"Keep SDT so Painter can be a deck"? Jup, we had thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds
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"Keep SDT so Painter can be a deck"? Jup, we had thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds
@Lemnear & Lord_Mcdonalds:
Let's see, I still think there may be something worth discussing here. But I also know that I can get very tunnel visioned by my own arguments.
If someone else have argued for the same action using other arguments, that is not really relevant for this argument. If someone provided this very argument that I did above before, I'm sorry about that, I missed it. Who was this and approximately when? [edit: I guess this is asking for too much, but just in case you would remember.. Also I wanted you to just think back for a second, to see if that was actually the case.]
So, to repeat the argument that was so summarily dismissed, I'm arguing that Deathrite is not a strong enough card to warrant a ban, and the argument presented is that the deck that can a) most consistently put the card into play, that can b) get the most use out of its effect and that can actually c) protect it best while in play too, is nowhere even close to meriting a ban of anything. This would illustrate that the problem lies elsewhere. Now all of my arguments can be discussed, it's not a black or white thing. And maybe the conclusion I want to draw is false.
We have seen this argument more than once in the last 5 years, thus our reaction. I remember it being used for Survival and SDT, two cards which put the format in a wretch and the arguments made to keep these cards around despite their obvious dominance was, that they get used also in some fringe or outright Tier 3 decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by pettdan
At the time of Survival it was irrelevant for some people that the UG or GW versions dominated the top seats, but it was all about arguing that removing Survival would also remove RG Survival Advantage (aka Anger+Squee+FlametongueKavu) and Teen Titans (GoblinWelder+SunderingTitan) from being fringe decks. The same happened with SDT, when people tried distracting the community from the house Miracles was, but moaned the potential loss Painter and 12-Post would suffer from a SDT ban.
In terms of DRS and Maverick, the argument is even more ill-fitting as Maverick does just fine with Noble Hierarch as manadork and is not reliant on DRS. It's still distracting the discussion on DRS from the grixis/4c decks which make up ~21% if the meta.
DRS totally warrants a ban by sheer metagame number, performance in relation to it's presence, it singlehandily neutering strategies preying on the 3-/4-color goodstuff decks (aka the classic counters to greedy manabases), narrowing the number of viable alternatives and forcing it way into more and more decks (ANT with DRS is reality).Quote:
Originally Posted by pettdan
Right now you play a green deck for Exploration/Loam/Crop Rotation, or for Glimpse/GSZ/NO. Simply wanting "good creatures" is not a reason to run a green centric deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zulabnar
Source on that? Seaching for decks that run LED & DRS I get these two hits:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15367&d=293458&f=LE
https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14573&d=287393&f=LE
A couple weird builds that made top8 in small events.
I have an idea: The Island Restricted List for Legacy, which could start with these cards on it:
- DRS
- Top
The rule of this list: you can't play these cards in your deck if your deck contains lands with an Island subtype.
Format solved... :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
/sarcasm
Oh I love me some Maverick players... "I have created this board state to make sure my opponent cannot interact with me with neither removal nor sweepers. It is so unfair that there exist a spell which still lets my opponent interact. Only I should be able to do uninteractivr stuff"Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
The hipocracy...
Kozilek's Return, sacrifice effects, toxic deluge, deed. Show and tell to just ignore them.
I'm sure there's a bunch more but those were the first to come to mind.
:)
Karakas too (edit)
MTGO is a crazy place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
I ask the same question to Lemnear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
1 DRS in Spanish Inquisition is an established way for Summoner's Pact -> Chrome Mox imprint, while being 1 cc as Culling the Weak fodder. They used to play Odious Trow before DRS.
It sounds absurd if one extrapolates this to DRS needed in Storm.
I actually like this idea, although banning Brainstorm would achieve the same in a much more elegant way. But of course we are not allowed to discuss Brainstorm banning, while the blue mages want a B/G card getting the axe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielsie
So do your part and shut down this site, then!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
You know what? I lived in freakin' nowhere in the late 90s. But as soon as I got over the initial "OMG CRAW WURM", my first tournament deck was Erhnamgeddon. My local shop got the Black Summer right on time. We learned how to Impulse like a pro! We got the Combo Winter, too, and some of us embraced it and some of us fought it (I lost in top 8 of States that year, playing Suicide Black in a sea of combo).
People figured out what was good and posted about it on the internet, and we read about it on the internet. We went to PTQs and played with and against decks we'd read about and tested... from the internet. We went to States and Regionals and played with and against decks we'd read about and tested... from the internet. First it was rec.games.trading-cards, then it was the Dojo. We didn't need the Duelist to tell us what was good, and we didn't listen to InQuest (we read it for the funny comics).
This has always been a part of the game. It has always homogenized the competitive metagame. What has changed in recent years is Wizards of the Coast deciding that all the anti-"netdecking" people were right, and trying to hide as much data as possible from the internet in order to keep things from getting "solved too quickly". And what's changed in Legacy is, as I said, people treating it like a competitive format and doing what every other competitive format already went through years and years ago.
The genie can't go back in the bottle. It's been out for decades now. When Wizards prints busted stuff, the relevant formats homogenize super fast, and have done so for as long as I've been playing.
Now. Want a better Legacy format? Ban Deathrite Shaman. Take a long hard look at the delve critters and Gitaxian Probe. Unban some stuff. Mind Twist, yes. Mana Drain, probably (dig back in the thread where I explained why it could be a good thing for the format). One of the currently-banned combo engines. Earthcraft is a perennial favorite, but I keep looking at some of the supposedly really busted stuff and thinking it's probably safe nowadays with the way people understand the format better, so heck, I'd unban Hermit Druid, too, and maybe even Bargain.
But the endless "ban blue cards until Kird Ape is good again" stuff I see over and over in this thread, and the endless "go back in time 20 years and forbid posting decklists on the internet" stuff you're on about, those aren't useful.
Really... The whole deck is Play uncounterable creatures (for free), waste you, port you on upkeep, make everything cost more, and lock you out with a 2/1 needle.Quote:
Originally Posted by MorphBerlin
I didn't say it's "needed". I know that someone plays them in ANT on MTGO in place of Lotus Petals.Quote:
Originally Posted by tsabo_tavoc
It's a mere anecdote of how people try to fit the card into anything. The last time I saw similar was with the SFM package
And remember when people were trying to put Tarmogoyf in Merfolk?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
You understand that my comment was that it is more common now than it was and my comment was never that it was not used right? Like, nothing you are saying, at all, is in any way impacting that. I never claimed the net was not used, your reading that into my post. I said that the net was not as popular.Quote:
Originally Posted by ubernostrum
And slightly off topic, but for me personally I did not really have a lot of access to the net until high school. Even then you needed to get a computer pass, then pay the school to use it. Like 2 dollars for some amount of time from memory. I was playing then but that does not mean I had access to the internet as you did. I did not have the ability to buy cards that people at my local store did not have. That was just me. That was in early 2000s. Shit has changed since then, talking about 09, here in Australia the iPhone 3G was new, the internet speeds where so low most people where not online much and data caps meant you did not have a lot of access to the net for long at any one time. I was in my 20s then too so its not like I did not have the ability to try, there was just not the point. As the iPhone gained traction, then Android the access to the net really shot up, because now the barrier to entry was so much lower. Things started to really take off.
So I would repeat myself.
The reasons I say this are many, but at its most basic smartphones gained ground, the infrastructure was upgraded, the sites dedicated to this issue became more streamlined and easy to access as well as understand. (Goldfish is great for that). I never ever ever said that the net was not part of the game, I said it was not a popular in 09 as it is now. I stand by that and have honestly no idea what your trying to gain by arguing against what is a reasonable point to make.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
That's the exact point he is making. He even put " " to showcase the hypocrisyQuote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
Yes, I know. I was agreeing with OP
Maverick plays port, vial, and revoker? Was I playing a bad version of the deck for 3 years?
Well yes, I'd be willing to say any version of that deck has been bad since 2012.
I was thinking the same...Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk
Lol the deck knowledge in this thread is through the roof. A lot of discussions start to make sense to me now that DnT and Maverick are apparently the same deck haha.
On another note, something that really bothers me. Stop calling DnT or Goblins aggro decks, they aren't, they are creature-control decks.
Yeah, it's pretty outrageous how people consider different decks to be the same deck on the bases of a handful of shared cards. But at least these decks actually have a similar lar play-styles. Unlike the blue decks that constantly suffer this kind of superficial analysis. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielsie
I suspect that poster just got mixed-up though.
Totally agree. I think we see so little in pure aggro (or hard control) that people have started to call aggro/control hybrids either aggro or control now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielsie
For the record I think Goblins used to be a lot more aggressive, but gravitated more towards midrange (red D&T) in it's dying days (running Ports and splashing for Thalia).
The same people that say having 4 brainstorm 4 ponder 4 fow in your deck makes all the "blue stew" decks the same seem to get quite salty when you suggest that their Mom / Thalia / SFM / STP / Wasteland deck is completely different than the other Mom / Thalia / SFM / STP / Wasteland deck.
I know the difference between D&T and D&T + Green splash. The point I made was still valid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QM2zcv5AfaMQuote:
Originally Posted by H
I member.
After all if you are annoyed by the current meta, just watch some pre ban Coverage with sdt legal. It is eye opening how broken that shit truly was and how absurdly strong miracles had been. I have my concerns with the current Situation as well but As i recall where we came from suddenly the ease kicks in.
Ps: Do yourself a favor and truly watch some topsturbation. With the Stockholm syndrome things can get messed up when looking at them in retrospect.
I'd rather watch someone who is a master at Miracles dismantle their opponent over the course of 40 minutes than someone who literally just picked up Grixis Delver a month ago lucksack their way into a win because DRS is busted.Quote:
Originally Posted by janchu88
Apparently DRS is lucksack but the miracle mechanic and counterbalance are not ???Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
Both of these as well as most decks have brain dead plays, but that doesn't mean they can't be hard to play at times and reward good pilots.
The number of times I've been hellbent with Grixis with no meaningful permanents except DRS and won the game >>> the number of times I've been hellbent with Miracles with no meaningful permanents except Top or CB and won the gameQuote:
Originally Posted by Rascalyote
Miracles was/is powerful because every card in the deck worked with each other to form an incredibly synergistic pile of 60 cards. Grixis Delver is powerful because every card in the deck is strong on its own, regardless of what effects the other cards in the deck have. So it stands to reason that any top deck in Grixis Delver will have a higher likelihood of being a stronger card than any top deck in Miracles. Therefore, it's much more likely for one to lucksack out of an unfavorable position with Grixis than with Miracles. That's why Miracles had a higher skill ceiling: because mistakes weren't covered up with powerful draws.
No, Miracles was so powerful because Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top (really just Counterbalance, but whatever) gave the standard blue control skeleton infinite countermagic for 0-1 mana with two nonland permanents resolved.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
You're right about why Grixis is so strong, but plenty of decks had the same synergy engine Miracles abused—including Grixis. Only one of those decks constituted almost a fifth of the top 8s in the format—again, even when they used abundantly clearly inferior win conditions*—so you're heading down a weird path if you're not looking at what specific cards made that deck excel. And before you refer me to the post I'm quoting, DRS isn't the single card that's doing that.
Much as I hate the debate over it, Brainstorm has a lot more to do with why both decks are good than either CounterTop or Deathrite Shaman does. But Brainstorm isn't pulling BUG Nic Fit into the top tables (much as I wish it would).
*I'd be interested, if anyone has the time or data handy, in knowing what the average differentiation between nonland top-8 Miracles cards was in the months prior to the top ban. I'd bet it was rather less idiosyncratic than any two "Grixis" top 8s are these days.
I think the SCG Atlanta Classic 1st place Miracles list ran 19 lands. 20 if you count Search for Azcanta.
k.
I can't see Grixis Delver being nearly so strong without DRS. The deck would take a big hit, and there'd be a lot more reason to run Thresh, Infect, or Prowess instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
As for Czech control, that deck goes to complete shit without DRS and at the very least has to cut a coulour (though even the 3 colour BUG midrange decks will struggle).
DRS doesn't single handedly power those decks, but it is the major lynchpin in the 4 colour good stuff shells.
To add, when a 4c deck can get away with running Blood Moon, you know something needs to be fixed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
https://i.imgur.com/YUb2x5xl.png
Gotta love how decks that plan on regularly casting 3 and 4 drops in Legacy are running 19-20 lands and avoiding manascrew enough to regularly top 8. Feels great when you're playing Jund/Maverick/Dega/whatever with 23-24 lands, plus anywhere from 0-8 dorks, and still get screwed often.
Definitely DRS' fault. Once we ban this creature the format will be nothing but sunshine and daisies. Yep.
Bloodmoon still hurts 4c, DRS is a lot worse than a bird under a moon. It's just that it absolutely cripples the decks they bring it in against so it's worth it. That's like saying "Wow this deck that focuses on Natural Order and Zenith can get away with playing Gaddock Teeg" Teeg still really hurts your deck, it just hurts your opponent's a lot more.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
You missed the point. The point was: 4c decks shouldn't even think about running a card like Blood Moon. But the fact that they can and still not get hurt by it more than it hurting the other decks (probably not even 3c decks; I see it being brought in against Depths and Grixis Delver) is just absurd no matter how you rationalize it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rascalyote
Well, no, because you either side out your Natural Order combo or just don't go for the Teeg when you resolve the Natural Order. And the vast majority of your deck is creature spells anyway so you're losing access to a combo kill but not access to your main gameplan of turning dudes sideways.Quote:
That's like saying "Wow this deck that focuses on Natural Order and Zenith can get away with playing Gaddock Teeg" Teeg still really hurts your deck, it just hurts your opponent's a lot more.
You don't side out your dual lands when you bring in Blood Moon in Czech Pile.
Indeed, I've seen newbie storm players and newbie Miracles players who just picked up the deck blow out a tournament.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rascalyote
I believe there's some number of RUG Delver guys who have blown out SCGs right after getting the deck going, and I think calling Delver decks brain dead is lame. They're pretty darn interesting/difficult if they're facing their less favorable opponents.
Chalice in Xerox?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rascalyote
Perish in Elves?
Canonist in Storm?
The world is upside down.
Jund and Maverick were top-dogs in the past, and they are no less consistent now than in their heyday.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainstorm Ape
If Czech is a better deck than Maverick simply because of BS & Ponder mitigating mana-screw, we would not have had Maverick Summer, because Czech would have already been a better deck!
Midrange decks moved into blue because of new printings.
I don't think access to knowledge via the internet has changed much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Anecdotally, I worked in a hobby store ~15 years ago. Everybody knew Ravager-Affinity was the best deck. The only reason (some) people weren't playing it were:
If anything, it's the people who have changed. MTG used to be more social and fun. Today's players are less social, and perhaps that is related to the rise of smart phones. But finding the "best decks" in 2003 was as easy as pointing and clicking.
- Budget.
- A personal preference for a different net-deck (Tooth & Nail, UW Post, etc).
- A desire to brew.
How about CotV in a deck whose engine includes 8 1-mana tutors? Happens all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthVicious
Funny how completely nuking your opponent is a good trade for obsoleting a few of your own cards.
How about a 2-colour deck with a (very light) :g: splash and no trouble fetching basics for the primary colours? Seeing as we can ignore the :r: splash, that's pretty much what we are looking at.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
And so you shouldn't - they still tap for mana and your basics give you enough colour for almost all of your spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
A more relevant question is: do you side out your 3-colour spells (all 4 of them?) when you side in Moon?