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Mav getting more dominant is probably the best thing that could happen to this deck, except that combo would probably start picking up in popularity as a result. I don't think I've ever lost a round against Maverick, regardless of my particular build, and Cavern isn't going to change that matchup in the slightest.
I agree with everything you just said, except I don't think this is best plan. We should be making our boards to improve the combo matchups. Mav is already really hard to lose to, and if they start lowing their basic count to run caverns, it will be even easier. However, if less blue based control decks show up (or at least make it past the first few rounds) we will have to worry more about combo than UW control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
I've been testing both Qweerios' 4 Liliana GB with maindeck duress instead of darkblast, and the scg GBw with 3 liliana, 3 top, and 1 vindicate. took out the recurring nightmare, dismember 1 thrun. Here are my thoughts, though they are kind of scattered.
I really can't decide which one I want to build.
Sun titan into deed is great, but it can be difficult to get to ww.
STP is nice since the rest of our removal is sorcery speed, but innocent blooding an emrakul is really satisfying.
I've found that the mana planning is much more delicate in the GBw version, since you need WW, BB and GG fairly early, and with 21 lands and only 5 duals, it can be tricky. Not impossible, mind you, but with GB you have a lot less mana management to worry about over the course of a tournament.
Wheel of sun and moon is terrible if you can't interact with dredge's removal. Leyline is similar against storm/high tide, however it can at least slow them down a bit.
Can't think of anything else right now. Anyone else try both?
I was playing Nic Fit quite long, but still had same issue - UW/UWB and hard controls, mostly they was running a lot of basics, more over they have better library manipulation and a lot of counterspells and exiling removal (stp/pte), more over Thrun stopped beeing an option since they started running black splash for lingering souls - flying was always an issue in nic fit, also liliana and batterskull was hard to deal with.
So I spend a lot of time to fix the build on current meta:
-RUG Tempo
-Maverick
-UW/b Stoneblade
those decks are actually 60% or even more of the field, combo decks aren't too present because of Blade and Tempo decks which are very hard MU for them.
Nic Fit looks very good since it can deal with RUGs and Mavericks, only hard MU was Stoneblade. So I started to change list.
Testing on Cockatrice then, on BoM:Trials
here is the list:
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Primeval Titan
4 Pernicious Deed
2 All Is Dust
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Eternal Witness
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Karn Liberated
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
//SB
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Innocent Blood
3 Duress
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
2 Extirpate
Here are the comments:
Cloudpost ?! Yes, connected with Veteran Explorer ramp is actually be fastest ramp in legacy. Casting 7cmc spells in turn 3 isn't a problem.
But how It helps ? Answer is easy - more removal for plainswalkers, and uncounterable wincon which leads to easy win.
Answers for Plainswalkers:
2 Maelstorm Pulse
3 Karn Liberated
2 All is Dust
In this deck Karn is like a much better Liliana - when it comes into play its mostly game, even more its almost unbeatable after first ability loyality counters are 10, exiling cards from opponent hand or just vindicate other plainswalkers is actually very handy.
Uncounterable package:
12 posts
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Kozilek
1 Emrakul
Easy deal.
But how this deck can work ?
Ok lets look at manacurve and tools to play:
Early game -Opening hand: (Turn 1-2)
-Cloudpost ramp + (Veteran Explorer/GSZ - Cabal Therapy) is enough stable to ramp to 6-7 mana, with little disruption.
Middle game:(Turn 3-4)
- Removal - 4 Pernicous Deed is a bane of all Green Based Decks, kills also manlands Equipments, probably all what can be dangerous, plainswalkers was describe upper, 2 All is dust its just so good specially that it kills all Geists, Thruns, everything - blank only vs affinity where deed is one-side apocalypse.
Late game:(+5 sometimes earlier)
just play (Primeval Titans/GSZ for them/Karns) if any of them resolve its game. You searching of Eye of Ugin/more cloudposts then cast Kozilek/Emrakul
Infinity turn loop - Emrakul + Eye of Ugin + Phyrexian Tower with 20 mana avaible - you will see its not so hard. - You will think its winmore ? Maybe but its uncounterable.
-But isn't fast aggro just kill you ?
For hell no, there are some nice add which most of people forgeting - Glimmerpost, those tiny lands gives you such a huge life that you can race turn 1 progenitus from S&T without any removal with them, can your deck do that ?
How it works - mostly resolved Primeval Titan is an engine - even without any of Posts in play you pick up 2 glimmerposts +4 life, them each gives you without playing anything else +8, +16 +32 life thats mostly enough for any aggro.
- Ok then, so what you do under turn 1 blood moon scoop - you don't have FoWs ? Imperial Painter is still a real deck which can be painful for current meta with so many dual lands.
Ok but how he wins ? Mill me ? With 2 Eldrazi's ? Nope, more over resolved Veteran is an easy out from blood moon, more over Pernicous Deed is universal removal for all time of those things.
Sounds like unbeatable deck so whats your bad MU:
- Simple -Fast Combo you have only MD disrupt in form of Cabal Therapies for combo.
- Stifles Explorer can be also painful if bad hand keeping.
- Recurred wastelands.
So based on those SB contains cheap removal in form of Innocent Blood which can also trigger Explorer.
Duress as additional discard since it also useful vs Price of Progress
Lands Toolbox - Karakas and Bojuka (you could easy play it MD)
Surgical Extraction/Extripate split to exile problematic combo elements.
This deck isn't so simple to play, playing right lands in correct order is one of the most difficult thing which I learned. Also playing Therapies with good naming - any experience player turn cabal therapies into hymn to Tourach's even after brainstorm.
Another difficult thing is using Vesuva's copy effects bring a lot of options like multiple Bojuka Bogs or instant wasteland vs problematic legendary lands like Karakas with Clique.
Some simple MU which require more experince with a deck:
-Dredge - I was thinking to improve this MU, with Scavenging Ooze but after some testing I found its not needed - really. Everything what you need is good timed Extraction/Extripate with ramping Titan with some Pulse/Deed slow down. Don't forgot that Explorer burn Bridges. Bojuka can be multiple copied by Vesuvas. Life total can be quick restock with glimmerposts.
-S&T - Sneak Attack is real problem - be careful with Explorer, use point discard to took down what you need. Remember about shuffling effect to dodge brainstorms hiding nuts on top. If its first game and opponent doesn't know what you playing he will make mistake with S&T for sure. SB Karakas is a easy tech for ramapaging Emrakuls. Use Extraction and Extripate to blank Intuition, if you remove Sneak attack - its win. Note that you can kill Emrakul with Karn, and Progenitus with Deed for 10 (it really happens). You can fix this MU by using Diabolic Edicts instead of some Innocent Blood.
-ANT/TES/Doomsday/Belcher
Those are hard MU, since turn 1 kill can occur (Mindbreak Traps can resolve this - use them if your meta is full of them) same strategy as vs most combo's - point discard + exctraction, you can also defend vs Empty the Warrens plan by Deed/Pulse. Don't worry about ramping them after you sculpt their hand, you will win faster then they recover.
-Reanimator
Not so easy MU as it looks (probably Ooze would gives an edge - run him if you except reanimators) Extripates split if mostly for this MU, sb plan with S&T isn't good for him, remember that you can't be locked with Iona - All is dust/GSZ for G Titan->Karakas. Glimmerposts gives you time.
Deck gives a lot of fun, almost like playing commander in other world. First time after I came to BoM:Trial everyone except Maverick (Played it since 2010 Dec, also wrote Primer which is in DTB) when one of the mate - Maciej Pasek (Top8 GP Amsterdam) saw my hand - he ask wtf is this ?! Then I goes:
Game one GBW Nic Fit:
2-0 - he dies by rampaging Emrakul with infinity turns
Game two Imperial Painter:
2-0 he couldn't do anything blow up deed then Titan..
Game three GW Maverick:
2-0 Deed, All is Dust, All is Dust and gg doing 5 for 1, 2 for 1, then 2 for 1 is what all wants.
Game four 1-land Belcher:
2-0 - he had one window - turn 0 (he win the roll), the deosn't go off - he loses. Had answer for tokens, then game 2 again he didnt went turn 0 lose for him - that MU was very stresful.
Topped.
Split cash.
Comments welcome,
Fatal.
P.S: Why I don't run Liliana ? Karn is just better..
If you run 12 post and Primeval titans, than you can cut the explorer/therapy suite because getting two basics out of it pails in comparison to ramp with 12 post.
So if I get this right, when all the stars align, this deck is good?
Also, how do you beat pox?
I tried this deck out online and it doesn't really do anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperchord24
You can't replace your lands at instant speed against a wasteland like turbo eldrazi. Unless you already have 7 land, GSZ can only search up veteran explorer, with is useless without a sac outlet, or eternal witness.
I'm not saying it's bad or anything, but it takes a whole lot of "if's" for it to work properly.
@hyperchord24
Key is to run both Explorer and Cloudpost this will generate much more mana, and more over you fetch basics color mana which avoid screw from opponent wasteland which was always problem in 12Post, also running Deeds helps with aggro.
@Qweerios
Veteran Explorer this little dude is probably the best against pox, Karn is unbeatable for them.
@Star|Scream
Crop Rotation is not too good card - its card disadvantage, an if countered do always 2 for 1, sure its useful vs wasteland but its not needed in this build you don't loses to wasteland thanks to explorer which fetch basics.
That's why you running Cabal Therapies, Tower and Deeds - all of them can be used as sac outlet.
How aggressively do you mulligan into veteran explorer and a sac outlet? Would you keep a hand with a veteran explorer but no sac outlets and no cloudposts?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
Will you sandbag a gsz until you can get a primeval or will you immediately go for the explorer?
Here are the answers:
If you have veteran explorer or GSZ with decent lands its mostly keep able, specially with SDT even without sac outlet. But its very depends on vs what you playing.
Don't put on explorer if you don't know what is he playing (mostly on play). any deck with stp will plow him. Slow roll lands control the board with deed.
about keeping GSZ it depends on your hand, and your land count, also board presence of opponent.
Here are some tips:
- If you have 4 or less and have sac outlet go on with explorer,
- If you have 4 or less and don't have sac outlet and play vs nonwhite deck go on with explorer
- If you have 4 and don't have sac outlet and play vs deck with stp go on with witness if something good is in gy.
-If you have less then 4 lands and don't have sac outlet and play vs with stp wait if you don't have to.
Same with cabal therapy if you don't know vs what playing turn 1 blind therapy is good only if you have explorer/GSZ on hand.
A player top 8'd at the scg tourny today with Nic Fit. He was up vs. Hive mind that had a mildly dubious play g3 where he ponders into Hive Mind for the win then gets a free shuffle effect for putting his fetch back into his deck from a previous Emrakul trigger. I am pretty sure from the video he drew Hive Mind off the ponder.
The play was legit-here is what happened:
Emrakul(s) hits the GY on the Nic Fit player's turn after a successfully named Cabal Therapy. Nic Fit player Extirpates Emrakul with the shuffle trigger on the stack, everythig resolves but they forget in the extraction hoopla to shuffle the Hive Mind player's GY, which was a lone Misty Rainforest.
The Hive Mind player starts his turn, draws and plays Ponder. Finds Hive Mind in the top three and chooses not to shuffle, then draws the top card. The table judge (all around awesome guy, btw) notices the issue with the unshuffled Misty Rainforest, then sets aside the top two cards of the library (known from the Ponder to the HM player) and shuffles the Misty back in.
No shenanigans. The Nic Fit player lost there because he went for the double-card therapy instead of the much bigger threat (Pact of the Titan). No reason not to just Therapy out the Pact and pass turn, you have a Top and are more likely to find edict effects in your deck (likely 3-5 at that point) vs. answers to Pact triggers (exactly zero).
When I tried the deck a while back that was my exact issue. Having Veteran Explorer with no sac outlet. Particularly annoying if your opponent is not playing an aggro deck and not attacking. I tried to add a few innocent bloods to the deck but then this seemed to dilute its power so I ended up dropping the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
I very, very rarely have this issue with my current list. I've upped to 2x Phyrexian Tower, it's worth it, and with 4x cabal therapy 3-4x innocent blood's and 2x tower's / other spot removal, it works out pretty consistently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nizmox
I've moved much towards Qweerios' list, I'm only running 3x Liliana however, so it's up in the air as to what is going in that spot.
Innocent blood also serves as sweet early game removal vs most decks.
The ponder still ended having one less brick in his deck because the land was not in his deck at the time of pondering into the Hive Mind. Obviously this is a very small percentage change and probably would not have changed the outcome of the game, but Hive Mind did benefit from it.Quote:
Originally Posted by routlaw
Hi guys, Iīm observing this thread for a long time and I want to reward for that somehow.
I tried Qweerios build with few minor changes on the last Saturday legacy tournament at our store. About 50 players came to fight for money+ byes on the Bazaar of Moxen.
Creatures (11)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Kodama of the North Tree
1 Primeval Titan
Instant/Sorcery (15)
2 Darkblast
2 Innocent Blood
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Primal Command*
Artifact/Enchantment (6)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
Planeswalkers (6)
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Lands (22)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Treetop Village
3 Bayou
3 Swamp
4 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
Sideboard (15)
1 Tarmogoyf *
4 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Extirpate
2 Massacre *
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Obstinate Baloth
Here my thoughts: Firstly I really like qweerios build, 4x Liliana and Kodama are really good.
I was forced to do few changes in decklist because i havenīt got the 2nd Garruk and damnations.
I ended after 6 rounds with 2-2-2
I played against: R1 Aggro-Loam 1:1 (G3 I needed one more turn with thrun, he ended with 4 life.)
R2 High Tide 2:1 (Discard and extirpates were really helpful)
R3 Esper Blade 0:2 (G1 I miscounted and hadnīt mana for zenithing and activating wickerbough for his batterskull when he was tapped, It costed me game afterwards)
R4 Uw tempo 1:2 (G3 another mistake from my side, I played on turn 1 explorer while i had phyr. tower in hand, he punished me with StP and then i was too slow for his serra avengers and geist of sant traft)
R5 Show and Tell 2:1 ( My deck didnīt wanted to lose against him because he gave me what i exactly needed)
R6 W weenie with armageddon 1:1 (G3 I needed one more turn again...)
Con: I really like Massacre, it letīs you lock the game with liliana very easy. I never wanted damnation instead of it.
Primal Command is bad, I just wanted to try it but even hermit would be better.
Kodama is much better than der. hermit. 4x Liliana allows you do some nice locks and treetops with prim. titan are pretty nice.
Deck is hard to play in my opininon, It doesnīt forgive some mistakes. On the other hand itīs very funny and letīs you play some really uncommon cards(Kodama wtf? I heard all the time). Also as arianhoard sayed "Itīs a Nietzche deck" you canīt play it in many many ways and it depends on your play style (I wonder that no one tired the Fact or Fiction version, on mws it seemed very good)
Is it only me or others have issues with draws in G3 with Nic Fit? I want to try 1-2 Tombstalkers to get some tempo because i hate to have a draw in Round 1 of the tournament... (I played abyssal build before and Percy granted fast clock if they hadnīt ansewer for him).
Thats all folks.
Zoda
My problem has been that they have, literally, had an answer to Percy 100% of the time. I think I've only won 1 or 2 games with him out of probably closing in on 70-80 games. He always eats a plow to the face, or a counterspell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoda123
Why does a Savannah make Massacre better?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexeezay
ah nvm sorry
@Hymn to Tourach: Random discard isn't good enough. Though it's a 2-for-1, pin point targeted discard is going to always be better in match ups where you need it (i.e. Storm, Hive Mind etc.) It really helps with Cabal Therapy when they reveal there entire hand. Nothing's worse than Hymning someone only to get land, land, then proceed to lose next turn.