut Rishadan Port? And what if we play more flyers that can ignore TNN and also provide some additional utility, like Judge's Familiar? Something that always annoys me when playing D&T, is that I don't always have attacks. Mother of Runes almost never attacks. Phyrexian Revoker can be killed by a single Elemental-token. Stoneforge Mystic is very slow. But Serra Avenger is good. Anyway, a Crusade-effect will make flyers even better, I think.

It's true, we kind of build a house of cards apparatus and can lose when it falls apart.

But thoughts on the marshall and removing ports. WWW is very rough on the mana. Sometimes you'll have a vial and it will be fine, but other times you won't and it will be stranded in your hand. Removing ports takes you further away from a control deck and more into the territory of white weenie which can certainly win some games, but in general is easier for legacy to deal with unless you're doing something more powerful than giving your creatures +1/+1 in return.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bosque

It's true, we kind of build a house of cards apparatus and can lose when it falls apart.

But thoughts on the marshall and removing ports. WWW is very rough on the mana. Sometimes you'll have a vial and it will be fine, but other times you won't and it will be stranded in your hand. Removing ports takes you further away from a control deck and more into the territory of white weenie which can certainly win some games, but in general is easier for legacy to deal with unless you're doing something more powerful than giving your creatures +1/+1 in return.

---

That's a good point. I'm still not sure if losing part of the mana taxing is worth it IF we can prevent some of the sideboard cards that are bombs against us. I love Serra Avenger because she is a flier and survives -1/-1 effects (she even survives Massacre and a kicked Marsh Casualties). I also wanted more flyers. Judge's Familiar is a flyer that can also function as (mild) disruption against combo. Heck, it's cool to just snipe a brainstorm sometimes, even against a fair deck. I've seen quite a few D&T-decks not play Sanctum Prelate, but for me the card is so powerful against Grixis Delver that I simply can't NOT play it. Also excellent against Lands and Storm. I wish D&T had one more powerful two drop. I've been looking at options and I'm not sure I can find any. This is a decklist that I'm going to try in my local meta as soon as I get my hands on Benalish Marshal.

Lands (23)

2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
14 Plains
4 Wasteland

Creatures (27)

4 Mother of Runes
4 Judge’s Familiar
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
2 Recruiter of the Guard
3 Flickerwisp
1 Sanctum Prelate
3 Benalish Marshal

Noncreatures (10)

2 Umezawa’s Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vicar in a tutu

Watching the coverage of GP Seattle and the D&T-decks in feature matches, I was struck by how often they lost. Did any D&T-players win a single feature match? It tended to go like this: Play Mother of Runes, Thalia, more creatures with 1 toughness and then - BOOM - Marsh Casualties. The game was gone. This mirrors my experiences in my local meta. Everyone is packing Marsh Casualties / Golgari Charm / Liliana, Last Hope to fight against Grixis Delver. Everyone wants to kill True-Name Nemesis and clear the board of a million Young Pyromancer-tokens. And Grixis Delver is obviously also packing these effects to fight the mirror. I started brewing a little bit today with that in mind. I'm not an authority on the deck like Thraben University (thank you for all the great content), so I'm just brainstorming a bit here (pun not intended). I've been looking at Benalish Marshal.

https://i.imgur.com/CJTz2Bv.jpg

It's effect can negate Marsh Casualties (unkicked) and Dread of Night, as well as prevent Liliana, Last Hope from sniping your creatures. But the problem is the casting cost. That got me thinking: Is Rishadan Port a holy cow? What if we cut Rishadan Port? And what if we play more flyers that can ignore TNN and also provide some additional utility, like Judge's Familiar? Something that always annoys me when playing D&T, is that I don't always have attacks. Mother of Runes almost never attacks. Phyrexian Revoker can be killed by a single Elemental-token. Stoneforge Mystic is very slow. But Serra Avenger is good. Anyway, a Crusade-effect will make flyers even better, I think.

---

If you're interested in this idea, check out some of my recent videos and my article on experimenting with other cards in D&T like Honor of the Pure and Hallowed Spiritkeeper. You mind find some of what I was doing useful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Medea_

If you're interested in this idea, check out some of my recent videos and my article on experimenting with other cards in D&T like Honor of the Pure and Hallowed Spiritkeeper. You mind find some of what I was doing useful.

---

Thank you, I will :)

I've not actually tried it yet, but the more I think about Stalking Leonin, the more I like it. 3/3 for 3 is a decent body that can go toe to toe with a lot of stuff in the format, its casting cost is rather easy on the mana, and you can cause some seriously rad 2-for-1s with a Vial on 3. If it were recruitable, it'd be an auto-include I think - but I'll still try it as a 2-of, I guess.

Edit: It could be absolutely hilarious with Restoration Angel :laugh:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by colo

I've not actually tried it yet, but the more I think about Stalking Leonin, the more I like it. 3/3 for 3 is a decent body that can go toe to toe with a lot of stuff in the format, its casting cost is rather easy on the mana, and you can cause some seriously rad 2-for-1s with a Vial on 3. If it were recruitable, it'd be an auto-include I think - but I'll still try it as a 2-of, I guess.

Edit: It could be absolutely hilarious with Restoration Angel :laugh:

---

That's why I have Displacers in my list ;)
I actually stopped an attack from RUG Delver (two Geese and two Goyf) with two Leonin and one Crusader. Goyfs were 3/4, Geese were 3/3 and I only lost one Leonin. Killed all four.
Most of the time, he stops people from attacking with anything but True-Derp (most decks are significantly lighter on threats than we are). Except that Dinosaur flavored Sneak Attack deck I saw, he had a hexproof dino and Gishath for attack triggers. I nicknamed it Jurassic Park, it looked fun.

On another note, I'm curious how a list with 2-3 Jitte, 2-3 Benalish Marshal, and 2-3 Honor of the Pure would do, sans Stoneforge.

Also, the amount of things Zhalfirin Crusader is capable of is very interesting.
With 0 mana up - Attacks fearlessly into TNN, Strix, DRS, Mom, SFM, Pyromancer, any number of X/1 tokens, any Elf, trades with Leovold and threshed Goose, among other things.
With 2 mana up - Immune to KCommand, SoF&I triggers, PFire, kills 3/3's and survives, can also kill 3/4 Goyfs and survive.
With 4 mana up - Immune to Bolts, kills 4/5 Goyfs and survives, trades with 5/5's like Angler or Tombstalker, can also redirect relevant damage to opponent's dome, or machine-gun down opposing 1 or 2 toughness critters.
His only weakness I see is black/white removal, and very large opposing creatures (the likes of Sneak & Show, Reanimator, etc). It is worth noting his flanking only works on the attack, while activating him works at instant speed. I imagine attacking into a 4/5 Goyf with this guy, activating him twice to kill their Deathrite, and having him survive the Goyf block could become commonplace. Or... he goes unblocked more often than not and gets in for enough damage. Also worth noting that he is a Human Knight for those running Caverns, and is recruitable so likely only needs to be a one-of.

Hi everyone,

If you're interested in a video about the sideboard and the approach in the mirror match, I posted the latest episode of my show in the Format and Article Discussion section.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...irror-Strategy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DarthVicious

That's why I have Displacers in my list ;)
I actually stopped an attack from RUG Delver (two Geese and two Goyf) with two Leonin and one Crusader. Goyfs were 3/4, Geese were 3/3 and I only lost one Leonin. Killed all four.
Most of the time, he stops people from attacking with anything but True-Derp (most decks are significantly lighter on threats than we are). Except that Dinosaur flavored Sneak Attack deck I saw, he had a hexproof dino and Gishath for attack triggers. I nicknamed it Jurassic Park, it looked fun.

On another note, I'm curious how a list with 2-3 Jitte, 2-3 Benalish Marshal, and 2-3 Honor of the Pure would do, sans Stoneforge.

Also, the amount of things Zhalfirin Crusader is capable of is very interesting.
With 0 mana up - Attacks fearlessly into TNN, Strix, DRS, Mom, SFM, Pyromancer, any number of X/1 tokens, any Elf, trades with Leovold and threshed Goose, among other things.
With 2 mana up - Immune to KCommand, SoF&I triggers, PFire, kills 3/3's and survives, can also kill 3/4 Goyfs and survive.
With 4 mana up - Immune to Bolts, kills 4/5 Goyfs and survives, trades with 5/5's like Angler or Tombstalker, can also redirect relevant damage to opponent's dome, or machine-gun down opposing 1 or 2 toughness critters.
His only weakness I see is black/white removal, and very large opposing creatures (the likes of Sneak & Show, Reanimator, etc). It is worth noting his flanking only works on the attack, while activating him works at instant speed. I imagine attacking into a 4/5 Goyf with this guy, activating him twice to kill their Deathrite, and having him survive the Goyf block could become commonplace. Or... he goes unblocked more often than not and gets in for enough damage. Also worth noting that he is a Human Knight for those running Caverns, and is recruitable so likely only needs to be a one-of.

---

I used to love this card. Realistically however, the mana cost of its ability is far too intensive for what it does. The idea of using Flanking as a form of evasion against Strix, TNN, Pyromancer, and Elementals is definitely interesting though. I ran a search for appropriately costed creatures, but sadly they don't seem to get more efficient than 2-mana 2/2s. I'd be honestly surprised if Knight of the Holy Nimbus starts stealing games from Czech Pile and Delver, but stranger things have happened.

I've been running Knight of the Holy Nimbus for a few months already, and it is really strong in the matchups where you expect it to be (and it also pretty much dominates Burn, which might not be what you'd expect :)).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by colo

I've been running Knight of the Holy Nimbus for a few months already, and it is really strong in the matchups where you expect it to be (and it also pretty much dominates Burn, which might not be what you'd expect :)).

---

He's obviously the other one I considered testing, those are the two best options for flankers we have available in W. Here's hoping they bring it back at some point now that we've gone back to Dominaria. Here's hoping they create something like a Thalia, Nimbus Crusader.

In reference to the comments about GP Seattle, I can't remember a specific match or anything since it's been a while since I watched them, but I recall thinking multiple times that the DnT players were overextending their board presence and we're setting themselves up for trouble.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Does the D&T community ever get discouraged with the Czech Pile matchup? I will have to say, I have been playing that matchup (on the Czech Pile side) and I feel unbeatable against D&T. It doesn't matter if its a 4 crusader build or what.....I don't think i can lose that matchup. Any thoughts D&T community to do something about one of the most popular decks in the format?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by _WD40_

Does the D&T community ever get discouraged with the Czech Pile matchup? I will have to say, I have been playing that matchup (on the Czech Pile side) and I feel unbeatable against D&T. It doesn't matter if its a 4 crusader build or what.....I don't think i can lose that matchup. Any thoughts D&T community to do something about one of the most popular decks in the format?

---

It’s about a 50/50 matchup at equal skill levels. There are just a great many poor DnT players due to its accessibility, particularly on magic online.

I think that is wishful thinking. Current builds of Pile (and Grixis Delver) just have too many good cards against DnT. I don't think DnT is a tier 1 deck until they ban Deathrite.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iatee

I think that is wishful thinking. Current builds of Pile (and Grixis Delver) just have too many good cards against DnT. I don't think DnT is a tier 1 deck until they ban Deathrite.

---

That’s my results not theory. If you’re struggling with the matchup, try cutting down on cute/fun cards and try running a more streamlined build. Cataclysm is a humongous game changer as well. The more red I cut from the deck, the better the matchup got.

WW D&T vs Grixis Delver- 17-3
WW D&T vs Czech Pile- 7-5

RW D&T vs Grixis Delver 19-16
RW D&T vs Czech Pile- 16-6

I've been saying this for quite some time, but the issue is that it's hard to find a build that pounds on both Grixis Delver and Czech Pile. Beating either one of those decks is cake, but by hedging to beat one, you tend to push the matchup percentage against the other too close to 50%.