[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

Finished 3rd today in a 14-man tournament. 3-1 overall.

Revised decklist:

4x Tombstalker
4x Tarmogoyf

4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Daze
4x Stifle
3x Spell Snare

2x Thoughtseize
3x Snuff Out

1x Sylvan Library
3x Engineered Explosives

4x Wasteland
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Swamp

Sideboard:

2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Ravenous Trap
3x Pithing Needle
3x Krosan Grip
3x Dispel
2x Ghastly Demise

Round 1 vs. Shelldock Isle Doomsday

Game 1 - He opens with Thoughtseize. I have Ponder, Force and Thoughtseize in hand and let it resolve. He takes Thoughtseize. I start cantripping and counter his 3rd turn Doomsday. He can't go off, I resolve Tombstalker about 10 turns in (slow hands by both of us) and win.

Game 2 - Open on Needle naming Top, wasteland his duals, get there with Goyf / 'Stalker.

1-0-0

Round 2 vs. Life

Game 1 - Beat down quickly with Goyf. I 2-for-1 his Vial + Nomads at one point using Explosives.

Game 2 - First turn Needle naming his just-played Vial. Second turn Needle naming Nomads en-Kor. Beat with 3x Goyf.

2-0-0

Round 3 vs. Stax

Game 1 - Both of us mull to 5. Critical misplay. I shuffle away Tombstalker and go for Goyf beats. He has wastelock package. I should have fetched the basic Swamp and played 'Stalker instead of shuffling it away. I needed one more turn, he has Elspeth, and Goyf was 4 power to Tombstalker's 5 power. D'oh.

Game 2 - He mulls to 6, I mull to 5. I keep super-risky hand with only 1x Trop and 1x Wasteland. Tapped out turn 1 to play ponder, found nothing. He is unable to get much going either, gets Smokestack out but I have enough Goyfs to barely win. Key play was Wastelanding his Ancient Tomb, he needed the mana to cast everything else in hand.

Game 3 - I counter Trinisphere, he follows with Ghostly Prison-Chalice @ 1-Smokestack-Elspeth. I can't draw into any of my 3x Explosives or 3x Grip and lose handily to Elspeth. I boarded Needle out after game 2, and Elspeth kills me :-)

2-1-0

Round 4 vs. Mythic Conscription (basically a Standard deck)

Game 1 - I counter his 2x Elspeth, Tombstalker wins race vs. Lotus Cobra.

Game 2 - I can't find lands. At one point I had to pay 8 life to Sylvan Library just to dig deeper. I finally cast Tombstalker when I am at 2 life. I filter cards like crazy, play Goyf. He starts chumping with Birds of Paradise and Noble Hierarch. I win the game with 1 life.

3-1-0

Definitely an interesting gamut of decks in my meta. There was Goblins and Zoo present but I didn't get paired up with them the whole night.

I made Top 16 in Columbus with this list:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Predict
1 Sylvan Library

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Snuff Out
3 EE

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp

Board:
3 Krosan Grip
2 Dispel
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Smother
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Tormod's Crypt

Didn't board in Tormod's Crypt a single time, although there were a few Lands decks there. Dredge seems all but dead, or at least far enough off the map to maybe start reconsidering this spot. Everything else was good, and the 5 extra removal spells were good vs aggro decks. I think I want more smothers though. Anyway, Hymn and Predict are very good. I ID'd in the last round as I don't think I had a shot at top 8, but that could have been a mistake. Either way I got an invite, so I'm pretty stoked. If anyone is still playing this deck you should try this configuration for the disruption suite, it ran very smoothly. That's all I have to say for now.

I also played in the GP with team america and ended up 27th. I think it's safe to say this deck is still good, and it doesn't seem to get nearly the respect it deserves. It was especially good in the field, lots of different combo decks, there didn't see to be an overabundance of zoo or merfolk. Here's the version I played:

4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Goyf
4 Tombstalker
3 Snuff Out
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Thoughtseize
3 Spell Pierce
1 Preordain
4 U. Sea
9 UGB Fetchlands
2 Trop Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland

SB:
3 Dispel
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Smother
2 Extirpate
1 Thoughtseize

I was happy with the way the maindeck played out. Dispel was great out of the board, my graveyard hate was also probably overkill, I played dredge once and lands once and only drew 1 extirpate against dredge, beating both decks anyway. I would cut a crypt for another removal spell, since two of my losses were to zoo and merfolk.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nitewolf9

I made Top 16 in Columbus with this list:
If anyone is still playing this deck you should try this configuration for the disruption suite, it ran very smoothly. That's all I have to say for now.

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Congrats! I'm going to play Team America this sunday for the first time. I wanted to for a long time but I was having too much fun with my pet deck Faerie Stompy.

I assume that the single swamp is an exit for Snuff Out and the postboard removal against Magus of the Moon and other nonbasic landdestruction?

After having read half this topic from the start onwards, I'm quite surprised of your choice to run Hymn. Is it because too many low cc creatures slip through, in comnination with the use of basic lands, making you waste counterspells on them?

If you can tell me how the changes in this configuration as opposed to the original interact with the current metagame (mostly zoo/merfolk/ANT/Thresh/reanimate matchups if I'm correct) I'd be very grateful.

The swamp is mainly there because so many people are running Path to Exile, and since the only double color requirements for the deck are double black, it made the most sense. Having outs to magus is a nice side benefit.

Hymn is what I settled on mainly because Sinkhole is just not as powerful as it used to be. Decks have gotten faster and hymn is probably the best turn 2 play this deck has vs aggressive decks. I tried running more draw here but that made the deck too light on disruption. Spell Pierce and Spell Snare were way too conditional, and Thoughtseize is too painful right now. Inquisition is OK but not nearly as powerful as Hymn can be. Hymn can also be LD, which is awesome. I also got to go "Hymn, Hymn, I win" a couple of times during the tournament, which was highly enjoyable :).

This build has migrated a bit away from its roots and opted for more ways to generate raw card advantage. The switch has been very strong. I just kept changing things around when I saw something that needed to change, and this is the end result.

What are your opinions on EE vs. Maelstrom Pulse vs. Deed? And Blood Moon seems like gg against you, if it resolves you're screwed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jrsthethird

What are your opinions on EE vs. Maelstrom Pulse vs. Deed? And Blood Moon seems like gg against you, and that seems a lot more prominent than Magus.

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Deed is too slow, and EE is better than Pulse vs Merfolk and Zoo.

Sure, if a deck resolves blood moon that's a problem (if I don't have a threat out already, I can still cast removal and countermagic under moon). But what decks other than dragon stompy play that card anyway? Where are you getting that the card is "more prominant than Magus"?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jrsthethird

I suppose you can Extirpate it if you know it's coming

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Uhhhhhh....what?

Wow, thanks for the quick reply, I'm actually sitting at the table building my deck right now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nitewolf9

The swamp is mainly there because so many people are running Path to Exile, .....

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Hahaha, you just wanted your free land, lol! I never would expect that. Haven't played for a year, so...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nitewolf9

Hymn is what I settled on mainly because Sinkhole is just not as powerful as it used to be. Decks have gotten faster and hymn is probably the best turn 2 play this deck has vs aggressive decks. ..... Hymn can also be LD, which is awesome. I also got to go "Hymn, Hymn, I win" a couple of times during the tournament, which was highly enjoyable :).

This build has migrated a bit away from its roots and opted for more ways to generate raw card advantage. The switch has been very strong. I just kept changing things around when I saw something that needed to change, and this is the end result.

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About Hymn, I think it's power is highly underestimated nowadays. Especially at big tournaments, it is not random discard at all. There's so many (amateur) players who just hold their hand of cards in front of you, with their eye fixated on one card "NOOOO!!! DON'T PICK THAT ONE!!!" Or even try to hide the card from you or let one stick out they want you to pick. Some even sort their hands by card type and don't shuffle before resolving the Hymn, go figure... Now you can call that opportunist or cheating or unfair, I call it "I should shuffle and spread 'em out on the table because I cannot deal with random jank mentally"

In fact, my first constructed tournament ever was the Dutch Legacy championship in 2006 and I placed 21st out of 128 players with Pikula's Homebrew. I got there because of Hymn. "What did I jank? Goblin Ringleader? Can I read it, never seen that card before... ":laugh: Then the last 3 rounds of Swiss I lost because those were experienced players.

How do you play predict? You ditch your own card you don't want, or is it another metagame choice I don't expect? Oh wait, I think I get it. Against counterbalance?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nitewolf9

Deed is too slow, and EE is better than Pulse vs Merfolk and Zoo.

Sure, if a deck resolves blood moon that's a problem (if I don't have a threat out already, I can still cast removal and countermagic under moon). But what decks other than dragon stompy play that card anyway? Where are you getting that the card is "more prominant than Magus"?




Uhhhhhh....what?

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I'm thinking of the Goblins lists that run Blood Moon in the board; I haven't seen Magus in a list except for Dragon Stompy. A search on deckcheck shows that I was wrong though, my bad. I thought more decks played the enchantment since it's generally harder to deal with, and I forgot about Imperial Recruiter lists.

Also, I was confusing Extirpate with Thought Hemorrhage...:facepalm:

But how does casting countermagic or removal help you if you don't have a threat out? All your spells cost BB or G when all you have is a basic Swamp.

The 1 basic Swamp is extremely good when facing Stax or Lands. Just sayin'.

Thought Hemorrhage? What deck is it played in?

It's not, I looked at Extirpate and thought it was Thought Hemorrhage. For some reason naming a card in your opponent's deck and wiping it for B at Split Second speed did not stick out to me as utterly broken.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jrsthethird

But how does casting countermagic or removal help you if you don't have a threat out? All your spells cost BB or G when all you have is a basic Swamp.

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Playing your threat is phase 2 of this deck. Removing opposing creatures and countering spells can happen in any phase, and has very little influence from whether or not you have a threat out. (Granted you want to save some countermagic to protect your threat if necessary)

Phase 1 - Land Denial + Cantrip
Phase 2 - Drop a Threat
Phase 3 - Protect Threat/Win

Occasionally you'll play a threat before you finish stifling fetches/wlanding nonbasics, however this is the general gameplan.

Here's my current list, for reference:

// LANDS
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

// CREATURES
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf

// SPELLS
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Snuff Out
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
1 Sylvan Library

// SIDEBOARD
3 Dispel
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
2 Smother
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Spell Pierce
1 Thoughtseize

Main difference between my deck and most is Maelstrom Pulse. It's really good, even in legacy, even given how fast the format is. It's not often you get to 2-for-1 with it, but it's basically an out to almost anything. And besides, who doesn't want to blow up 3 mox diamonds vs lands? I do recognize it's occasionally a card that sits in your hand, and it doesnt pitch to force, but with all the cantrips I think it's a very viable utility card. It even snipes counterbalance from time to time.

We're talking about a resolved Blood Moon. With 1 Swamp as your only basic, how can you do win the game from an empty board when all your threats are uncastable?

.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jrsthethird

We're talking about a resolved Blood Moon. With 1 Swamp as your only basic, how can you do win the game from an empty board when all your threats are uncastable?

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That's simple. You can't.

But just look at the ridiculous amount of cards that Team America runs to prevent threats from resolving in the first place. Almost enough answers to make your question irrelevant. And ask yourself, how big is the chance of this happening on an empty board?

Oh, yeah, the swamp has nothing to do with being blood moon proof. It's only there for the path target and an out against waste locks (you can drop the second land and play goyf/stalker before it gets wasted). I suppose if there was nothing but moon effects in your meta you could add another swamp and an island, but I really don't see the point.

If you see that much non-basic hate, I'm thinking the answer here is to not play this deck, and probably just play MUC or something with a bajillion basics.

Hi, after a year of not playing legacy, I went to a tournament with this deck. I took Nitewolf9's build with some modifications. I expect lots of Zoo and Merfolk decks, but the Dutch metagame was very unpredictable as always.

This was my build:

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Snuff Out
3 EE

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

Board:
3 Krosan Grip
3 engineered plague
2 llawan, cephalid empress
2 Diabolic Edict
2 threads of disloyalty
3 Tormod's Crypt

Match 1: RGW Zoo
Game 1
I'm on the play, I manage to keep him off his red mana with stifle and wasteland. Meanwhile he beats me down to 10 after which I resolve Explosives. I get to attack with tombstalker which is removed with Path to Exile. I counter and destroy some more critters after that. I get to play another Tombstalker which goes all the way.

Game 2
I board in more removal and Threads of Disloyalty. He plays an early Gaddock Teeg which I cannot counter. I get an early Goyf which is exiled. Since I have a useless snuff out and explosives in hand, I decide to steal Teeg with Threads of Disloyalty and slap him with his own Teeg. He exiles Teeg in response to Hymn. I get a Tombstalker but I need a second threat because I'm at 6 life and need a blocker. He has two lands when I draw a second Daze. I take some risk and attack with stalker. Next turn he can attack me and then play bolt, but I can play two Daze. He plays a third land, atacks and plays bolt. I should have played more safe here.

Game 3
This is again a close race, I'm winning but time's up.

Match 2: UGB Emrakul combo
Game 1
He plays turn two show and tell, I FOW, he FOW's back, I lose to Emrakul.

Game 2
I can keep him off blue mana and screw up his hand with Hymn and blowing up his two Noble Hierarch with Explosives. He wants to resolve Eureka using Elvish Spirit Guide to reach 4 mana but I stifle the Guide. It takes some time time before I draw threats but eventually I end the game with Stalker and Goyf.

Game 3
Close call. He resolves show and tell, and I stifle Emrakul's annhilator ability. Then I play brainstorm into Diabolic Edict. Unforunately he noticed the Noble Hierarch in play just like I did so Emrakul stays. Bummer...

Match 3: BWG Deadguy Homebrew with Goyf
Game 1 and 2 he rapes my hand, blows up my lands, and gets Confidant/Top online, ending the game with Goyf.

Match 4: BW Deadguy with a shitload of discard and removal and some new tech.
Game 1: he rapes my hand, blows up my lands, and gets Confidant with Jitte.
Game 2: He starts with that new white leyline, rendering my Edicts useless. He rapes my hand, blows up my lands, keeps me off black mana all the time. Game ends with that big flyer that says I can't lose which he plowshares when I'm at -8 life.

Match 5: RGW Zoo

Game 1: Close race, similar to the first match but I win. I advise him to shuffle and spread the cards on the table when Hymn resolves because he glances at the cards he doesn't want to lose while holding his hand of cards in front of me, his face showing some sort of nervous panic. Never resolve Hymn like that unless you practiced your pokerface, lol :-).
Game 2: I screw up his manabase so bad he'll never be able to recover and win easily.

The Good: On the play, this deck can open incredibly strong with Stifle in hand and Daze backup. Especially with follow up from Hymn and Wasteland you can still pro-actively mess with your opponent's gameplan. The single Sylvan Library was a bomb and so were the Stifles.

The Bad: The matchup against B/W discard/land destruction decks was terrible. Drawing a FOW with an empty discarded hand does not help, Snuff Out becomes useless. Plus, they have lots of options for first turn disruption and acceleration, whereas this build slightly underperforms in comparison. And the combo matchup was poor.

The Ugly: What I really miss in this build is a card that enables to be the agressive player, it is a bit too reactive to what the oppponent is doing. That means that the build has to fit the metagame perfectly otherwise it won't perform. I want to put more cards in this deck that will allow me to start doing stuff from turn 1.

Also, Mistbind Clique was nice, but not great. I played this card about three times. The disruption is decent, but the 3/1 body doesn't stick around for very long like a Goyf or Stalker can.

I'm going to test a different build with the following changes:
-1 Snuff out
-2 Clique
-1 Explosives
-1 Sylvan Library
-1 Hymn

+1 Trinket Mage
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+4 Kozilek's Inquisition

Kozilek's Inquisitions will allow me to see the opponents hand and pro-activily remove a threat, making my starting hand better, especially with daze backup. This makes the disruption from Vendillion Clique sort of redundant. With the Trinket Mage I increase the chance of finding the Sensei's Top, which is not possible with Sylvan Library. The top is also another possible first turn play. The Mage can also find explosives, which I did not need in every matchup right away, or post board crypts.

In the sideboard:
3 Spell Pierce
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Sinkhole

I found the matchup against creature decks already quite good. With this sideboard I hope to stand a better chance against disruption by giving them a taste of their own medicine. The extra disruption from spell pierce may also help against combo decks, or other decks with a low creature count.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dr. DOOM

Game 2
I can keep him off blue mana and screw up his hand with Hymn and blowing up his two Noble Hierarch with Explosives. He wants to resolve Eureka using Elvish Spirit Guide to reach 4 mana but I stifle the Guide. It takes some time time before I draw threats but eventually I end the game with Stalker and Goyf.

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Just as a side note: You can't stifle ESG because it's a mana ability.

Was just thinking the same thing as I read it.