Your second guess is correct for exactly this reason it'll get countered.
It wouldn't even matter if somehow (second Phantasmagorian) your Troll ends up in your graveyard again (even while Surgical is on the stack) since it's a "new" card.
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Your second guess is correct for exactly this reason it'll get countered.
It wouldn't even matter if somehow (second Phantasmagorian) your Troll ends up in your graveyard again (even while Surgical is on the stack) since it's a "new" card.
The Extraction is "countered." The Troll you dredged is now back in your hand and independent of any other Trolls in the graveyard. That Troll was specifically targeted, not the "new" one.
Ok cool. That's what I thought. Thanks guys.
While we're on the topic of Phantasmagorian, it's worth noting that it's not always correct to discard Phantasmagorian turn 1 even if you can, because it means you can't DDD the following turn. For example:
- you have only one dredger in your opening hand. If you discard Phantasmagorian first, use it to discard your dredger, and don't dredge into a second dredger, then you might be locked out of discarding your sole dredger for a few turns.
- you don't have any cards in hand that you particularly want to be able to get into the graveyard right away (eg Nether Shadow/Ichorid.) Discarding a dredger turn 1 and Phantasmagorian turn 2 allows you to discard multiple creatures on top of any Nether Shadows that your first dredge happens to reveal.
- you are playing against Tormod's Crypt-type hate (or might be)
ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by rektareloaded
I'm gonna give your list a try.
I still love Probe in the list, especially cos I'm not that clued up with a lot of typical Legacy decklists yet - I'm not too accurate with Therapies.
But still not sure I dig Ghast & Dakmor compared to Arbor maindeck, due to the constriction it forces in the sideboard and other factors.
I'll give it another go, see how I go.
Can I ask you though - how do you sideboard against graveyard hate? What do you take out/put in against decks running RiP, LotV, T-Crypt etc etc. that can nuke your yard?
Do you ever end up with all 8 of Dakmor & Arbor in the main for any matchups?
I'm loving this interaction talk RE: Phantasmagorian.
Cheers boys.:wink:
About phantasmagorian :
Thanks for the answer
I gave it some thouhht and i nerd to add a little clarification
I guess the main reason to respond to phantasm activation with wraith and then activating it again is to dump the same dredger twice
Phantasm activation : 3 cards in gy with a dredger say troll, resolution on the stack
Wraith activation, pass : resolution dredging and getting back the troll
Phantasm activation : 3 cards in gy including the same troll
Pass : 2 phantasm activation resolves (first fizzles)
Is that it?
Thats it - which can all be done at instant speed. This also gets around Surgical Extraction-type effects, apart from Extripate.Quote:
Originally Posted by joretapo
if i think they got lots of enchantment and artifact hate for me i usually sideout 12 cards. specially decks w/ white and black color, who can run RIP and other annoying hates (UW miracles, junk, maverick, enchantress etc)Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
-4 dakmor salvage
-4 gitaxian probe
-4 bloodghast
+4 dryad arbor
+4 reverent silence
+2 natures claim
+1 forest
+1 verdant catacombs
hopefully it will also work for you .. :wink:
Silly question
I ve tried a non led mana dredge list yesterday and i found it slugish compared to the manaless version, i may habe been using it wrong but would like some thought about that
The rationale is that the mana version dilutes a lot the main strategy, ie your dredges are less powerfull. in mana dredge you often dredge a lot of useless junk into the gy mines/brass/breakthrough/ etc whereas in manaless each dredge is fuel :)
I guess i m doing it wrong
Small tourney report, I ran Hollywood's exact 75 once again at my other weekly LGS Legacy tourney last night (I'm lucky enough to have 2 a week close by). We only had 8 players, so just 3 rounds. This store tends to be a slightly lower calibre of players, aside from a couple.
Round 1 vs Keith playing Goblins:
Game 1 - I win the roll and put him on the play which immediately raises every red flag there is for Keith. He goes first turn Goblin Lackey. I draw, discard a Golgari Grave-Troll, Keith tries to act surprised, I pass turn. Keith drops another goblin dude and when he declares attack step I Contagion them both. Now Keith is actually surprised. :cool: He passes turn, I proceed to go absolutely crazy cycling a Street Wraith into an Ichorid and more dredgers and crush him in short order. NOTE: I do want to say, that blind cycle is a gamble. If you don't hit a dreger you've left yourself untapping without a dredger in the yard, not the best scenario. But I was pretty confident that I'd hit at least one, and I hit the money. I think that dredge was something like Ichorid, Bridge From Below, Stinkweed Imp, Shambling Shell, Narcomoeba and Nether Shadow. I don't think you could ask for much more there. I just wanted a single dredger and I got the house. In this case I started my turn, recurred the Nether Shadow, fed the Street Wraith to the Ichorid then dredged the Stinkweed Imp for my draw step. While I got crazy lucky on that, I don't advise the blind cycle for the faint of heart. Game one against Goblins, I went all in. You may not want to.
Game 2 - Not sure what to sb in, I'm not sure what sort of hate Keith is on. I play it safe, bring in my other two Sickening Shoals to deal with early Lackeys and figure worst case I'll go to game 3 and know what hate he has. Keith puts me on the play, gets an extra card and goes turn one Relic of Progenitus. Hmm, haven't actually ever had to play against that one. I tried my best at slow dredging in an effort to get him to pop the Relic. I had a decent yard at one point put he wasn't biting on popping it yet. I was holding 7 with 2 Grave-Trolls in hand in an effort to stay where I could recover quickly should he pop the Relic. I'm not real sure what the deal was but I wasn't able to really get going, he was able to play out lots of dudes, Mogg Fanatic kept my Bridge From Belows in check and I lost this one. By the time he popped the Relic I was too low on life to recover and the goblin horde went the distance.
Game 3 - Ok, so go back with the Shoals and bring in the Nature's Claims. Put Keith on the play, he goes turn one Lackey again. I do the DDD thing with a Grave-Troll, pass, wait for him to drop the next dude, Contagion the two of them. Unfortunately, somehow he was able to recover and I was never really able to get moving and he crushed me pretty quickly.
1-2 Matches=0-1
Round 2 vs Stephannie-Anne (no ide of the spelling there) playing U/B Fairies (yes, fairies):
Game 1 - I kind of feel dirty knowing this is basically a bye round. I put her on the play and muse on the fact that when I want to be playing first I can NEVER win a die roll yet every time I play this deck I win the die rolls. :confused: She drops a little fairie thing, not sure what it was. I DDD into Phantasmagorian and proceed to go nuts at the end of her turn, pitching a dredger, cycling two Street Wraiths and basically recurring two Nether Shadows and an Ichorid and dredging something like 17 cards by the time I had gotten through my draw step. From there I Dread Return Griselbrand into Flayer of the Hatebound into the worlds largest Golgari Grave-Troll. Moving on!
Game 2 - She has no sb so I choose to just leave it alone. She chooses to play and I pretty much do the same thing as game one.
2-0 Matches=1-1
Round 3 vs ??? (new kid, pretty young, didn't get his name) playing Infect:
Game 1 - I win that die roll again. :mad: Put him on the play, he goes turn one Forest, Glistener Elf. I DDD a dredger. He goes turn 2 Inkmoth Nexus and swings with the Elf. I take it and he pumps him with a Mutagenic Growth. I proceed to start cycling Street Wraiths and recurring Nether Shadows and Ichorids and strip his hand apart with a couple Cabal Therapys. His next turn he activates the Nexus, in response I Contagion his two guys. I figure I'll give up a Bridge here to clear his board of Infect guys. I pummel him in short order with a pretty big Zombie horde.
Game 2 - He chooses to play first and goes turn one Forest, Glistener Elf again. I proceed to DDD into Phantasmagorian and go absolutely nuts at the end of his next turn after taking 3 infect from a pumped Elf. From that point on it was never really a game as I Dread Returned Griselbrand into Flayer of the Hatebound into the worlds second largest Golgari Grave-Troll. :cool:
2-0 Matches=2-1
I finished up 4th, one spot out of the prizes. The winner was Paul playing Painter/Stone. Second was the Keith and his Goblins that pummeled me. Third was ??? playing Reanimator.
Final Thoughts -
I find that I really like this deck. It's oddly entertaining when your opponents have no real idea how your deck works or exactly what's going on. I think the list is pretty amazing. I'm still unsure of sideboarding. I tend to have a good idea of what I need out of the board, but still no idea what to take out of the maindeck.
Props:
- Keith for his win over me. It was a good match and he played well.
- Paul for dragging out the old Grindstones. :cool:
Slops:
- Me for losing to Goblins post board. That shouldn't have happened. I don't know why but this is the problem I've had with this deck. I can crush game 1 and then the matches I lose are due to losing both sb games.
- Me for not really knowing what went wrong in the Goblin matchup. I thought I was in a good position game 3 but somehow he battled through it. I still don't know what I could have done different that would have helped.
- Me for not having a firm handle on the proper slow-dredge when facing that Relic. I thought I was doing ok, not going crazy but still building a decent yard and recurring some threats while holding stuff to recover fairly quickly. Somehow I wasn't able to con him into popping the Relic early enough. I'm still not sure how to apply the right amount of dredging/threats without going so crazy you run out of deck/threats to recover. Maybe Keith just knew what he was doing, but I think it was me that didn't do it right. I don't know.
Cheers.Quote:
Originally Posted by rektareloaded
Just curious here;
You're running an extra dredger than Hollywoods' list (15 vs 16), but the dredger you've chosen in Dakmor (vs Shell) gets boarded out when you experience hate.
How do you find that effects your play?
Seeing as how with Hollywoods' list (I run a similar list, although lately I've been swapping creature hate for Probe when I'm feeling brave) doesn't need to drop it's dredger's for game2 and 3. For game2 & 3 I find it stays fairly consistent.
Do you find that boarding out a quarter of your dredgers hurts your consistency?
And do you find that you're struggling to find targets for Ichorid?
Invitational Qualifier today.
Updates throughout the day!
No and No. :tongue: people who use to play mana dredge before got only 12-13 dredgers in the deck (13 if you include darkblast) and we're fine with that. you only need 1 dredger to show up to start the party. theres alot of black creature cards that ichorid can eat. thugs, SW, imp, phantasmagorian (coz sometimes you only need 1 to show up in the yard for the rest of the round). 16 black creature cards not including ichorid, extra grisel and shadows.Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
i always keep this mindset of "hates are only effective if they were able to draw it" . :smile:
Beat Deadguy, 2-0 (1-0).
Hello folks, played today with 56 other players for some duals and other stuff.
For anyone interested:
M1 vs NicFit
Both games he has t2 Ooze, t3 Explorer which renders my Ichorids helpless (could've attacked with 2 for some turns but he would get to much mana for his Ooze). Never got removal for the Ooze nor Dread Return/Bridges the few times he tapped out..
0-1
M2 Mirror
G1 I have 3 Street Wraiths..
G2 His first dredges get's him 3 Bridges, mine a Narcamoeba & a Therapy, getting Griselbrand t3
1-1
M3 Goblins
G1 I take a mulligan (had no Dredger and would've not drawn one in the next few turns..his shuffling technik sucks hard for me everytime ;P. Anyway he gets some gas online and I die a few turns later.
(By this time I had no Bridge in all 5 games..)
G2 Bridges are coming and Zombies overwhelm him.
G3 Griselbrand t3.
M4 Show N Tell
G1 He draws lands and gets beaten down by Ichorids.
G2 He has t2 Show n Tell -> Omniscience -> Emrakul + Burning Wish
G3 I've got the t2 kill.
M5 Goblins
G1 He's dead t3.
G2 .. Now this did sucked..he mulled to 5 and kept a no lander.. draws one, plays Relic.
I discard my Troll (was my only Dredger at this time). He wants to remove it, I cycle Street Wraight, he pops relic.
We play draw go for a while.. he gets a second Relic.. which I fight with Phantasmagorian -> active to discard stuff, giving him 3 turns..but what you gonna do? .. He gets stuff online but slowly.. I manage to get back into the game till he draws his 3rd Relic.. I had no time to fight this one..
G3 He starts with Lackey, I discard a Troll and kill his lackey..unfortunaly I did not hit a Dredger & had to kill one Warchief..while he plays more Warchiefs, Lackeys & Piledriver..
=(
M6 Merfolk
G1 He has nothing but lands..
G2 He got some Lords but I chump, creating a giant horde of Zombies which he can't answer.
Played with Noxious Revival in the Sideboard, again did not liked it..probably going to take it out next time.
Standard Hollywoods list because it's great. ;P
Drew (!) against Nic Fit (1-0-1).
Beat Esper 2-0 (2-0-1).
3-0-1 and a lock into Top Eight. Beat Nic Fit 2-0.
Edit: Top 4'ed. Lost to Junk in three close games. I won game one. Game two I stripped his hand to nothing and he ripped his one-of Bog. Then Shaman. Then Shaman. Won a set of Scrublands.
wow i wish we have those kind of prizes her in our local... nice finish though. looking for your tournament reportQuote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Yo Hollywood what would you board out for these in general:
4 Rev Silence
2 Nature's Claim
2 Verdant
1 Forest
If specifics are applied to certain matchups how much do they differ?