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Hello!
I am a Goblin player from sweden who feels it would be fun to try on a different kind of legacy deck, and now this spring a couple of mates and I are going to prox ourselves some decks. Therefore i think i am going to try Ichorid and if it is fun, possibly buy the real deal. I have snooped around a bit and seen a couple of decks.
I was wondering if a kind couple of souls could drop their current decklists with and without LED and describe the differences?
i runQuote:
Originally Posted by Zörg
4 tireless tribe
4 putrid imp
4 narcomoeba
4 golgari grave troll
4 stinkweed imp
3 golgari thug
3 ichorid
1 sphinx of lost truths
1 flame kin zealot
4 bridge from below
4 breakthrough
3 dread return
3 careful study
3 cabal therapy
4 city of brass
4 cephalid coliseum
4 gemstone mine
3 tarnished citadel
4 chain of vapor
4 ancient grudge
3 ray of revelation
1 cabal therapy
1 ichorid
1 ancestor's chosen
1 felidar sovereign (or terastodon/woodfall primus/angel of despair/realm razor)
LED main would be imo (although i do not care for LED)
+4 LED
+2 deep analysis
+1 cabal therapy
+1 sphinx of lost truths
-4 tireless tribe
-1 careful study
-3 tarnished citadel
main differences are speed and resilience. LED 'can' win turn 1, but very weak to disruption, at that point u might as well play charbelchar
@Zörg
Well, I tried both lists, with and without Lion's Eye Diamond and have to say (although it makes me a little bit sad because of the LED-coolness-factor), that the LEDless-Version is better from my point of view. You should not care about game1 when you play Ichorid, because you have a very high winpercentage with both archetypes. You should better care about games 2 or eventually 3, and, like Sunsatzu wrote, in these games the LEDless Ichorid showes it's full strength. Especially the Manabase and the four additional permanent-discard-outlets (Tireless Tribes) help massively to handle opponents gravehate.
To the lists above: I would prefer not to play Dread Return-Targets Main in the LEDless-list, because I think you simply don't need them.
So, my 50cents: - FKZ, - Sphinx, -1Dread Return, +1 Ichorid, +1 Therapy(they are perfect), +1Study
If you choose to play with LED (again: you shouldn't): - 3tarnished, -1city, -4tribes, -3study,-Sphinx, + 4LED, +2 Deep Anal, +1 Eternal Witness, +1 Ichorid, +1 Therapy , +3 Unmask (you may choose to play Careful Study in the Unmask-slots).
Although i'm glad to see you run led, try to keep 1-2 Tribes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunsatzu
Yeah, it would be great to find a well chosen slot for 2 Tribes in the LED-Version, but which should it be? And a 12th land is needed I think... I mean, the core is clear:
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
4 Breakthrough
4 Lions Eye Diamond
2 Deep Analysis
4 Cabal Therapy
12 lands (4 coliseum, 8 rainbow)
4 bridge from below
3 golgari thug (eventually a 4th?)
4 Ichorid
2 Dread Return-Targets (I prefer FKZ and Witness)
3 Dread Return
In this list would be 2 free slots, should they be filled with tireless tribes? Is it good to cut the 4th Ichorid eventually?
Never. We need all our manaless effects. If you wish i can facilitate my deck list for inspiration:Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkJester
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
3 Dread Return
2 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Putrid Imp
2 Tireless Tribe
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Deep Analysis
4 Narcomoeba
SB: 1 Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 4 Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Unmask
SB: 1 Terastodon
SB: 3 Firestorm (here i'd like to run 2 Sadistic hypnotis + anything else but i'm noyt completely convinced)
How's that build working out for you so far, GoldenCid? It doesn't look too consistent on paper since you only have 8 draw effects (4BT, 3CC, 1DA). And if you're running a playset of LED, I think 2 DA would be better.
First of all i run 4 CC.Quote:
Originally Posted by SHABOOGS
At first i run 2 DA but i wanted to run 2 Tribes...so.
Edit: In real life i demands skills to choice the opoening hand. It's solid.
But my experience with the Ichorid-builds showed me that your opening-hands, especially postboard, are more solid and consistent in the ledlless version. I do not often have the problem to take a mulligan because there is no land in my opening seven (I know that you are able to keep some hands without land, but I think you should do this only preboard), and sometimes (more often than most people think) its just incredible to hardcast a narco or a thug...or even (very rare) a stinkweed imp. In Postboard-matches I don't want to have a situation in which my inconsistent deck forces me to mulligan more than once, because I have to fight the hate and mulligan for the right antihate.
I love LED-Dredge, but in my tournament environment most people know how to play against Ichorid, and you cannot rely on their mistakes anymore. So it is better for me to play a more consistent list.
By the way, Cid, just a question: why do you play undiscovered paradise?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkJester
In the second match the only thing that we really want to see in the opening hand is a land. If there is no side cards the mull will depend on the rest cards of your hand. Maybe you took a combo hand and you just await for what you oponent do. If they drop hate, you just draw until you can force him to crack his stuff (relic, crypt) or simply bounce / destroy (whatever) the hate and go off. That's why i still run unmask. You can do something without mana, delay your opo and draw for the land. Off course, this need skills.
On paradise. With the inclusion of tribe, ancient grudge and others, anycolor mana is vital. With this cards and no careful study or blue spells cephalid coliseum was a bit unconfortable depending on the opening 7. So i found Undiscovered Paradise a good option to get my 9th rainbow land. The drawback it has almost never bothers me.
Did you never had a situation in which you make your slowrolling-plan and your opponent just drops his goyfclock and you can simply nothing do against it? The worst imagination I have when playing dredge is that my opponent has more pressure on the board than me, and I can just hope to interact when I draw a land. You have only to interact when they drop hate, that's my point of view.Dredge simply needs to play the role of the agressor, if this role is lost, Ichorid loses. Slowrolling is a good plan postboard, but I think in this case a solid opening seven with outlet, dredger and land is the best opening hand you can keep (maybe with some antihatestuff). And this hand is easier to get with the LEDless-List.But it's nice to hear that you are successful with your LED-List, maybe it's called skill.
Why don't you play tarnished citadel instead of the paradise?
I'm playing the LEDless, no main DR target version with 15 lands. In order for me to get that last land in, I had to cut one slot, which was -1 Careful Study. I was wondering what is other people's opinion for the extra slot. The 3 choices for me was either: Careful Study, Ichord, or DR. Before the cut, I had 4 CS, 4 ichorid, 3 DR.
I don't see the need for 3 Dread Returns game1. It's nice to have I guess?
In addition of what i said above Undiscovered is does not deals damage. Tarnished is a lightning bolt. Yeah we are a combo deck but sometimes thing doesn't work as well as one wants. I prefer a drawback instead of damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkJester
If you run DR targets main, you should keep the 3 DR. If not, 2 is fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by lotriderm
And this deck works just as well with only 3 Ichorids. I know that it's the card that formerly gave the deck it's name, but still. It's a card you don't want to have in your opener and it happens very often that you have to feed one Ichorid to the other if running 4. 3 is enough for me.
I wouldn't cut CS if I can keep it. It's the weakest draw spell and the weakest discard outlet, that's true. But it's Both. And that makes it awesome. Aditionally, It finds anti hate post board.
And personally, I'd rather give my opponent a free bolt than not being able to cast my spells or activate Coliseum at turn 2. So for me, definitely Citadel >> Paradise.
I personally think 4 Ichorids is wrong because there are lots of matchups where I want to see one as soon as possible to put the pressure on. I board one out sometimes in slow matchups.
I based my post on the list you posted above (which only has 3 CC). Still, 9 draw effects seem inconsistent on paper compared to traditional LED/LEDless builds coz LED build run 10-14 draw effects and LEDless builds run 11-12 draw effects. I've tested both LED and LEDless and based on my experience, LED doesn't improve any post board games (except for storm) compared to LEDless builds. I like playing the LED lists because it is very explosive but during post board games where hate is a factor, I don't think being explosive at the cost of consistency is an advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
I'd only run Undiscovered Paradise over Tarnished Citadel if I'm running Bloodghasts. For the most part, the 3 damage from Citadel is irrelevant if you're winning on the 2nd or 3rd turn due to a draw effect which includes CC.
I totally agree. So lets try another question. I was wondering how I should prepare my sideboard for an unknown meta. At the moment it's kinda this:Quote:
Originally Posted by SHABOOGS
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Nature's Claim (a 5th out against Leyline)
1 Darkblast (a 5th out against Jailer...I am afraid of this guy)
4 Ancient Grudge
1 Dread Return ( if I board in a DR-Target, I run only 2DR Main)
2 Ray of Revelation (does it's job against enchantress)
1 Terastodon (see Ray of Revelation)
1 Ancenstors Chosen
I tried different kinds of SB's before, including Firestorms, Unmask, Leyline and so on but they never satisfied me cause I had to board to many cards.
I run a 15Land-LEDless version, with 4Ichorid, 11Dredgers, 4 Study, 4 Therapy, no DR-Targets Main... thanks for your help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SHABOOGS
If LED bothers you post board you have two options: Side it out or play LEDless. Remember that it run Eternal witness which duplicates any of my draw spells / CC.
@DarkJester: Did you try sadistic hypnotist?
4 Chain of Vapor, 4 Ancient Grudge and 2 Ray of Revelation is a ridiculous overlap.