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Read my report a few pages back where i faced alot of black.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
And sure, we have all discussed this as being better against a blue and slower vs. anything else, that's not new at all. It's a metacall as anything else, thats why it's important to have a good sideboard vs. the things you dont expect to face as much as blue.
I don't see a reason to further separate threads. It's not like there are a ton of Tendrils players anyway. As far as I can tell, there is a Tendrils deck that runs a (comparatively) lot of lands with a fetchland/duals/basics configuration (ANT/FT/Iggy Pop/whatever you want to call it) and a deck that runs fewer lands of the rainbow variety (usually called TES). That is the big distinction to focus on, because it drastically affects how you have to approach different matchups. Different enablers give you a little more or a little less at various stages of the game in varying situations, but there isn't enough of a difference to really justify having multiple threads.
To be perfectly honest, there isn't a lot to discuss at this point. We know the relative strengths and weaknesses of the different enablers, cantrips, protection spells, and tutors. Any given player who pilots the fetchland/duals/basics manabase (which I still call FT because it makes sense given my two categories) has around 100 cards that routinely find their way into the main + sideboard with the majority being redundant pieces that are only slightly better/worse in particular situations.
Jegger mentioned that list from the 400+ event was almost the same as was played in October. Interestingly enough, it's also nearly the same as was being played a full year ago (it had Street Wraiths and a 2nd IGG in place of the Ad Nauseams and the extra protection). This is going to continue until something fundamental gets banned from the deck (I'm talking about Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal, or Lion's Eye Diamond, and even then, LED may not be a nail in the coffin) or Wizards decides to print/unerrata another a Flash combo.
Never missed a secound Tendrils. I didnīt play against Discard thus I didnīt use the Dark Confidants.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
Sry canīt find a Non-LED ANT thread and I think a lot of people want to read something about those lists.And if you donīt want just ignore them...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
In my meta there is no MBC, I chose my list because I expected a lot of Landstill and CB list...
In my opinion LED+Infīs only advantage is that you can play Iggy Loop... Itīs just useful in the first game against fast Aggro and some kind of hate (Meddling Mage)... But post board Angelīs Grace is so fucking good against for example Goblins that you just donīt need Inf + LED. But I agree which list is better is a metagame choice, in my meta the non LED list is far better.
Lets not forget that my list and linux list plays 2 city of traitors. I'm in love with this land, the +1 mana it gives is huge. I've only seen non-led lists with traitors.
Swamp, Traitors + Dark ritual = good old hatred days (Ad nauseum cc)
And works nice with krosan grip cc 2G.
And perhaps meditate cc 2U, if the decks gets a doomsday plan and so forth...
Im afraid of going up more then 1 since it can only help ramping mana cause he can't cast anything else. no ritual/bstorm/tutor.
I play 2 City beause I play 3 Top main.
I've never seen anyone do that. I'm gonna try it in my straight d-day list. That would be better than the City of Brass I'm testing atm. CoB sucks so far. I was trying to round out my 5c D-Day list, but it just didn't cut it. Too random.
Pce,
--DC
I played 2 city, 2 top.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Playing city in a 2-color list works fine, i haven't tested it with other colors.
playing duress and PoN as protection makes it work.
In fact, I wrote that because if we want to do a separate thread for LEDless version, we also need to do another thread for Hybrid ANT version. We can maintain all versions with AN here.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
True, sincerely there aren't many margins of improvement for the deck.
We can improve our skill or to adapt our SB strategies to the meta, but the skeleton is remained unchanged from a while.
For the LEDless players, I thought to 2 addons:
- Crystal Vein instead of City of Traitors. If I don't use Sensei, Vein is strictly better.
- Peer Through Depts like a surrogate of IT. If I don't use 8 tutors I presume I need a better setup engine. Perhaps 10-11 manipulation cards (4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorm, 2-3 Peer). Without Sensei, because it improves the control and black based matchup, but slow down further the deck.
A question: has the LEDless version a worst matchup than standard version againt combo and Ichorid? Without Orim, we can't adopt a defensive strategy against these decks and we are obligated to adopt a beatdown role in the match.
All these are suppositions. I don't play a legacy deck from almost 2 months. :wink:
My question from a few pages back still stands: with a normal AdN/IGG LED version, without DDay, 14 lands and no Tops: what is the best Sb plan against CB decks? 3-4 Grips? Pyroblasts? Tomstalkers/Goyfs? Spell Snares? DDay Sb? multiple EtW? I've tested the first 2 a little bit and those didn't really seem to work great. It also greatly depends on what you board out. Anyone wants to give his opinion on the best plan including what you board out?
I'm just brainstorming with the 2-cardcombo angel's grace and AdN which is an instant win if they resolve. Vintage decks play 4 Ad Nauseum.
3-4 Ad Nauseum
2-4 Angel's Grace
2-3 Peer through depths
Isn't Impulse better than PTD? Especially considering the fact that it does not reaveal things to come and gets land if needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by jegger
How about Boseiju?
Whenever I mention it, it seems to be answered by "Wasteland", but I still think it could play a bigger part in Legacy than it is. As an sb card, it would help against everything Thresh can throw at us (barring Thoughtseize), as well as potentially raising the mana count, which helps casting Chant/Duress plus AdN (or virtually doubling the use of some lands).Quote:
Originally Posted by mercc
There are, however, many cards that fill a similar role and are more versatile - Chant, Duress, Seize - some of which not only cost no life but conditionally work against fast beats or disrupt opposig game plans as well. Still, in a sea of blue, I think it's worth a try.
Keep in mind that this strategy pretty much means you want to go off with AdN (as opposed to Doomsday), and do so a turn later than usual if you want to enjoy Boseiju protection, which is problematic in the face of Goyf.
Wasteland is a solid answer, but "too random" is more likely to be the correct answer. Can't find it when you need it like you can with your Duals and Basics. You would need multiples, but it's Legendary which screws up land-drops, and then there's Needle and Wasteland. Plus, it's bad against CB as it's a one-time use a turn unless you are trying to push through your removal on CB (which is dumb since your removal has Split-Second), or making sure a Chant resolves, but that's pretty shitty too since it's easier to splash red for Pyroblast or as other players have mentioned with their LED-less versions, Pact of Negation.
It was tried a long time ago in the original SW version and sucked hardcore (for me at least).
Pce,
--DC
I guess you could go for eot AdN, then profit from the untap. You still need to resolve a Ritual eot as well, unless you have five lands/Moxen (unlikely, as some beats will likely have been applied). And then you still have to draw a critical number of Rituals so that Force/CounterTop doesn't kill you, and IT/LED or Mystical/cantrip become a weak spot too. And it does nothing against opposing Chants.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
As a sidenote, you won't even be able to push Chant through with it without 3sphere out. By the same token, it does nothing against Chalice at 0 or 1.
Okay, mark me convinced. I still think it could be used profitably somewhere, but probably not in ANT.
uh, dropped from decks to beat to established deck. Is it because of recent showings?
That means we have to work guys..
@matelml: CB decks remains our worst matchup. If I found a very capable player, it's difficult to win. Anyway some plans are better than others.
Beast plan in SB keeps busy too much space in SB. The use of Stalker forces us to side out AN and others beasts like Goyf and Specter go under CB. I've also tried some time ago DDay in SB, but against CB matchup, this don't change anything, we need anyway K.Grip o W.Away to combo with CB into play.
The plans I tried more are the green and red splash. Sincerely I prefer the red splash because it's more versatile against many matchup (like merfolk, landstill, black based decks and in general all the no CB blue based decks), but if the presence of CB decks is very high, I can use the green splash.
Usually with red splash, in the CB matchup, I side out 1 island, 1 mox, 1 AN (if my opponent doesn't use black for Seize), 1 R.R., 1 IT, 1 Ponder, 1 orim for 3 Pyro, 1 W.Away, 1 EtW, 2 Volcanic Island. Then this SB plan depends from cards I have in main/SB, the cards my opponent uses (Seize, Wasteland,...) and from how I wake up that morning.
@C.P.: I prefer PTD instead of Impulse because it digs one more. Ok, PTD can't search for Petals and lands, but if I cast it, this means I have into play 2 mana source and often these are enough or if I really need, I can take with PTD a Brainstorm or Ponder to search the third land. Ok, sometimes, for example, when I haven't black mana source into play I can found useful the possibility to take a Delta with Impulse, but I think that the fifth card I can reveal with PTD can give me the possibility to win more games.Ah, anyway I'm not sure the LEDless version really needs Impulse or Peer Through Depts.
@mercc: I'm happy if the deck is no more in the DTB section. I don't take any advantage from this distinction. There are some people that are happy to see their pet deck in DTB. I don't found any utility. My objective is to win, not to put the deck in DTB section. If the deck has less use and visibility, a major number of players don't know how to play against this archetype.
I'm continuing to try the LEDless version. It has some points of strenght like the possibility to do more frequently a turn 2 combo protected with Pact, but I'm looking, at least with my version, that there are more dead cards in many situations (the fourth Mox, the second ToA,...).
Sorry for double post.
Yersteday I take ANT after 5 months and I win a 60 people tournament.
List very similar to another one I played in november with red splash in SB.
My matchups in swiss:
2-1 vs Affinity
2-0 vs NLU
2-0 vs WW 4C with noisy critters (gaddock, mage, canonist,...)
2-1 vs AggroLoam
ID vs Landstill
ID vs Belcher
In top8:
2-1 vs AggroLoam
drop and split of prize of Bant's opponent friend
2-0 vs Belcher
An I bring home the Dragon Stompy I win.
Next weekend is a big tournament (First price 4x FBB Duals) and I decided to play ANT.
My list:
Lands
2 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [IN] Island (1)
1 [A] Swamp (1)
3 [b] Underground Sea
1 [b] Tropical Island
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
// Spells
3 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [b] Dark Ritual
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
4 [US] Duress
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [LRW] Ponder
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 4 [TSP] Angel's Grace
SB: 1 [b] Tundra
SB: 2 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [AQ] Hurkyl's Recall
Iīm expecting a lot of Landstill/Thres with CB and maybe some Rock because Maelstrom Puls is legal.
Iīm not 100% convinced of Chain of Vapor. I played it on a tournament before and I didnīt like it because it made nothing against CB Pre Board.
Otherwise cc1 is better than 3cc of Wipe Away. And with CoV you are able to win easily without ANT, and this happen sometimes.
What are your experiences with CoV or Wipe Away?
Would you change something in the list?