Printable View
So I finally got a spark going on amongst my community to where we are going to have weekly legacy. * probably just 6-8 people each week till it gets noticed*
I will start keeping reports as I have tes built, but haven't played anything outside of proxied decks of dredge and junk. Hopefully i can eventually give my input on countertop and other decks as i know one person will be playing dreadtop.
Have we come to conclusion on what the sb should be?
No :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by r3dd09
And I believe we just CAN'T till the new metagame starts to show.
You can play the standard SB for now, it has proven its value.
For now, I'm testing the etw plan
1 TOA
1 D returns
1 iggy
3 etw
1 grapeshot
1 tropical island
3 xantid swarm
1 meltdown
1 deathmark
2 chain of vapor
I like it for the moment. More testing is necessary however.
Though with such a small metagame, you should adjust accordingly: i.e. if 2 of them play MUD more artifact hate/bounce is necessary etc
I'd recommend varying your bounce spells again. I've been running 3 Chain of Vapor to deal with hate bears and random things like Thorns/Pillar/etc, but once New Phyrexia is legal I'll be running the 1-1-1 split of Chain / Echoing Truth / Wipe Away. Or possibly even 2 Echoing Truth and 1 Wipe Away. The hype around Mental Misstep is huge, and I'd expect a lot of baddies running aggro decks to side them vs TES along with Hate bears and such. No need to lose to Misstep when you try to bounce Canonist with a Chain of Vapor when it can just be an Echoing Truth instead. Just something to take note of.
Seems logical, but is this really true?Quote:
Originally Posted by x8eikdls
They don't have MM => chain >>> truth
They have MM:
I: chain, MM, bummer
You: truth, proceed to combo, dark ritual, MM, bummer.
Truth has the advantage that when you bounced canonist, you can chant them (and blank their MM), but this advantage doesn't apply to teeg, where you can chant them no matter what.
I understand your reasoning and will test it out, though I'm still very attached to my chains.
one thing is that i'm not running xantid :/ if i do, i'd have to invest in different fetches and the Trop.
I will see how my meta is before i invest, but i do plan on getting a playset of each dual and fetch kinda soon. so this might get the ball rolling.
Diprivan is wrong. You only need the normal main deck to run Xantids, no Tropical needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by r3dd09
Also, Echoing Truth is just better than Chain of Vapour. When you have Chain in your hand and they play Chalice at one, you will want to shoot yourself. Or if they have two Meddling Mages or something weird like that, Echoing Truth has been awesome for me, and in TES I have never wanted anything else.
The only time I ever wanted anything else was when Zoo Pyroblasted my Echoing Truth and beat me down with hatebears. I switched to Wipe Away, and then promptly lost to Null Rod + Wasteland when I was unable to hit three mana. I agree that Truth is definitely better after that experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by lorddotm
Tropical isn't there to cast xantid. It's there against wasteland. I board it in against landdestruction.dec and really like the 14th land there. Since it's convenient to not have to blow a petal on it, it being green does help cast xantid swarm in those matchups, where the chance of you having a 5c land in play are not that super.
On truth vs chain: both have their merits. Chain is vulnerable to MM and cotv, but truth has it's own weaknesses: 2 mana, spell snare, daze/pierce more relevant against it, 1 damage more of Adn, etc.
But erh, if they play cotv on 1 and I don't have burning wish, well yeah, I'll lose that one. But if they play thorn/golem/sphere and I only have 2 lands, I'll laugh and you'll die with truth in your hand.
It's like your right hand and a prostitute:
both serve the same purpose, one is cheaper though less able to pull it off everytime, the other is more expensive, but gets the job done almost everytime.
i just imagine my meta being inexpensive decks in the beginning, i'm going to be loaning out dredge and affinity, there will probably be 2x gobos, and most likely another dredge plus the dreadtop. I should be able to do good against everything so far, i played against a junk player and still rocked him when he's wastelanding me.
expect weekly updates on my deck/ matchups
Thanks in advance for the input.
Dredge, affinity and goblins all are excellent matchups, so with normal SB hate they should be a walk in the park. But beware, once they'll know you win the small tournament everytime, you'll face a SB of 15 anti combo cards and you'll need to adapt.
I've only lost to being Wasted out once. That was when they drew three Wastelands, and they were blue. I don't expect that to happen too often. However, if you are concerned about Wasteland and want another land to help, just use another City of Brass, it produces every colour.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diprivan
The thing is, you're going to lose a lot more due to Chain being shitty than Echoing Truth being an issue. Maybe you live in a world where people never have two hate cards out, but I sure do. I don't play against Sphere effects too often, they are almost always too slow to affect us too, or they are coming from a deck I expect it to come from, and I will be playing out my Artifact mana. I used to use Chain, and then I realized that it was just needed when I was playing badly, and when I was being a good Magic player, Echoing Truth was always better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diprivan
Also, with the whole Burning Wish being an out, that is two whole turns you are giving up to answer one spell. I get that we rely on Burning Wish to get us out of a lot of things, but it is slow, and it takes away a business spell.
That is a horrible analogy. If you can't finish when you beat it go to a doctor, watch less fucked up porn, or beat it less.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diprivan
The only decks I face with cotv also play sphere/golem/thorn (ie MUD), so I kinda like the chains there. Though if everybody and his cousin starts playing MM or cotv 'cause OMFG it stops MM!!!!!1!!!1 COMBO", I'll switch to truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by lorddotm
Relax, just joking. We're discussing 2 slots in a SB of a magic deck and both cards are - let's face it - not that different.
I'm celebrating Bob Marley's life, I'm very relaxed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diprivan
I was just offering sound medical advice.
Also, Distress and Thoughtseize aren't too different, but one is clearly better. The same is with Echoing Truth and Chain (although if we are going by mana cost, it would be reversed).
As long as we celebrate Bob Marley, we make this world a better place.Quote:
Originally Posted by lorddotm
Quote:
Originally Posted by r3dd09
I don't know why I find it funny that you're loaning out decks like goblins and affinity to jumpstart legacy and then playing TES, but I do :D
I have finally arrived at a TES list that I like. I have been testing this list for a while and this is the only one I have been satisfied with since the MT banning. Here is what I have been playing:
4x Petal
4x Brainstorm
4x Burning Wish
3x Infernal Tutor
3x Chrome Mox
2x Personal Tutor
4x LED
4x Dark Ritual
4x Ponder
4x Rite of Flame
4x Duress
3x Swarm
1x Tendrils
1x EtW
1x Ad Nauseam
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass
2x Sea
1x Volcanic
1x Mire
1x Tarn
1x Strand
SB
2x Wipe Away
2x Shattering Spree
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Swarm
1x Meltdown
1x Thoughtseize
2x Deathmark
1x D Returns
1x IGG
1x EtW
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Tendrils
The Personal Tutors have been nuts. However, I am still unsure about the EtW. The fact that I can fetch it so easily is really great but ... I still feel like it should be AdN. I took this deck to my local tournament tonight and scrubbed out after going 2-2. I beat CBThopter and Spiral Tide and lost twice to 4c CB. This list is ... amazing against Merfolk but TES is still just so weak against CB, especially when you have to mull and keep sub-par hands. I just kept asking myself "why out of all nights, there is not a single Merfolk player in the room, am I not playing DDFT?" The SB could certainly be modded a little bit but ... DD is just so much better against CB, but Merfolk still gives it problems. So thats the dilemma. However, I encourage people to test this list before theorizing about it, it is a pure beast and Personal Tutor is no joke in this deck.
EDIT: Forgot manabase.
I like Personal Tutor, but back when Mystical wasn't banned, I remember that it was Dark Ritual that I tutored for the most, by far.
Yes. However, it does find Rite of Flame and action spells so it beats the hell out of the 2-3 Preordains that I had been testing for a little. It seems janky, but running 2 is just perfect. Adds a whole new level of consistency to a deck that I usually sleeve up and take apart after 30 mins and put DDFT back together. This list has been sleeved for 4 days or so now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
Looks like your list is a card short.
Also, Xantid main is an interesting choice.
Am I the only one that has a winning record against CB in tournaments?
Dredge and affinity is what I'm loaning out,Quote:
Originally Posted by TUMBLES
I'm loaning those two out because that's what I have complete and one being straight forward to play and the other being a more skill intensive deck( dredge).
Plus, I'd rather not loan out a deck to people I don't know that has wastelands, forces and other stuff in it.
I've only started to purchase legacy cards a month ago so my pool isn't too amazing :p
My priority was to finish tes, and that's all that matters ;)
-ps, I'm glad the decks I'm loaning out don't have their sideboards ready yet. Lol
His point was that you borrow them decks that have subpar chance to win versus you in a situasion where you want to build a legacy envirementQuote:
Originally Posted by r3dd09
Nope, me too. I'd play countertop all day long: epic, skill-intensive matches, where you can show you know your deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by lorddotm
Xantid main is an interesting option indeed, though I prefer chants at first sight. I'll test Pulp's list this weekend.
I knew that's what he meant, I have about 8 proxied decks so I let them play to see what kind of deck they want, also I'm buying cards and selling them for less than what I bought them for, among other things. This is how I've tried to spark an interest among my community, must be working ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by stasis
But I do get your point.
Why isn't grim tutor played in this deck? Can I some insight on this cut?
Because by splashing R for burning wish we don't need additional business.Quote:
Originally Posted by r3dd09
Some UB Ant list play grim, because they otherwise have an anemic 4 infernal tutor, 1-2 adn as business.
Burning wish does everything grim does and more.
It's a fucking terrible card. Burning Wish is just better.Quote:
Originally Posted by r3dd09
Burning wish restricts you to sorcery. But it makes sense, Leaviating putting answers in the main when you can fetch for them in the board.
Very few times is getting Emtpy, Diminishing, or Iggy not enough. Also, doesn't cost 3 life.Quote:
Originally Posted by r3dd09
I am not sure if I can describe this so people will believe it. But those who have seen it firsthand, are usually amazed. I am like a negative rabbits foot and have some of the worst luck in card games u can imagine. This is the main reason I have trouble with CB .... my opening hands usually suck or I keep cantripping into more cantrips and rarely ever have what i need. After reading Cook's reports I am amazed at the kinds of hands he opens, I don't get those. This is why I play DD because Top says, fuck u deck ... I will find what is necessary. Now I am sure no one will believe this but I like to say it anyway because all my buddies at the cardshop who read this site know what I'm talking about. That aside, I have lost to Cb with DDFT ... maybe twice out of about the last 12 or so times I played and both times were to 1-2 outers ripped off the Also, people in my met top.
Onto the Xantids, I don't advocate playing them main, just something I am trying out in my meta to see how they are. Clearly they are weaker against CB but ... usually there isn't a lot, last week was a total anomoly. But I am not sure if I would want blasts or Wipe Away as of yet. I am definitely going to swap the EtW main for the second AdN though. I have really liked having 2. Also, people in my meta always run some combination of EE and Firespouts main so ... it loses a lot of its effectiveness. And people talking about the EtW plan, it really sucks. I tested it in the past and the deck turns into pseudo-belcher, I didn't like it at all and found it to be quite ineffective.
EDIT: Grim Tutor is terrible, in TES and those awful Lax ANT lists.
EDIT 2: @lorddotm: Just checked, I am pretty sure I am not missing a card in the list but I am running 14 lands.
Understandable. I was probably tired or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
With the average sideboard, what do we sideboard in and out for each matchup?
2nd post in the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by r3dd09
Seems like every few pages we have to remind people that there is a lot of literature about this deck. Bryant has written a fantastic primer, I have written a primer, there are countless tournament reports, those will answer everything in a much more satisfying way than anything else. If you have further questions, feel free to quote a certain instance that confuses you, and we will be more than happy to help.
TLDR: Too fuckin' bad. Read the it.
It would be nice if we could get a password which we would hide in one of the reading pieces so that you could post in the thread.
Back on topic:
Been trying the Empty the Warrens plan, haven't quite decided if I like it or not, it is very high variance.
Edit: I've had good luck with etw. What about it is giving you trouble? /editQuote:
Originally Posted by lorddotm
I have read a lot the the thread off and on, I realize that Bryant has an outstading primer and I don't know how frequently it's updated as I know he is in college.
I'm just trying to get my crap together to prepare myself for the first legacy tournament in my area, but I do understand your point on l2r.
Playing a different competitive game besides magic, I realize people want straight up answers and don't want to read/practice, tes being a deck that scrubs try to pick up to instant win, but try don't realize how much you need to test the deck.
This is very similar to my other game that I use to play, people would try to pick up my character because he's basically an instant kill through combos, but they want instant results when it's practice oriented.
Yo, lord. Is your primer linked on the first page? Mobile browser is being difficult, if it isn't on the first page, could you kindly link it to me, or anyone for that matter.
Also, is anyone going to providence to rep tes?
The problem with the 4 Empty plan is that you have to have one in your opening hand to have it be effective. High variance.Quote:
Originally Posted by r3dd09
The opening post is relevant enough that you could've acquired your information from that. My primer is on the opening post, there is a whole secti on of reading material on there, if you want to win with TES, reading all of that shit will be very helpful. Also, tournament reports are fantastic.
Providence is on the other side of the cunt, so I don't think I will be visiting. Plus, I wanted someone else to have the chance to win.
Are you talking about running 4 etw?
Yeah, I plan on reading a Lot of what's linked on the op. I work 12 hour graveyard shifts. All I do I read articles on magic and trade online.
I will take notes on Tuesday of my matches. I don't see me having any issues taking first unless the dreadtop player enters.
Earlier on in the thread (aka last page) people we talking about 4 Empty against Tempo.Quote:
Originally Posted by r3dd09
Honestly, people over complicate this deck by not reading all this material. I am one of the least, we will say sober, people that plays Legacy in LA, and I still manage to win some.
Team Hookers n' Blow reppin'Quote:
Originally Posted by lorddotm
I don't feel like 4 etw is the answer to tempoQuote:
Originally Posted by lorddotm
Yet again comparing to the last game I played, there was a player that was just like you lord. Comical, must be the combo players among games.
I feel like my meta will be budget with few good pilots due to my state never really having a legacy scene, hate to scare them away when I play the deck. Combo usually does that to people haha.
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by lorddotm
I think this is the major flaw in the etw plan. Though my testing results with it, remain impressive:
Tested against Ubw dreadstill:
preboard: TES 4 - dreadstill 6
postboard: TES 7 - dreadstill 2 (he got furious and didn't want to play the last game. Said something bout me being too lucky with "having my 1 etw everytime" :cool:)
note: dreadstill has no answer to etw, except naturally drawing their 1 EE (fetching it with trinket is too slow)
Tested against merfolk: (4 fow, 4 mm, 4 daze, 4 catcher)
preboard: TES 3 - merfolk 7
posboard:
xantids, no etw plan: TES 6 - merfolk 4
xantids + etw plan: TES 8 - merfolk 2
I didn't expect the etw plan to work that well against folk, because they can race it if you can't go for it turn 1 or turn 2 on the play. However, if you manage turn 1-2 etw 10+ goblins, you just win (they only have 0-2 echoing truth as an out)
To those who lose to countertop everytime:
etw is golden in this matchup. You win before balance lands and even if it lands, it's not that hard to reach 4-5 storm en playing empty through balancelock.
Hi! I would like to build TES, but unfortunately i dont have the budget to afford the duallands at the moment. What would you guys suggest to replace them with? 10 rainbow lands and 3 Simian spirit guides? I can always try to borrow some duals, but I cant rely on that ofcourse.
Thanks, Maarten