Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
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Saying double Careful Study is better than double Breakthrough isn't thinking straight, I doubt double Careful Study is better than a single Breakthrough by itself and Breakthrough + outlet is clearly superior. What about the times you have Careful Study and Breakthrough, or the times you have 2 Breakthrough and 2 mana etc. etc.
You said that game 1s aren't the focus of the deck. See, Game 1 is the only time where breakthrough matters because there is no crypt and going all in with it isn't that big a gamble. If you're not focused on that then why bother wasting a slot on a card that doesn't help post-board games that you say you focus on? That makes no sense. Lessening the deck's reliance on breakthrough makes it smoother to play when they come out completely post-board. 3 is enough to speed-up the deck but not too much so as to clunk up hands. There are definitely more times where double breakthrough is dead rather than a double study. The second breakthrough could've been an additional land or something else more useful than a 2nd copy of a card that you only need to resolve once.
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Also saying Tribes are clunky is insanity, no one cares about game 1, Tribe is all about game 2 where having ways around Crypt is the difference between match wins and match losses.
There is such a thing as having too much. 8 outlets open-up hands that give you alot of discard outlets. It's not that hands like that are bad. It's just that they could be better had that 3rd outlet was a study or an additional land or a therapy or whatever. The breakthrough case and the tribe case are relatively the same, it's a matter of having too much of a certain card when hands would be better if that excess card would have been something different and more useful.
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Yeah cutting narc's for ghast's seems awful even though it does feed unmask if it's in your hand you should be able to consistently hardcast narcomoeba games 2 and 3 where it can sit in your hand. Hardcasting bloodghast is a lot harder and that cephalid coliseum you have in your opener seems a lot less friendly when you have ghast instead of narcomoeba in your opener. And narc is just a staple card of every successful dredge list across all the formats so there's a reason not to cut it.
Oh I see, I rarely play hands with narcs in them unless they're loaded with draw, discard, dredger and lands. I too am not a fan of taking out narcs, I'm just testing it out. From my experience, narcs at hand are dead cards more times than ghasts are. narcs, you have cast from when you can cast other more relevant cards when they're in your opening grip or you study into them, as compared to ghast, where you discard him when in hand and bring him back some other time. Narc is free if you dredge into him, unlike ghasts where you need to play a land. It's probably just getting the right balance so as to minimize their ineffectiveness.
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I would never cut thug for dakmor salvage. Thug is ichorid food as well as just being a better dredger. As a lot of people know, you can put narcomoeba back on top with thug's ability. And you can hardcast thug if need be as well as pitching it to unmask. Thug>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Dakmor Salvage
I think people have salvage all wrong. You don't cut dredgers for salvage because salvage doesn't function as a dredger in the deck. Only a complete retard would use him as a dredger. Salvages replace other land cards. Its virtually trading-off 2 of your normal lands for 2 lands that go back to your hand from the gy thus giving you 2 opportunities to bring back ghasts for a last ditch push. They're also not lands that you play to cast spells. Their only use is to bring back ghasts late in the game, picking up where paradise left off if it gets wasted.
OT: Oboro looks really interesting. I might actually play these in place of my 2 missing paradises. A little hard on the color though, but its better than ghost town. I'm a get some of these. Great find guys!
@Grudge, Needle, and Chewer:
Grudge is good cause you dredge into him, and illicit a premature activation. It can't be stifled cause flashback isn't an ability its an alternate casting cost. Chewer is good cause it gives zombies and can't be easily countered. The thing is, the things that you plan on crushing with chewer are the same things stopping it from being returned, thus making the card more linear in terms of how it gets played. Spliting them sounds nice but in practice its really difficult, one comes out when you need the other, and these are inconsistencies that often cost people games. Needles are safe bets because they should ALWAYS be played reactively to avoid naming the wrong cards. Its only drawback is it needs to be mulled into.
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Originally Posted by
SMR0079
My friend doesn't understand that Breakthrough is the most broken of all your discard outlets, and wants to cut one.
Please help me convince him that he's insane.
Right now he's stuck on playing with Imp & Tribe and some amount of Studys
His reasoning is he always wants a discard creature turn one, and says he doesn't like having to dump his whole hand with breakthrough.
I take the position that both Breakthrough and Study are strictly better than Tribe, especially if you are running the Imp for your Ichorids.
The way this deck should be played, you're friend is absolutely right. The reason this deck adds more outlets because it doesn't want to discard its hand in one big motion that doesn't guarantee a victory. This is another reason why I like study more than breakthrough because it doesn't put you in a position where you have committed too much in a single play. This deck doesn't play extremes like LED where its either its super fast or slow DDD. Non-LED gives the pilot a lot of control so that he/she can choose to win fast or win slow. Plus, breakthrough serves as a draw in the deck not a discard.
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Reality check
3rd SCG
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29942
1st & 5th 59 people
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29531
4th 170
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=13846&page=19
The top three Mana Dredge lists that finished in the top8 of large events ALL ran 4 Breakthrough.
Breakthrough is not LED. You are not forced to go all in with it. Simultaneously drawing and discarding that many cards with the potential to keep a card makes it superior to any spell you actually cast in Dredge. It's a card you always want to see every game. Running three because you don't want to draw multiples is absurd. Once you resolve it you are winning.
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
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Originally Posted by
SMR0079
These play differently than the lists discussed before. These lists play 3 returns a sphinx and FKZ, that means these lists are geared to win fast. 3 returns increases the chance of hitting at least one in a resolved breakthrough, Sphinx to continue dredging until they find FKZ to win now. The other decks mentioned before focuses on grinding things out post-board which is a different philosophy, thus requiring a different configuration of cards in the list.
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
the list that took 3rd at SCG ran NO putrid imps. I cant say that I can agree with that at all. Good that it worked for him, but personally not running at least 7 permanent discard effects is a mistake in this deck. I run 8, but I also play around alot of aggro, so tribe needs to be a 4 of in my list to work as a blocker and survive burn. 3 breakthrough is plenty. Often people run an additional land in place of breakhtrough #4. Ive played with lists that run 2 breakthrough and function fine, a teammate of mine plays 1 and he has top'd with that list a few times. I think if you arent playing zealot breakthrough gets riskier, game 1 you open position up to mass removal if you cant therapy the shit out of their hand, and relying on having 2 mana early so you can breakthrough and keep a card isnt such a good bet.
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
I run 4 Troll 4 Stinkweed 3 Thug maindeck, and I occasionally go to 2 Thug post-board. If you're cutting Dredgers, you can't also cut draw spells or you risk going nowhere.
Edit: You guys do know this is a combo deck, right? If you keep cutting pieces, you stop being able to win.
And re: Breakthrough. I trim one in post-board games, sometimes. But sometimes they don't have Crypt, and you need to put them away before they get one. And Breakthrough is one of the best cards in the deck to recover from Crypt.
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
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I run 4 Troll 4 Stinkweed 3 Thug maindeck, and I occasionally go to 2 Thug post-board. If you're cutting Dredgers, you can't also cut draw spells or you risk going nowhere.
Edit: You guys do know this is a combo deck, right? If you keep cutting pieces, you stop being able to win.
And re: Breakthrough. I trim one in post-board games, sometimes. But sometimes they don't have Crypt, and you need to put them away before they get one. And Breakthrough is one of the best cards in the deck to recover from Crypt.
QFT!
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These play differently than the lists discussed before. These lists play 3 returns a sphinx and FKZ, that means these lists are geared to win fast. 3 returns increases the chance of hitting at least one in a resolved breakthrough, Sphinx to continue dredging until they find FKZ to win now. The other decks mentioned before focuses on grinding things out post-board which is a different philosophy, thus requiring a different configuration of cards in the list.
You are creating a severre disadvantage by eliminating the combo finish. The streangh of Dredge with Mana is that can switch roles depending on game state and can recover from getting behind. Just because Bloodghast gives you the option to slow roll doesn't mean that is the sole strategy you should employ. You are only handicapping yourself, and in doing so give decks like Zoo and Goblins the chance to race you when you should be able to blow them out of the water, let alone the fact that you also make your combo MU even worse.
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
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Originally Posted by
Anusien
I run 4 Troll 4 Stinkweed 3 Thug maindeck, and I occasionally go to 2 Thug post-board. If you're cutting Dredgers, you can't also cut draw spells or you risk going nowhere.
Edit: You guys do know this is a combo deck, right? If you keep cutting pieces, you stop being able to win.
And re: Breakthrough. I trim one in post-board games, sometimes. But sometimes they don't have Crypt, and you need to put them away before they get one. And Breakthrough is one of the best cards in the deck to recover from Crypt.
I would cut Careful Study long before cutting Breakthrough. It's pretty bad if they have an onboard Crypt, in which case you sort of sit there and dredge until you find a Grudge to flashback, and then you ship a Troll and cast Breakthrough and they're dead. I usually cut some Therapies, an Ichorid, a Dread Return, a Thug, etc. There are arguments for just grinding out games without Breakthrough, but you give them a lot of extra time to cantrip into more hate. Similarly, there are arguments that you want more Ichorids postboard to pressure their Crypts. It depends on how many Therapies you need after boarding, how many cards you brought in, and whether or not you need Chosen.
Does anyone ever have problems using Paradise to make an outlet on turn one and then be unable to activate Coliseum on two?
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
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Originally Posted by
SMR0079
That's me and a pretty standard list.
You people are messing around with a list that you don't have much experience playing (correctly).
The deck did VERY well for me and I lost in the semi finals to a terrible MU plus I mulled to 4 game 1 and 2.
Please realize that your changing the main 60 around in a deck that already wins game 1 so you all should be consternating on making the deck optimal games 2/3.
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
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Originally Posted by
Anusien
I run 4 Troll 4 Stinkweed 3 Thug maindeck, and I occasionally go to 2 Thug post-board. If you're cutting Dredgers, you can't also cut draw spells or you risk going nowhere.
Edit: You guys do know this is a combo deck, right? If you keep cutting pieces, you stop being able to win.
And re: Breakthrough. I trim one in post-board games, sometimes. But sometimes they don't have Crypt, and you need to put them away before they get one. And Breakthrough is one of the best cards in the deck to recover from Crypt.
The best cards to recover from crypt are putrid imp and tireless tribe. I wouldnt say games 2/3 it is as much of a combo deck. You need ichorid to recur 2/3 times along with bridges in your grave and a way to stop hate. Breakthrough into no moebas, and tossing all your ichorids just to be crypted away next turn isnt something I would consider a good gameplan. I see no reason to keep breakthrough in the deck games 2/3. Ive run 4 thug for a long time and I board 1 out so I still have the "standard" 3 to feed ichorid. Having 12 dregders and 8 discard effects let me keep more opening hands than running 4 breakthrough. All arguments aside, if you are running discard outlets, dredgers, bridge, ichorid and land your deck is going to win some games. there is no perfect configuration since this deck relies on seeing stuff in your hand and in your grave. Its going to show up in one or the other, if it happens the way you want is another thing. This deck is a little luck based at times which we all know. Ive cast turn 2 breakthough with a troll in my grave and hit 4 land and no other dredgers off it. that sucks
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
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Please realize that your changing the main 60 around in a deck that already wins game 1 so you all should be consternating on making the deck optimal games 2/3.
What does that mean? I posted my list but nobody really said anything about it. My only concern is the breakthrough/careful study debate. I like having the discard creatures. Even with a Pimp a couple bloodghasts and 1-2 ichorids coming back the game is won without even dredging your whole deck
Also as far as taking the combo out of the deck, I would much rather just dread return one time for Iona then try to get the sphinx going then try to get the Flame Kim. This is where I agree with BreathWeapon (to an extent) you don't need all those other targets when Iona is the nuts (this is including the sb). I like having the extra creatures 4 ichorids 3-4 bloodghasts, 4 Pimps, 3 tribs 4 nacro because its that much easier to get creatures on board to sack for cabal or better yet Iona (even troll if Iona can't be found) getting the zombies
To me I seriously hate having 1 land and casting breakthrough, dropping my whole hand defeats the purpose imo
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
@ SlopeeJ
This deck with the standard 60 MD should get you their game 1 85+% of the time.
So people messing with the 75 should see how much the changes improve games2/3 because that should be your main focus.
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
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Originally Posted by
SMR0079
QFT!
You are creating a severre disadvantage by eliminating the combo finish. The streangh of Dredge with Mana is that can switch roles depending on game state and can recover from getting behind. Just because Bloodghast gives you the option to slow roll doesn't mean that is the sole strategy you should employ. You are only handicapping yourself, and in doing so give decks like Zoo and Goblins the chance to race you when you should be able to blow them out of the water, let alone the fact that you also make your combo MU even worse.
Mind Twist + Tinker Colossus + Grizzly Fate + Spark Elementals IS A COMBO FINISH - do you really need to add 3 more slots to win past that? WTF.
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
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Originally Posted by
SMR0079
You are creating a severre disadvantage by eliminating the combo finish. The streangh of Dredge with Mana is that can switch roles depending on game state and can recover from getting behind. Just because Bloodghast gives you the option to slow roll doesn't mean that is the sole strategy you should employ. You are only handicapping yourself, and in doing so give decks like Zoo and Goblins the chance to race you when you should be able to blow them out of the water, let alone the fact that you also make your combo MU even worse.
This is the case game 1 because there is no hate, you have to absolutely try to blow them off asap. But the problem is, you can't really do this in post-board games where hate is stopping you, more importantly, a good opponent will always try to keep crypt or relic open, and they will hit you with it when it hurts most. The combo is good asset of the deck and its dillution solely depends on what deck your opponent is playing. I have two sb strategies with the deck actually: one with breakthrough in case i need speed and another without them in case speed is very negligible in the match-up. This deck at all times tries to keep itself balanced between winning fast and winning slow, with the pilot having absolute control on how to win with the deck. Once this deck tries to lean toward one, the other weakens. Like, right now, I'm really missing DR #3, I feel the deck has slowed down too much and I might trade-in 4th ghast for 3rd DR just to see how it plays out.
About your deck list. It looks solid. Given how you play the deck I might take-out either 1 Ichorid for the 14th land. Don't you find yourself looking for it at times. Like when you have a breakthrough hand and you have 2 Ichorids and 1 land. Don't you think that hand would be better if the 2nd Ichorid would've been a 2nd land? -1 Paradise for a Dakmor Salvage just in case you have no Paradise in hand and you need that one last push. Plus, multiple paradises are horrible. Oh and a study to go to 60 cards. The math in keeping 60 cards helps make your dredges better. Otherwise, the rest of the deck is solid enough. :cool:
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
I never liked Dakmor Salvage at all and it seems like a lot of people are running it with quite a lot of success. I don't get it, the deck runs 14-15 lands and this thing fundamentally slows the deck down by at least a single turn, only dredges for 2, and doesn't really cast anything that isn't Imp or Therapy. I have had problems when running 15x lands and mulling into Colliseum as my only land in hand so I would not want to think about how much a single Wasteland against Salvage would slow you down. An opening hand like: Imp, Breakthrough, GGT, Study, Ichorid, Bridge, Dakmor could be SERIOUSLY affected by Daze while on the play or by a single wasteland, at which point, instead of having a permanent discard outlet you are now forced into the DDD plan which could have been avoided had you been playing Paradise or Citadel. And yes, I understand the synergy with Bloodghast but still, I could see maybe running 1 if you run a few Bloodghast but ... I still just hate the card and think it makes Dredge run a lot less smooth.
Regarding Breakthrough, you can run as many or as little as you want in the main, whatever works for your style of play. I found 3x to be the perfect number and I would certainly go down to 2x Breakthrough before I even began to think about playing any less than 4x Careful Study. CS is just to good in the deck not to play as it plays numerous important roles but mainly finding additional lands and SB cards.
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
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Originally Posted by
Pulp_Fiction
...I have had problems when running 15x lands and mulling into Colliseum as my only land...
Getting stuck with CC as your only land has nothing to do with the fact that your running 4 of them in a 15 land build. I'm assuming this leaves you with 11 rainbow or at least black mana producing lands - no less than 14 or 13 land builds.
I agree with you on the Breakthroughs though, I have only 1 one in my MB and I would cut it for a 5th Careful Study in a heartbeat. Actually, I would prefer a 5th Coliseum to Breakthrough.
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
I'm pretty sure cutting any number of Breakthrough or Careful Study is bad, considering the amount of draw you have affects the ratios of how often you see every other card in your deck.
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Breakthrough is the strongest spell g1 not running 4 can only hurts your bad MU's where you need the speed, these MU you don't sided them out.
ie. combo,mirror,43.dec, any thing with leyline as its only hate, prison decks.
These match ups are greatly swayed towards who ever can explode first which breakthrough does better than any spell ever printed for us in the 1cc spot.
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
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Originally Posted by
jimirynk
Breakthrough is the strongest spell g1 not running 4 can only hurts your bad MU's where you need the speed, these MU you don't sided them out.
ie. combo,mirror,43.dec, any thing with leyline as its only hate, prison decks.
These match ups are greatly swayed towards who ever can explode first which breakthrough does better than any spell ever printed for us in the 1cc spot.
I agree a 100%. The thing is, around my meta, I rarely play against these decks. They are minimally present, about 1 43 land, prison, combo player I see once in a while; with and exception to mirror dredge, which have been slowly growing in number. @__@ But overall I've only played once (in my two years of playing my deck) against each of these decks before. So at some point, I can afford not tuning the deck up to go as fast as it can. I guess, this is one of the many things in the deck that are based on metagame calls.
OT: Yesterday I did some testing with the list I posted a few days back that had 4 Ghasts.
For reference here's my list:
Lands 14
3 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
2 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Dakmor Salvage
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Oboro, palace in the clouds
Sorcery 14
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
3 Breakthrough
Enchantments 4
4 Bridge from Below
Instant 2
2 Darkblast
Creatures 26
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
2 Tireless Tribe
3 Ichorid
3 Blooghast
I've tried incorporating a singleton Oboro as a 3rd Undiscovered Paradise that I still don't have. I had mixed results. The deck can still play explode at relatively the same speed as it did pre-bloodghast which is good, albeit at a slightly lower regularity. Because of this, I decided to cut the 4th bloodghast for a 3rd Dread Return. This is because I've noticed that 3 bloodghasts are relatively enough for the deck in both making returns easier to do and having a very solid aggro fall back plan. There was this one game against merfolk that I was able to amass more zombies than the tokens i had, which was awesome. I decided to put in the 3rd return to make the combo kill a wee bit more consistent. On the other hand, a singleton Oboro marginally did good yesterday. It's awesome that it can return itself making it immune to wasteland. The problem with him is that it only produces blue. With Oboro, 3 CC and 2 Salvage, i have 43% of my lands which are not rainbow, this slightly affects the mulligans with the deck, without a doubt Paradise are the optimum land in the Oboro slot. Hopefully, I get myself 2 more to make a playset.
Over-all, I still like how the deck plays out. I'll be doing some more testing tomorrow, I'll try to find other things to be polished in the list then.
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Testing wrong numbers bc you don't have the cards isn't testing..
Its a waste of time.
Proxy for optimal testing.
Post results.
Re: [Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
IMO, the great thing about Oboro is that it lets you cut the 2nd Dakmor, drawing either Paradise or Oboro is always going to be better than drawing Dakmor and the increased consistency in drawing your combo land probably makes up for the decreased consistency in Dredging it (plus it's not a 1 shot).
