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To each their own but in the stoneblade matchup tribe is the weakest link, zombies block equipment guys well enough if the cost is clear breakthrough just gets there, siding them all out is a mistake. In a lot of matches I view firestorm and tribe as interchanable.
On the dr target Iona did feel win more a lot of the time but when she mattered she won me the game, I keep switching my dr target between her and angel of despair I still haven't decided which one is better overall in the main.
I played in a small tournament yesterday and ended 2-2, missing the top 4 split. My losts were to Merfolk and Dark Depths combo, while I beat MUC and Burn.
Rd1 vs. Merfolk
Game one, he wins the roll and plays Vial. I start with Therapy for Force, but see MM. I have an PImp and Tribe, but only one rainbow land so I don't stick a guy until turn three and start dredging turn four. I think my hand was just too slow to keep against Merfolk, and I end up losing with him at 4 life with 4 lords. Plus, if he had Wasteland then I would have lost even quicker.
+4 Firestorm, +1 Ichorid
-4 Breakthrough, -1 Tireless Tribe
Game two, I get a good hand with Study, Imp, Coliseum, GGT, lands. I dredge for a while, get some Ichorids and sandbag Coliseum until after he sacs a Cursecatcher to blow up my one Bridge. Then I win with Ichorid and Zombie beats.
Game three, he goes turn one Relic. I kept a DDD hand. I try to draw into something that won't make me auto-lose to Relic, but it doesn't happen. Relic easily beats me. So my conclusion is DDD isn't fast enough against Merfolk and lesson learned.
Rd2 vs. Dark Depths combo
Game one, I win the roll and start with Therapy for Force. I see Hexmage, Living Wish, Dark Confidant, Swords, Wasteland, and two fetch :cry:. After that he Wastes my mana source and I'm left with only Coliseum in hand. I lay it down and cast Careful Study hoping to find another land, but no luck. I can't cast my spells and have to wait to DDD and hope to flip a Narco to get a combo piece with Therapy. It doesn't happen and I lose game one.
+1 Ichorid, +1 Elesh Norn, +1 Dread Return
-2 Breakthrough, -1 Careful Study
Game two, I go turn one Imp and get to Dredge 6 each turn of the game. He gets a Hexmage, but I Therapy away the Living Wish and Crop Rotation in the same turn he taps out for the Vampire. From there it was all Ichorid and I DR Elesh Norn for style.
Game three, he gets a good start and I kept a hand without Therapy (dumb). I lose to a 20/20 legendary, trampling flyer. But I didn't have the chance to go broken with a draw spell all match here, which was pretty unlucky.
Rd3 vs. MUC
Game one, I resolve a PImp and Breakthrough by turn 2. Way to go MUC.
-1 Breakthrough
+1 Ichorid
Game two, I go on the DDD plan and grind him out with Ichorids. The only spell I cast was a Careful Study to dredge twice, and otherwise I played it slow and still won easily. I guess losing your first two matches gives gives you an easy round three.
Rd4 vs. Burn
Game one, I win the roll and start with Tribe. He starts with Goblin Guide, which I block all day, but it never gives me a land. He topdecks a Lavamancer after I go off with Coliseum and blows up his Guide to kill three Bridges. I try to grind him out with Ichorids, but they're not fast enough and I die with him on two life.
+1 Ancestor's Chosen, +1 Elesh Norn, +1 Dread Return
-2 Cabal Therapy, -1 Ichorid
Game two was a blowout. I play Tribe again and Breakthrough turn two. He tries to recover, but I reanimate Chosen and gain 27 life to put the game out of reach.
Game three was similar except I reanimated Elesh Norn. I had to sac a Bridge, but removing his Lavamancers for the rest of the game was amazing. I beat him down the way Dredge does afterwards with everyone +2/+2 bigger.
I'm not very happy with my finish, but it hasn't deterred me from the deck at all. I know I'm still learning the ins and outs of it, so I'll stick it out and try again next month. I used this list:
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
3 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Coliseum
With this board:
4 Firestorm
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Winds of Change
1 Ichorid
1 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Ancestor's Chosen
I didn't use The Chains or Winds all day though. I'd leave the Winds in if you have combo in your meta. I played a few games after the tournament with them in, and they can be more busted than Breakthrough. I also know that next month a lot of people will be packing Leylines, so I need an answer to those. In a metagame of 30 or fewer people, it isn't a problem you can just ignore as you're bound to encounter them.
A mod can delete this post.
what deck winds of change will be put in?
You don't put Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite against Merfolks?? What a mistake dude!Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
Combo decks or anything that can race you. It acts as Breakthrough 5-7 and usually replaces the Ichorids as they're too slow.Quote:
Originally Posted by kabards
I'm not sold on bringing in DR targets against Merfolk. DR is very difficult to resolve against that deck. Between Cursecatcher, Daze, and Force you need a lot of things to go right for it to work. I can always try it again later, Elesh Norn is not coming out of the board anytime soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by mooN_MTG
What an empty statement, you don't give any reasons, and don't even consider his reasons, to state why it is a mistake.Quote:
Originally Posted by mooN_MTG
I find Iona to be a better DR target against Merfolks than Elesh, and among the reasons for such, it includes:
- Is able to defend against active Coralhelm
- Cannot be bounced
- Cannot be copied
- Better Stand-alone clock with protection for possible zombies
Besides, there are reasons to believe DR targets makes your deck even worse against Merfolks, since the usual attriction is between counters and your spells trying to discard/accelerate into graveyard stuff. If you cut these spells, or graveyard stuff, for DR, you are cutting your chances of winning the war against their counters. So I find Elesh norn to be winmore.
On the other hand, siding out Breakthroughs for Firestorms is not what I usually would do as well... but this is debatable, since I run Firestorms maindeck.
I never lose against Merfolk!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui
I never lose against Merfolk!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui
Even if so, which I doubt, unless you are playing against some real bad merfolk players given the dificulty of the match, you never stated this in your last message, which still makes it an empty statement. Learn to reason your ideas, maybe then someone will consider them.Quote:
Originally Posted by mooN_MTG
This is a biiiig thread so apologies if this has been brought up before, but i'm curious if anyone has tried to adapt the Vintage plan of Sun Titans and Bloodghasts, to legacy dredge?
Obviously we don't have Bazaar to make that quite as nutty, but i was thinking maybe something like whirlpool rider to chain a bunch of dredging and sun titans. Whirlpool Rider on it's own doesn't seem all that bad either.
This probably just eats up too many slots, to make it workable, but i'm just throwing it out there as food for thought.
Sup guys, had to sell my LED set, unfortunately :(
Some random ANT guy just offered me 400U$ the set, lol.
So I started browsing the thread again, and I've built a Mana Dredge, pretty much standard:
//Lands:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
//Dredgers:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
//Free Dudes:
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
//Other Dudes:
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
1 Woodfall Primus
//Business:
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
//Draw:
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
//Sideboard:
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Firestorm
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Ichorid
Trying to fit a 3rd Dread Return somewhere on the 75, but couldn't make space for it :(
Still, MD is pretty solid. Not running any Darkblasts because I hate to "answer" with Dredge. C'mon, it's a beatdown deck, and shouldn't worry about anything not named Leyline of the Void and friends.
Any comments?
It's a cool idea, but I think it's more or less the same effect that sphinx of the lost truths, but you need two cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReAnimator
The real advantatge of the titan dredge in vintage is that bazaar is a LAND. You can sac your bloodghast to dread returned a Titan, bring back the bazaar and the bazaar bring you back yours bloodghast again, and so on. That's the big difference.
You could bring back a cephalid coliseum (to trigger landfall) with Titan and dredge some more if you have a mana open.
Here.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReAnimator
You are welcome.
Thanks guys.
Hi all, glad to see this deck finally make it DTB again. I love playing this deck too, but lately, it felt so hard to win with dredge with mental misstep and batterskull running rampant.
My meta is filled with stoneblade decks, dreaded fish, bant aggro, GW maverick and merfolks.
I know u guys would recommend playing DDD against deck that packs lots of counter And that's what I've been doing. The problems for me are :
*After I successfully landed some narcomoebas and ichorid beatdown, I sometimes got stuck with stoneforge into Batterskull. When I got lucky, I can sometimes therapy it away. If batterskull landed, it would be so hard for me to race, especially when I don't have breakthrough or coliseum.
*in game 2, the most common hate that they bring would be relic of progenitus. I usually board in firestorm and grudge in game 2 so that I can handle his pesky equipments. But as you guys know, relic would slow us down and un-handled batterskull would slow us down even more. I even got to the point that he has reccuring spelstutter (with riptide laboratory) to counter everything that's coming outta my hand , and even my ancient grudge would do no good.
Learning from my 2 problems above, I came up to a solution(not proven though) that I must play more aggressively by landing more creatures, produce more zombies so that I can race these type of decks without having to interact with their counters. and of course DDD would be the main plan.
SO, here is my new list and please let me know what u guys think:
Creature:
3 bloodghast
3 ichorid
1 FKZ
4 golgari grave troll
4 stinkweed imp
3 golgari thug
4 narcomoeba
4 putrid imp
instants:
4 firestorm
enchantment:
4 bridge from below
sorcery:
4 breakthrough
4 cabal therapy
2 Dread return
Lands:
4 undiscovered paradise
4 city of brass
4 cephalid coliseum
2 gemstone mine
2 dakmor salvage
SB:
1 elesh norn
1 ichorid
1 Blazing archon
3 ancient grudge
4 chain of vapor
4 careful study
I put careful study in the SB so that I can always go back to the original dredge list when we are facing fast decks without counters (ANT, goblins, etc)
I tried a Bloodghast/Ichorid list during our Nationals Legacy Open tourney here in the Philippines and finished 17th out of 101 players with a 4-1-2 record. I got paired against Stoneblade three times in that tournament and I swept the two MUs and ended with a draw on one. I could have also swept the one MU that ended in a draw but he top decked a Tormod's Crypt after I raped his hand with Therapy on G2. DDD + Cabal Therapy is a solid plan against those MUs and you could easily race one Batterskull with an army of Ichorids, Bloodghasts, Narcomoebas and Zombie Tokens. Racing against two Batterskulls is a different story tho.
Quite a positive result for you Shaboogs, mind showing me your decklist?
// Enchantments (4)
4 Bridge from Below
// Creatures (28)
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Bloodghast
3 Ichorid
3 Tireless Tribe
// Spells (14)
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
// Lands (14)
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Dakmor Salvage
// Sideboard (15)
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Nature's Claim
1 Terastodon
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
My SB plan against UW Stoneblade: -4 Breakthrough +3 Ancient Grudge +1 Terastodon
These were my MU's that day:
Round 1: Thopter Sword – Draw (1-1)
Round 2: BGW Junk/Rock – Win (2-0)
Round 3: UW Blade Control – Draw (1-1)
Round 4: UW Blade Control – Win (2-0)
Round 5: UW Blade Control – Win (2-0)
Round 6: GW Maverick – Loss (0-2)
Round 7: UG Infect Berserk – Win (2-0)
It was also worth noting that I lost the die roll in every single god forsaken round that day so I always went second. When I saw that my opponent's land drop was blue, I always went for the DDD plan even if I had multiple discard dorks in my opening hand.
nice decklist, Thanks.
@SHAABOGS
Nice job with the deck. I haven't tested bloodghast dredge for awhile, so I have a couple questions. How did you lose to maverick 0-2? I have found it to be a very good MU for dredge, is it tougher with bloodghast dredge or just some bad luck? Have you tried sun Titan, might be good in your list?
Leyline of the Void, I never liked it in dredge, did you like it?
Maverick isn't great MU since they pack Mental Missteps MD and Scavenging Ooze.. StP/KotRs/wastelands also Hurts. After SB its much harder E.Tutor Package with Dueling Grounds and other utilities attacks from many directions, Chain of Vapor sometimes isn't enough. I found that Firestorms works well in early game killing mana dorks, and also discarding without fear of counters..
I have been playing LED dredge lately. It kinda rapes maverick. Guess I was a little spoiled. Decks without counter magic and/or Leyline of the Void roll over to LED. Forgot all the hate it packs.
Game one, I lost the die roll and kept a hand with no dredgers but a couple of Careful Studies and lands, Breakthrough and a Tireless Tribe. I started to dig for dredgers with Careful Study but by the time I got my engine going he already had a Progenitus in play. I still had a chance to race against the hydra god so I raised a lethal undead army. Unfortunately, he played Mother of Runes and Noble Hierarch so that he could stop my quest for brains and survive while Progenitus finished me off.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
Game 2, my opponent went down to five cards, but two of those cards were Surgical Extraction. I had a Putrid Imp and a Stinkweed Imp in my opening hand so I played the outlet and passed the turn. My opponent played a land and passed the turn back. I discarded my dredger on my upkeep only to be exiled by Surgical Extraction. I drew a card and found a Golgari Thug. It was déjà vu on my next upkeep as he surgically extracted my dredger and it took me a while before I drew my last dredger, Golgari Grave Troll. Unfortunately, he already had a commanding board position with Knight of the Reliquary and friends. He finished me off by fetching a Bojuka Bog on my end step and killing me with those guys.
I tried Sun Titan in the past and had success with him but I wanted to test Feldman's idea on not having dedicated DR targets in the main. Right now, I put him back as my only non Troll target. -1 Golgari Thug +1 Sun TitanQuote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
Never used it in the tournament since I wasn't paired against the mirror or reanimator. LoTV was a meta call coz Dredge is one of the most cheapest competitive decks out there. I did see a lot of Dredge/Reanimator decks in the tournament tables that day. I guess I just got lucky.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
So i tried out a Sun Titan list at an 84 person side event at my Nationals. I went 5-2 and ended up in tenth place. I mulled to 4 in 3 game 1's and pulled out only 1 of those games. You really don't want to be throwing away game 1's with this deck so that hampered my performance.
Here is the list. I hadn't tested at all and i'd change a few things.
Creatures
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Bloodghast
2 Ichorid
3 Hapless Researcher
2 Sun Titan
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
Spells
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
Lands
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Dakmor Salvage
Sideboard (15)
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Firestorm
1 Nature's Claim
1 Iona
2 Unmask
The Sun Titan engine was pretty insane, suntitan into Coliseum is just game over every time. I wanted the FKZ for combo and mirror matches so you could pull out the win really fast when necessary but if i knew the meta better i probably would run it in the board.
I think i'd cut the Hapless' they were fine but not amazing, interacting with suntitan was good, blocking for a turn, and getting a bridge token (or removing bridges in the mirror) is all fine, but not amazing i liked them a little more than carful's, i might keep 1 just for the sun titan interaction.
I'd totally run the Firestorms main, i really regretted not doing so, i boarded them in every single round. Getting around counterspells and killing creatures? sign me up the only thing they aren't good against is fast combo, but they are still an outlet.
I'd probably want an extra land to support that though.
Bloodghasts were awesome, i was way more impressed with them then Ichorids. I was happy with the 2 Ichorids, but i don't think i would want any more.
I really liked this deck despite all the things wrong with my build, I guess i'll have to get the last 12 foils i need for it now. =P
I have a question about sideboarding against Merfolk, knowing they are bringing in Relic. First, I should tell you the sideboard I'm using next weekend as it's a small metagame, and ignoring hate isn't going to work for me.
4 Firestorm
4 Nature's Claim
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Ichorid
1 Elesh Norn
1 Terastodon
1 Ancestor's Chosen
Against fish, there are several cards I want to side in, but I need to know what's best. Firestorm, Grudge, Ichorid and Elesh Norn all seem like possibilities. I know siding all those in is not the best idea since we're a tight combo deck, but here's what I'm thinking I'll do for game two. I use Feldman's list, by the way.
-4 Careful Study, -2 Dread Return, -1 Cabal Therapy
+4 Firestorm, +3 Ancient Grudge
Is it too radical to side out all my DR against folk? I've never been a fan of trying to resolve one in the matchup, but I understand how much of a beating Elesh Norn is against them. I'm really just curious what you guys would do given my board.
First of all, your board looks really good. That's a good 15 cards to go with.Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
Against folks everyone has the problems you mentioned. Side out DR for max consistency or go with Elesh Norn?
To start with, I'd leave Studies in and cut Breakthrough. You're probebly not going to resolve any draw effect anyway, and going all in on BT can cost you a game. Study digs for Firestorms and slowly keeps your engine going.
Then, you need the set of Firestorms. And Ancient Grudges depend on wether they have hate or not. If you know they have, take in all 3 Grudges. If you're unsure you can go with 2 and take the third in for game 3 if you need to.
All in all I would board:
-4 Breakthrough, -1 Golgari Thug, -1 Dread Return, -1 Putrid Imp
+4 Firestorm, +3 Ancient Grudge
If you really want the Elesh, try: -4 Breakthrough, -1 Thug, -1 PImp, -1 Cabal Therapy; +4 Firestorm, +2 Ancient Grudge, +1 Elesh Norn
Being an advocate of Firestorm maindeck, and believing that 8 discard should be enough, I'd say I'd side Tireless Tribe for Firestorms with your list.
I'd also always keep at least 1x Dread Return, and then, siding a few careful seems about right, but I'd try to balance the deck properly.
So I think I'd side like this:
-4 Tireless Tribe, -1Dread return, -2 Careful Study
+4 Firestorm, +3 Ancient Grudge
Siding Elesh Norn would be trickier, since I don't like relying on Firestorm with too few Dredgers, So I think if I was to side Elesh, I'd skip siding Grudges, or the deck could malfunction.
My thoughts.
No. Don't bring in Ancient Grudge. Cutting a Putrid Imp to bring in Ancient Grudge is really bad. TryQuote:
Originally Posted by Izor
+4 Firestorm
+1 Ichorid
+1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
-4 Breakthrough
-2 Cabal Therapy
Man, Richard Feldman taught you how to build and sideboard the deck. [Completely unproductive flame removed. Verbal warning. - Bardo]
No need to call people stupid for trying to improve, IMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
Richard Feldman also told us to use Chain of Vapor once, and came back on that. I think this is a matter worth discussing.
Also, I find siding Cabal Therapy out to be a mistake whenever I think about it.
Feldman's sideboard is also tuned for a big tournament. I'm talking about my local shop with weekly events where everyone knows what each other are playing. So I run into graveyard hate every single game two, but I don't have any other decks to play so I'm stuck with this. That's why I don't use Feldman's sideboard: it isn't suited for my metagame.
Don't go backwards. Only move forward.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui
Siding out Cabal Therapy against a deck where every card is identical seems fine. And he's been siding it out for 2 years in Legacy and more in Extended. He knows what he's doing.
Seriously. I don't care if you're running into graveyard hate. The point of his article is that the best answer to graveyard hate is an active Tireless Tribe/Putid Imp and a blue draw spell. The only graveyard hate worth dedicating actual answers to is: Leyline of the Void, Planar Void, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Yixlid Yailer. (There may be a few similar cards). Boarding in Ancient Grudge against Relic of Progenitus is not actually that effective.
I get it. Dredge seems like a deck that lets you be cute. "Oh look at me, Dread Returning Iona/Sun Titan/Flamekin Zealot/Hundroog." Stop it. You wouldn't cut a Goblin Matron to run Wort, the Raidmother would you? Not even if it made your Pyrokinesis that much better.
Every time you go against the established Dredge wisdom, somewhere a Bridge from Below becomes a Bridge to Nowhere.
I have an article that I may write one day about how to beat hate with Dredge, but I'm not convinced people would notice.
Don't get me wrong, my only fixed Dread Return is a Sadistic in SB and is used against combo, where I know it to win the game without giving them the chance to come back even if it is a small DR. There is no reason for you to say things like this to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
Now, saying he knows what he's doing because he does that since forever is something to consider, but still he has been doing this forever and just this year he cutted grudge from SB.
And see, you also agree with me (and thus not that much with him) that fighting Leyline is worth it, so it is a valid discussion.
I dislike going in a game where I am already siding out the cards that flood my graveyard (draw spells) with even less Sacrifice outlets. Besides, Cabal Therapy adds up for a successful cast of Dread Return, protecting from counterspells. I still think it is wrong. But even if I had to, I'd side only 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
And for grudges, maybe you are right, maybe it's not worth siding it... If you wanna share your experience about this, I'd appreciate.
Welcome to The Source: Your Source for Honest Patronization.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
The archetype has evolved so much over the past few years that even the most basic, fundamental principals have changed. I've read Feldman's article multiple times, studied it, and buried into my memory, yet I believe Damon W. (Parcher) summed it all up in a nutshell when he said, "Even the subtlest of changes can cost you a game." Feldman's article, while deep in its approach, still won't change Dredge players' attitudes towards what they feel are optimal choices, because Dredge is one of the most meta-dependent decks in the format. The core of a Dredge deck might never change, but siding strategies will.
People can argue that until they're blue in the face and it won't matter, because each player brings a unique aspect of their game to the archetype (and game in general), and to dismiss someone who might seem more, say, 'enlightened' on the topic doesn't mean they're necessarily, as you put it, "stupid." I am currently diving deep into the realm of Dredge, and I've been listening to those players who are much better than I am and far more experienced in the archetype to take note what I should and shouldn't do, as well as could and could not do. Big difference there, and I think this is where you're mistaken. There are, in fact, flex slots where quantity can be adjusted slightly to improve on meta-dependent decisions.
Those players who ride a certain style of play might not be as accomplished as he (Feldman) or his thriving wisdom within the confines of the 'Dredge' archetype, but there's no need to debunk others' theories towards opening up legitimate optimism on an archetype that has changed dramatically over the course of its inception. There are so many would-be experts on the topic that it makes sense sometimes to listen to a fresh opinion on the topic.
Also, your definition of "cute" as it pertains to Dread Return targets seems a bit confusing; if you are referring to targets that are suboptimal in general, then yes, you are correct in your assumption. However, there are in fact a great deal of targets that are better suited to do exceptionally well in a targeted, specific meta. To simply paste someone for trying to adjust while adhering to the intricacies of play that people like Feldman and Parcher have taught us is just ludicrous. As a studier of these guys' time and efforts, I can say with full conviction Dredge has become more meta dependent than ever before. It is a deck that punishes players for making poor sideboarding choices and decks that have inexplicably terrible game one's against turbo-aggressive strategies.
Don't forget this interesting read, too.
Exactly how "accomplished" is Feldman with Dredge, anyhow? The only results that I've heard of are his going 9-6 with it at the GP years ago. That record includes two byes.
My SB against Merfolk would be +3 Ancient Grudge +1 Elesh Norn/Iona -4 Breakthrough. I didn't like Firestorm when I tested it so I dropped it from my 75. I'd personally never cut Cabal Therapy during post board games coz I like to see if I can finish off my opponent after playing around the hate by ensuring that he/she does not have any other tricks up his/her sleeve. And it's one of the two spells (dread return being the other one) that make zombies from warm bodies.
Dredge is metagame dependent in one way: you need to know when to set it aside. And occasionally you radically alter your sideboard but still play the deck if a significant portion of decks are matchups that are solvable but bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Enchantress and Lands are both matchups that are easily solvable, but are bad otherwise. Stax, by contrast, is a matchup that is both bad and basically unsolvable. Combo is bad but somewhat solvable. The solvable matchups you can make drastically better by devoting an extra 3-4 sideboard slots.
(And if you're curious, Feldman and Zac Hill were a deckbuilding force during Extended, and few of the people to seriously devote time to Dredge.)
As far as I can tell, the optimal dredge list is:
Richard Feldman's 60
Sideboard:
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Firestorm
1 Ichorid
1 Terastodon/Angel of Despair/Woodfall Primus
0 Ancient Grudge.
Then you can put in a variety of packages or bullets.
4 Nature's Claim (against Leyline decks)
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (against Elves)
3-4 Winds of Change (against combo)
1 Blightseel Colossus (Painter's Servant)
1 Dread Return
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
(Preliminary package if you have several matchups in the field you need to combo out against, coupled with one or more of the following (depending on matchups):
1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Aura Thief
1 Realm Razer)
3-4 Leyline of the Void
For example, my paper list is his -1 Elesh Norn, +1 Aura Thief.
Hi everybody, I am new on the forum, but I read the Dredge's Topic since sometimes. :tongue:
I play the deck in France and I have few questions for you about some specificities.
First of all, this is my deckbuild.
As you seen it, this is classical list of LED-Dredge, quite similar to Vandalize's one, but as he said really strong and stable.Quote:
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [TSP] Gemstone Mine
1 [M12] Sun Titan
1 [SHM] Woodfall Primus
2 [RAV] Darkblast
2 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
3 [TO] Ichorid
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [TO] Deep Analysis
2 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [FUT] Street Wraith
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
SB: 1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 [NPH] Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 4 [ON] Wispmare
SB: 1 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 1 [TO] Ichorid
The presence of 2 Darkblasts Maindeck is mainly for Merfolk, and I prefer it than Firestorm because it is recursive and really strong at the 1st game, and open to more Sideboard options at the 2nd &/or 3rd game. :cool:
But I have many questions to Dredge players (and you ReAnimator).
1- Inside my build I dithering to do 11 dredgers and 3 Deep Analysis to gain rapidity against some decks like HiveMind for example.
2- ReAnimator, I use Sun Titan like a new River Kelpie to be faster, but are you fizzling with more than 1 slot and with your Bloodghasts ? :eyebrow:
3- In a Combo metagame, I have 4 Winds of Change in my SB, I tried to use it unsuccessfully against HiveMind, what is your SB solution against this deck ?
To answer your question igri_is_a_bk, against Merfolk, I exit the DreadReturn plan and insert my 4th Ichorid, 3rd Darkblast and +2 Ancient Grudge, and for me it is always quite well.
I think i could definitely cut a titan or more likely the FKZ. I wouldn't cut the bloodghasts at all, they were amazing for me and way better than ichorids. However my list is significantly different from yours, i don't have as many black creatures that you do to fuel ichorids, and i have more lands and ways to get land back with the dredge land and undiscovereds, so ghasts are going to work a lot better for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by PH-
As far as fizzling goes, i found i fizzled more with only 1 titan, sometimes you just wouldn't hit one, so you would have to dredge a lot, where as if you have two you usually hit one early and that would get coliseum on line and do the rest of your deck and bring all the ghasts back to get the next titan, and you would just chain through your whole deck. The nice thing about bloodghasts and titans is that you can get ghasts back multiple times a turn, whereas ichorid does not do this.
Hope this is helpful, like i said i had zero testing and i'd make a few changes so test things out for yourself i have no idea if my list is good, just that it worked well for me.