I've really liked Blood Moon main as well. In addition to the random "oops, I win" situations as others have mentioned above, it really helps our Game 1 against Maverick.
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I've really liked Blood Moon main as well. In addition to the random "oops, I win" situations as others have mentioned above, it really helps our Game 1 against Maverick.
@Koby
I've considered siding BSC for the same reason, although Progenitus may be a better choice I just really want to use my BSC.
I would hate for BSC to end up getting lost in a Maze...Quote:
Originally Posted by rxavage
Hmm I am not happy, when I see the way all of you seem to go.
Lemme sum this up, from my point of view:
You include a 2of which can lead to a situational blow-out in some specific MUs. Fine.
But you cut one of the things, thats's been essential for this deck. Consistency. Our deck isn't the best because it's doing the strongest and unfairest moves. It's strong because it's fucking consistent. Why would I cut counters, creatures, tutors, cantrips for some situational blow-out in some specific MUs? If I would expect a meta filled with RUG, Maverick and BUG Control, fine I might play BloodMoon Mainboard, but not as an extra, more like a game-plan --> playing 3-4 of them, including a new mana-base. But is this really worth it? Look at the new UW Terminator-deck. A deck with roughly 8 basics laughs at our BloodMoon. (Same for the mirror)I'd love to see your guys faces when all your hand has is a BloodMoon and you land it vs the wrong deck. And due to the sacrificed consistency you are draw-going for a while. Do you want that? Do you really want that?
I used to get so irritated when my Sphinx of the Steel Wind would get mazed and my Inkwell Leviathin/Empyrial archangel getting chumped by a Scryb Ranger then Ooze comes along and starts feasting on my graveyard and to top it off in G2 Show&Tell into Knight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
More reasons to just run Progenitus? :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by rxavage
The deck isn't consistent. If it was it would be killing the format like Survival or putting up Mav/RUG numbers, because those decks are what I call consistent. Sneak suffers from having to have combo parts. The other decks? Not so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp802
Progenitus isn't even that good in the MAV match up unless he lands early or to a soft board. Seething Song is good here( as it is in all aggro Match Ups, like Affinity and Zoo), but you dont really want song in any other MU.
I'm willing to accept that matchups with KotR + Karakas + Force of Will will be nearly un-winnable. That's just too much disruption. But I'm not willing to throw away the match against Maverick which at best can throw down Thalia on the play and seriously mess up the tempo.
What are some suggested board plans against Maverick with Moons in the SB?
I'm thinking (using the list posted last page or two)
+3 Blood Moon
+2 Firespout
-3 Misdirection
-2 Spell Pierce
Yeah I'll board out Misdirections & Spell Pierce against Maverick. Those two cards are pretty dead against them. If you see them keep in StP, I might bring Misdirections back in since it's amazing when you Draw 7 in response to StP on Griselbrand and Misdirection it back to their Knight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
I'm not a huge fan of Firespout against Maverick just because it doesn't deal with Knight or Karakas, which is all we fundamentally care about in this matchup. Maybe Echoing Truth / bounce would be better here? Again, I would love to test Submerge out here as well since it allows you to play Show & Tell without fearing Knights against Maverick (but it could be too narrow a sideboard card otherwise).
That being said, I do love playing a deck that gets to pretty much ignore a T1 Mother :D
Firespout/Pyroclasm are essnetially there to ignore Mother. Each other spot removal is prone to an active Mom. With Firespout, it takes out either Mom and/or Knight (hopefully early enough to actually kill it). I've also found that Pridemage throws a wrench into the Sneak Attack plan. That's why I would prefer to have 'Spout.
I still like going with the One-shot kill method as it's much safer overall.
Good that the topic consistency was brought up. The deck is consistent in a way that it is relatively easy to get the 2 combo parts together because you run 8 of each. However that also leads naturally to situations where you draw 2-3 of 1 combo part. Especially hurts when drawing a bunch of creatures. (Btw. thats why I would never side out cantrips! Even thinking about going up to 10!). So it will happen (more regularly than with other decks) that you draw a bunch of dead cards after a mulligan, which feels like the deck beats itself. This is a good thing since the deck would be too good otherwise...
So with this info in mind I would not opt to go for 3 blood moon maindeck, since it adds "clunk" to the deck. If you insist on it because 40% of the meta is Esper, RUG, Maverick I would then cut 1 Sneak Attack, 1 Emrakul and 1 petal (go to 3) to remove some "clunk". The deck is a little slower then but the blood moon is counterbait and/or buys time. I would not remove blue cards to keep the count high for 3 Misdirection.
But even with 40% Esper, RUG, Maverick I would not play blood moon main, because I would so hate it drawing the moon instead of the 2nd combo piece and loosing to some Tier2 deck in Round 1. Preboard games are strong enough and we have a supergood postboard plan against the Tier decks, so no need to weaken the deck IMO.
Concerning Maverick:
Please tell me Philip did not play 50 postboard games against Maverick for nothing. :laugh: Forget Firespout and use needle. Needle is about 10 times better against Maverick plus it hits SD.top, Belcher, Grindstone, Liliana, Jace, SFM,...
OK went back up a few pages and read more closely. I'll try out Pithing Needles for this weekend. I suspect there are a lot of Maverick decks in the metagame, and a good number of RUG - hence why I would prefer Moons. Testing tonite vs Maverick.
WOW...you're not playing maverick?Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
That are just your insane draws. Actually it is the opposite. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Philipp802
I notice you don't run the white leyline either. Currently, I am running the white leyline, but I don't like the variance factor, either. Koby, suggestions? What do you run against discard and sac effects? You just expect not to see it or misdirect discard back at its caster?Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
But no one boards it in against GSZ. If you are boarding in GDC versus Maverick, please let me know what you board out. We already bring in Blood Moon and needle/bounce vs. Maverick, I can't see where we can create 4 more slots for GDC (nor do I think it is worth stopping only GSZ, maybe worth it against a Loyal Retainers build).Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Sssssh, Maverick is already on the decline. I'm not surprised to see Koby make the switch already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar of Shadow
Ontopic:
If you don't want Leyline against Discard there are just two (other) ways to chose from: you can either play dedicated countermagic against it; cards like Divert, Spell Pierce or Envelop come to mind.
The other option (borrowed from Solidarity) is to play more carddraw, first of all Meditate. Decks that employ a dedicated discard-suite usually can't take a lot of advantage from taking an extra turn, compared to the +2 CA Meditate provides. In case you've played Solidarity or High Tide, you surely know what I'm talking about. The only thing I'd be worried about is the higher amount of interdependence in this deck.
Also, another interesting option if you really want a counterspell to deal with discard is Outwit.
Probably bringing this to a tournament this weekend, thoughts?
16 combo pieces
4 Emrakul (4/4)
4 Griselbrand (3/4)
4 Show (4/4)
4 Sneak (4/4)
11 counters
4 Force (4/4)
2 Fluster (2/2)
2 Daze (2/2)
3 Pierce (3/3)
10 Cantrips
4 Ponder (4/4)
2 Preordain (2/2)
4 Brainstorm (4/4)
4 Mana
4 Petal (2/4)
19 lands
3 Island (3/3)
1 Mountain (1/1)
3 Volcanic (2/3)
3 Tomb (3/3)
2 City (0/2)
4 Tarn (4/4)
2 Misty (2/2)
1 Foothills (1/1)
SB:
3 Trinisphere (2/3)
3 Submerge (2/3)
3 Blood Moon (3/3)
3 Relic (3/3)
2 Echoing Truth (2/2)
1 Wipe Away (1/1)
Parenthesized numbers are just reference for me for what I need to find by this weekend...
The plan with GDC was when Blood Moon is maindeck. You have too many dead cards main with Misdirection so being in something that does SOMETHING. With moons or needles maindeck that doesnt make sense. Again its all about trimming dead weight for something that does relevant stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
I vasically chose to ignore the discard and combo matchup. We can generally counter relevant stuff va combo and try to Ponder/Brainstorm the key vards to setup Sneak Attack against discard strategies. Liliana might be a problem against this plan however.
Testing 4 Misidrection/3 daze/2 Intuition, 4 of everything else and 19 lands with 3 Volcanic Island/5 Sol/8 fetch. The Dazes could be Pierce or REBS even though I've never liked more than 2 REB if main. The free cost of Daze often comes up after Grisel hits play. I think I may want more Sol Lands now will have to cram sessions in.
Misdirect is like FoW 5 through 8 for resolving Sneak/Show/FoW. Also it does things to StP/Diabolic Edict/Seize/Hymn/IoK. Card disadvantage or Blue count(28?) is not an issue. Only one spell has to resolve.
Grisel is the only thing that matters any longer. Because of 7 power lifegaining Bargain with wings I feel no remorse slamming it down against Jace or Karakas to draw 7 for 7 life and 3/5 mana. It is a upgrade on every enabler over the previous slot of Progenitus and often is the first thing I want to put into play. Usually drawing 7 will get Sneak Attack or more counters if Sneak resolved.
I dont know why Dream halls or Hive is playing another creature. I havent tested that yet, but I did see some interesting things against those decks. Most importantly Flying Bargain allows the deck to keep in some number of SnT against Hive Mind and Dream Halls. Before now they would be relegated to SB because Dream and Hive were better off SnT, although I think this is only better vs Dream Halls since Hive can copy your 6 counters drawn and still win off of Pacts. Careful play with daze and Petals can off set this. It also outraces Prog in a head to head.
For the actual mirror I suggest Cliques. Through The Breach is also great and SDTop is an absolute game winner here.
Edit: Problematic cards like Needle/Revoker/MMage/Humility/Bridge/Karakas/Jace are all shuffled by Chaos Warp which might be better than E Truth. Needle and Revoker off of SnT will let the player see and name whatever hit play (Sneak/Grisel).