[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

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Originally Posted by .dk

You're making it more complicated than it needs to be. Ideally, you'd have 2 draws available - saw an SDT and Gitaxian Probe in hand, but it's not required. Tendrils is insurance. Doomsday, Probe into Shelldock, and hide Emrakul. Pass. Next turn, activate Shelldock, cast Emrakul, extra turn trigger, draw Lotus Petal. Pass... to yourself. Draw Dark ritual. Attack with Emrakul for 15. Cast Petal, Ritual, tap SDT to draw Tendrils, cast Tendrils for 6.

You can easily slow roll the pile too, if you want/need. Or make Shelldock, Emrakul, Dark Ritual, Tendrils, Doomsday is extra extra insurance. Don't forget that Shelldock shortens your pile by 1 card and that you have another draw on your extra turn from your Emrakul trigger.



If you want basic Island, then yes, I would run 2 Flats and 2 Strands. I would replace the 3rd Underground Sea with Island in that case. With all of the UR Delver decks everywhere, I was guessing that there would be less Wasteland around in general (and at least in my matches, I was right), and I would rather have the USea than Island. The 4 Flats/4 Delta fetch configuration gives you perfect access to all of your lands in my configuration - when you start adding in Island it gets a little weirder and you will sometimes get screwed by having the wrong fetch (you really need a swamp, both Seas are in play, and you have a Flooded Strand in your hand - sad days).

But one thing to remember is that we do have 4 Lotus Petals and a Chrome Mox, and those can help fix in a pinch as well. Chrome Mox exiling LDV is Underground Sea, after all. I cast cantrips off of Petals now and then as well, particularly when I'm transformed into Doomsday, as you don't need the non-land IMS density as high as you do with the maindeck.



That's a good idea - I'll add a section in the post.

As far as any larger competitive event that I'm taking seriously though, I always shuffle all 15 in and then take them out. Anything else is just laziness and giving away information to your opponent. :)

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I guess i am making it more complicated, but thats also the beauty of Doomsday. There are near endless posibilities. The thing is seeing them in the moment you need to :-)

The more i think about the mana the more i am starting to feel that Tundra is the odd man out. In the situatipn you discribed you can offcourse get Scrubland to.
When playing TinFins are nearly always went for Island -> cantrip and t2 swamp. Holding back a fetch for white dual in case i need to cast the child.
Having both Tundra and Scrubland was only security. And the only white spell is childran anyway unlike regular tinfins (silence, pull from eternity, serenity).

I have played the list for a couple of games and at first it felt a bit akward playing 2 decks. Also the DDFT list felt weird missing Burning Wish, but the more i played it the more i am liking it. Its like playing ANT while normally you play TES. Also pulled of some T1 kills with doomsday. thats just awesome if you first pulled of a t0 Griselbrand plus Emrakul....

Edit: the list is like perfect. I dont think that there is anything i could/want to change other than that basic Island..

You're totally right. After discussing with Wanderlust last night and thinking about it more, Thndra definitely becomes island, and you leave the seas alone. That still gives you the same amount of lands to be able to case doomsday off of lands alone. I still don't like Flooded Strand much, but if you really want a basic island, then that is the swap to make.

/edit: actually strand isn't AWFUL in that case, as it still gets everything but basic swamp. So maybe if you're in a meta that realt wants basic island, then you can play 4 strand and 4 delta. And you make really good points about tundra - that could probably be replaced in my NJ list with another Underground Sea.

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Originally Posted by .dk

Actually strand isn't AWFUL in that case, as it still gets everything but basic swamp. So maybe if you're in a meta that realt wants basic island, then you can play 4 strand and 4 delta.

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Cool, i guess i will keep testing 2/2 split between MFlats and FStrand with a 1/1 split between Island/Swamp.

Another thing that has me spooking, how do we get rid of Chalice of the Void. If theres 1 i suppose we can play around avoiding cards at that specific CMC, but what if they drop Chalice @ 1 and 0-2 turns later one on 0? Most of those decks also run Wasteland (MUD/Lands). Did you come across situations where Chalice was a problem?

Edit: Game 1, Chalice @ 1 is really a nightmare for TinFins i have experienced.

Chalice is a lot worse for tin fins than it is for Doomsday. Chalice + wasteland means you can't go for shelldock, but you could conceivably make some piles that don't use 1 drops. Like... Mini tendrils, cast doomsday. Then mini tendrils again. If they have Chakice on 0 and 1, then your only out is Shelldock/Emrakul.

My preferred strategy: win the Die roll and kill them on T1.

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Originally Posted by .dk

Thndra definitely becomes island.

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We also discussed turning Tundra into Gemstone Mine. I'm leaning in that direction personally right now - I think we want all of our lands to help cast Doomsday postboard.

So I saw this list a few months ago http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/247479#online since I already had all the cards for it I built it on MODO and played a bunch of games since the deck is so much fun to play, now I have only played it in one daily event and I finished 3-1 and that was a month ago. I am seriously planning on playing the deck tomorrow at the SCG Open in Richmond. Are there any changes that you guys would make? nothing too drastic though.

If I were you, I would drop the third Gris for LED #4. Also, I'd like to see 2 Infernal Tutor in the 75, or at bare minimum, one in the board. That's just me.

Funny list. TesFins.
Anyway i think that a BW plan might open up a more solid midgame, sacrificing some speed. Does it make the list more resilient? TinFins has problems fighting beyond Turn3 and having access to stuff like Pyroclasm/Massacre might enable a combo vs a developed board for say DnT (revoker on GBees, Container Priest, Spirit of the Lab, Thalia) or enable possibilities to play around it and win via another path. Edit: i think i agree on adding 4tg led and some infernal tutors, but i have no idea how your is actually gonna play in the field.

Yesterday i took DoomFins out for a spin and while it felt strong i made some errors and punted 1/3 rd of the games i played. Also TinFins bricked itself a couple of times AND i had to mull like 4 times to 4/5 with no land hands. Haha.
On the other hand, DDFT was awesome as people had no clue what i was doing and i was switching between TinFins and DDFT which really became mindgames.i played vs Burn (mindbreak trap), Goblins (thalia/rip), smallpox, UW Wizardsblade (meddling mage on emrakul prevented shelldock route, lol) and DnT.
I had a lot of trouble vs a resolved Thalia. Luckily the DnT player is playing that list really solid so testing against him should be going to improve the MU overall.

Anyway, playing the list and actually comboing with TinFins and Doomsday was awesome.

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Originally Posted by lilevo

So I saw this list a few months ago http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/247479#online since I already had all the cards for it I built it on MODO and played a bunch of games since the deck is so much fun to play, now I have only played it in one daily event and I finished 3-1 and that was a month ago. I am seriously planning on playing the deck tomorrow at the SCG Open in Richmond. Are there any changes that you guys would make? nothing too drastic though.

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Hey, I'm the builder of this deck and I'm glad you're playing it! This is last minute but I hope you end up playing it.

I have changed the list up since then a bit. I'm not playing Abrupt decay in the sideboard and swapped the Tropical for a basic swamp.

My current sideboard looks like:
3 Duress
1 Pyroclasm
1 Empty the Warens
1 Meltdown
1 Reanimate
1 Thoughtseize
1 Exhume
1 Buried Alive
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Void Snare
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Show and Tell

I have thought about Infernal Tutor before in the sideboard but I don't think it is very good. If you have enough mana to Burning Wish into Infernal Tutor then cast something else, you usually have enough mana to be able to kill with either a storm card or have a giant monster attacking. I could see applications in which you would use it to build storm or something but I don't know if that is the best use of Wish board space.

When I designed the deck initially, I had put burning wishes into the deck because I felt that TinFins when you're comboing had problems with actually converting. Sometimes you didn't make enough mana or bricked. I wanted to put LEDs in because it makes a ton of mana and you could crack them between Griselbrand activations if you could afford to discard the cards. Burning Wish became a way to play answers to their hate cards as well as being able to not have to play Tendrils in the main deck saving some space. It takes up space in one area, losing reanimation effects for less mana, to be more expensive reanimation effects but also be answers to hate and the deck's win condition. I felt that this flexibility was a good trade off. When I had played the original TinFins list, I felt that there was a ton of pressure put on actually starting the game with Entomb. You had a ton of ways to Reanimate Griselbrand so that was never a problem, but if you didn't have Entomb it seemed that the deck didn't do much. Having only two copies of griselbrand also made it hard to be able to Therapy/Thoughtseize yourself too.

I think dropping a Griselbrand for a Lion's Eye Diamond is possible but it makes it less likely to be able to cast Shallow Grave then crack and LED when you have Grisel in hand. This does come up a non-zero amount of times and is a feasible way to combo.

In terms of how I think it's placed in the meta, I think it's pretty solid right now. You have good matchups against slower combo decks as you just get to go full force. The delver decks are getting really inbred so not having to play against Spell Pierce is great. Death and Taxes is a fine matchup in my mind because a lot of their hate comes on turn two on the play at the fastest and you still have outs with Burning Wish. A lot of people in general have cut their graveyard based interaction and there are a lot less Deathrite Shamans running around too. I think if you're playing combo you might want to give the Burning Wish version a fair shake.

Shallow Grave doesn't target, so you can in fact cast Grave, pop led and then allow for you to reanimate the Griz.

I tried Burning Wish a couple years ago, ableit without LED, and honestly didn't like it very much. It takes too much mana to go off, and really wrecks the manabase. Without LED's anways, I don't think the deck makes enough mana to support with + targets - furthermore, it slows the deck down a lot. One of the best things Tin Fins has going for it is being one of the fastest decks in the format with very stable mana. Lim-Dul's Vault can find more Entombs if you need them, or a combination of discard + Griselbrand and is on color. And it's an instant, so you can cast it on your opponent's EOT and then go off on your turn. That's a pretty significant difference. This deck just doesn't make the same kind of mana that ANT or TES do (no LED, no Cabal Ritual, no Rite of Flame) - and for good reason. The mana investment to go off is only 3 - you don't need all of those. By adding in tutors like IT and Burning Wish you're putting a huge strain on the mana requirements.

One of the other benefits this deck has is that you don't have to dump all of your resources into comboing off, so if you do run into countermagic, you're not left with an empty hand. LED turns this deck into more of a glass cannon and is tough to recover from if you're disrupted.

Hey guys,
i am a former reanimator player, but i switched to the onion burst side of life ;-)
Maindeck is pretty much standard, but the side is also transformational.
I just switch to ANT, 4 Cabal Ritual, 4 LED, 4 Infernal, 1 Preordain, 1 AdN, 1 PiF.
I just don't get the DDFT engine in my head, so i keep it a little bit more simple.
Works quite good so far on Magic online. Could not test it on a bigger event yet.

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Originally Posted by .dk

I tried Burning Wish a couple years ago, ableit without LED, and honestly didn't like it very much. It takes too much mana to go off, and really wrecks the manabase. Without LED's anways, I don't think the deck makes enough mana to support with + targets - furthermore, it slows the deck down a lot. One of the best things Tin Fins has going for it is being one of the fastest decks in the format with very stable mana. Lim-Dul's Vault can find more Entombs if you need them, or a combination of discard + Griselbrand and is on color. And it's an instant, so you can cast it on your opponent's EOT and then go off on your turn. That's a pretty significant difference. This deck just doesn't make the same kind of mana that ANT or TES do (no LED, no Cabal Ritual, no Rite of Flame) - and for good reason. The mana investment to go off is only 3 - you don't need all of those. By adding in tutors like IT and Burning Wish you're putting a huge strain on the mana requirements.

One of the other benefits this deck has is that you don't have to dump all of your resources into comboing off, so if you do run into countermagic, you're not left with an empty hand. LED turns this deck into more of a glass cannon and is tough to recover from if you're disrupted.

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I don't think it hurts the mana base too much as you're only playing a Volcanic Island and a Badlands to support the Wishes. Especially with Wasteland in the decline, less people are punishing you for being three colors.

I'm not a fan of this argument because I think the cards line up the same way. I'm still playing four entomb which you cast on one, into reanimation effect. There are less reanimation effects, but any ritual and burning wish gets you Griselbrand. I do make a good amount of mana with 4 Dark Ritual, 4 Lotus Petal, 3 LED, 1 Chrome Mox. You don't need much more initially to go off through a Burning Wish. Lim-Dul's Vault and Burning Wish work similarly where they are both two mana, and require you to eat an entire turn to find the combo piece you need, except Burning Wish is more useful when you're actually comboing off. Burning Wish fixes some of the problems in which the deck completely relies on having an Entomb.

I disagree about LED making it more of a glass cannon. There are times in which it is certainly awkward but I don't think the downsides of the card outweigh the upsides. Having another avenue to get griselbrand into the graveyard is strong as well as being able to just make way more mana once you have griselbrand in play. LED is only bad against hard counters but I don't think this deck was ever too concerned with them anyway. LED nukes soft permission.

I think you're making a lot of assertions about how the deck plays without trying it. The deck is not nearly as refined in terms of figuring out what are the proper numbers of all the cards and such since I'm a testing group of one, but I think there is a lot of power here that should be at least tried and considered.

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Originally Posted by Pomegrant

I don't think it hurts the mana base too much as you're only playing a Volcanic Island and a Badlands to support the Wishes. Especially with Wasteland in the decline, less people are punishing you for being three colors.

I'm not a fan of this argument because I think the cards line up the same way. I'm still playing four entomb which you cast on one, into reanimation effect. There are less reanimation effects, but any ritual and burning wish gets you Griselbrand. I do make a good amount of mana with 4 Dark Ritual, 4 Lotus Petal, 3 LED, 1 Chrome Mox. You don't need much more initially to go off through a Burning Wish. Lim-Dul's Vault and Burning Wish work similarly where they are both two mana, and require you to eat an entire turn to find the combo piece you need, except Burning Wish is more useful when you're actually comboing off. Burning Wish fixes some of the problems in which the deck completely relies on having an Entomb.

I disagree about LED making it more of a glass cannon. There are times in which it is certainly awkward but I don't think the downsides of the card outweigh the upsides. Having another avenue to get griselbrand into the graveyard is strong as well as being able to just make way more mana once you have griselbrand in play. LED is only bad against hard counters but I don't think this deck was ever too concerned with them anyway. LED nukes soft permission.

I think you're making a lot of assertions about how the deck plays without trying it. The deck is not nearly as refined in terms of figuring out what are the proper numbers of all the cards and such since I'm a testing group of one, but I think there is a lot of power here that should be at least tried and considered.

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Yes, it's not as big of a deal with less wastelands around, that's true.

And no offense, but I have tried it and tested it. A lot. Not in your exact configuration, but I've tried each of those separately. Burning Wish... sorta "fixes" the fizzle rate post combo, but not really. It just looks that way on the surface. To make Burning Wish work, you need a guaranteed 2 IMS post drawing with Griselbrand. 1 to make R, and 1 to make B, plus either rituals or LED in your case. It's more difficult to make Children during your combo turn in this list because of that as well. You've drastically increased the likelihood that you've used a Shallow Grave to make Griselbrand to combo off, which is 1 less way to make Children without having to cast Burning Wish. You've trimmed 2 Vengeance that could have been used pre-combo, and the 1 Reanimate that could be used to make Children.

So if you're going for Tendrils you've placed greater mana constraints on what would normally be 1 IMS + Entomb + Reanimate/Grave to make Children and go infinite because you need to make 2 colors post drawing. Yes you have LED's you can crack in between draws, but that is a huge risk if you've drawn half of what you need off of your first 7.

Then there is the case where you want to make Griselbrand and Emrakul pre-combat and kill them that way (such as if they have Leyline of Sanctity). The chances of you drawing into what you need to make Emrakul are drastically reduced by 2 cards maindeck (Goryo's Vengeance), which is a fair amount considering you're only drawing 14 cards maximum.

You do run more ways to bin Griselbrand/Emrakul than the UB version, but you've done that at the cost of disruption in the deck as well. You're running less discard spells, which serve the same purpose, and do the same job without forcing you to discard your entire hand. This allows for more resiliency in the long game. I'm also not sure how you can make an argument that a card that, while it makes mana, forces you to dump your entire hand to the graveyard doesn't make the deck more of a glass cannon. You have more potential to go all in - that's exactly one of the strengths of the deck as is.

LDV is strong because it is an instant and easier on your colors. It does still work mid-combo as well if you really need it to because you still have brainstorms, ponders, and probes in your hand. Although that usually isn't relevant.

Overall, by adding LED and Burning Wish, you've diminished 2 of the major strengths of the deck. You don't need to commit your entire hand or dump 7 card draws to LED making mana. And you need a very minimal amount of mana to actually combo off as a single dark ritual pays for all of your combo pieces. You've turned a cheap 2 card combo into a more expensive 2 card combo and added LED's to compensate for that. I can't see how that is worth the trade for the very small fizzle rate of the current build.

Do we need more detail in the opening post about what we've tested, tried, cut, and why?

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Originally Posted by .dk

Yes, it's not as big of a deal with less wastelands around, that's true.

And no offense, but I have tried it and tested it. A lot. Not in your exact configuration, but I've tried each of those separately. Burning Wish... sorta "fixes" the fizzle rate post combo, but not really. It just looks that way on the surface. To make Burning Wish work, you need a guaranteed 2 IMS post drawing with Griselbrand. 1 to make R, and 1 to make B, plus either rituals or LED in your case. It's more difficult to make Children during your combo turn in this list because of that as well. You've drastically increased the likelihood that you've used a Shallow Grave to make Griselbrand to combo off, which is 1 less way to make Children without having to cast Burning Wish. You've trimmed 2 Vengeance that could have been used pre-combo, and the 1 Reanimate that could be used to make Children.

So if you're going for Tendrils you've placed greater mana constraints on what would normally be 1 IMS + Entomb + Reanimate/Grave to make Children and go infinite because you need to make 2 colors post drawing. Yes you have LED's you can crack in between draws, but that is a huge risk if you've drawn half of what you need off of your first 7.

Then there is the case where you want to make Griselbrand and Emrakul pre-combat and kill them that way (such as if they have Leyline of Sanctity). The chances of you drawing into what you need to make Emrakul are drastically reduced by 2 cards maindeck (Goryo's Vengeance), which is a fair amount considering you're only drawing 14 cards maximum.

You do run more ways to bin Griselbrand/Emrakul than the UB version, but you've done that at the cost of disruption in the deck as well. You're running less discard spells, which serve the same purpose, and do the same job without forcing you to discard your entire hand. This allows for more resiliency in the long game. I'm also not sure how you can make an argument that a card that, while it makes mana, forces you to dump your entire hand to the graveyard doesn't make the deck more of a glass cannon. You have more potential to go all in - that's exactly one of the strengths of the deck as is.

LDV is strong because it is an instant and easier on your colors. It does still work mid-combo as well if you really need it to because you still have brainstorms, ponders, and probes in your hand. Although that usually isn't relevant.

Overall, by adding LED and Burning Wish, you've diminished 2 of the major strengths of the deck. You don't need to commit your entire hand or dump 7 card draws to LED making mana. And you need a very minimal amount of mana to actually combo off as a single dark ritual pays for all of your combo pieces. You've turned a cheap 2 card combo into a more expensive 2 card combo and added LED's to compensate for that. I can't see how that is worth the trade for the very small fizzle rate of the current build.

Do we need more detail in the opening post about what we've tested, tried, cut, and why?

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I question the amount of times the deck actually goes infinite. It seems a lot of this is predicated on being infinite but after getting griselbrand in play, if you have played a land during the turn, you have very few mana sources in which to go off. It puts a lot of burden on Lotus Petal and having multiple dark rituals which would be the same problem with the Burning Wish version just without problem of color requirements.

Children of Korlis is worse in my version but I think it's purposeful because Burning Wish finds you a lot of the cards you would have wanted to be drawing anyway. Children of Korlis engine is really powerful so that is a reasonable argument against the Burning Wish version. However, in both versions, if you get to recur Children even a single time the game is most likely over anyway and while I sometimes have to jump through a hoop of a color requirement to make it happen, I think that normal TinFins does too. Tundra is pretty poor in the deck and casting it through a Lotus Petal has the same amount of upkeep as it does in the Burning Wish version. TinFins is way more streamlined in terms of trying to do the same thing over and over though, which I understand is an upside to the deck.

My version also doesn't kill through Emrakul very often either so their is an argument I should cut it and run a reanimate or something of that sort. I have killed through Emrakul a non-zero amount however.

While LED does force me to discard my hand, it's not often used on turn 1-2. It's like playing any all in combo, you go for it when you can afford to or have no other choice. LED doesn't make ANT more of an all in deck than TinFins. Cracking LED to discard Griselbrand is not that much worse than 2-for-1ing yourself with discard because if it wins you the game you don't really care all that much. LED, in my mind, is more important when going off post-Griselbrand in which I felt the deck didn't make enough mana. I do agree that I have less discard but I think in the current metagame that has opted to have less permission that it is still fine.

I think testing LED and Burning Wish separately isn't the same as playing them together. As before, I'm a testing group of one, which doesn't really help in quantity of results. Not saying anybody needs to help out but I have done decently well with it on MTGO when I was working on it. TinFins has put up great results in the past but is not really in favor as a combo deck at the moment. I think that trying different combinations and configurations can't hurt even if it turns out they are worse. I think my version of the deck has solved some issues and the new ones it's creates are ones I believe could not matter. If it seems that I'm trying to make the assertion that my version is better, that's not the intent, rather just trying to see if others would be willing to participate in trying to see if this different direction could bring the deck back as a combo deck of choice.

I don't want it to be a combo deck of choice. I like my "from left field" advantage. It feels like playing Belcher, only better. That said, I think making day 2 with this deck at a 4000 person Grand Prix shows it is at least in contention for that title already.

I should point out, or reiterate if this if it has already been mentioned, but to everyone looking at the deck and seeing the transformation, remember that it's not a sustainable strategy in the long term, especially if you are playing in non open/ gp tournaments or MTGO. Once people catch on, the DDFT transform can lose a lot of its power.

If you want to play the deck for a period of time longer than 2 or 3 tournaments, learn how to play with the reactive sideboard. Once you have a grasp on that, it makes the transformations that much better, since you'll have a better feel for the deck.

Side note, if we had to write about the things we've tried in the past, we could probably have enough to write a book explaining it all.

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Originally Posted by Pomegrant

I question the amount of times the deck actually goes infinite. It seems a lot of this is predicated on being infinite but after getting griselbrand in play, if you have played a land during the turn, you have very few mana sources in which to go off. It puts a lot of burden on Lotus Petal and having multiple dark rituals which would be the same problem with the Burning Wish version just without problem of color requirements.

Children of Korlis is worse in my version but I think it's purposeful because Burning Wish finds you a lot of the cards you would have wanted to be drawing anyway. Children of Korlis engine is really powerful so that is a reasonable argument against the Burning Wish version. However, in both versions, if you get to recur Children even a single time the game is most likely over anyway and while I sometimes have to jump through a hoop of a color requirement to make it happen, I think that normal TinFins does too. Tundra is pretty poor in the deck and casting it through a Lotus Petal has the same amount of upkeep as it does in the Burning Wish version. TinFins is way more streamlined in terms of trying to do the same thing over and over though, which I understand is an upside to the deck.

My version also doesn't kill through Emrakul very often either so their is an argument I should cut it and run a reanimate or something of that sort. I have killed through Emrakul a non-zero amount however.

While LED does force me to discard my hand, it's not often used on turn 1-2. It's like playing any all in combo, you go for it when you can afford to or have no other choice. LED doesn't make ANT more of an all in deck than TinFins. Cracking LED to discard Griselbrand is not that much worse than 2-for-1ing yourself with discard because if it wins you the game you don't really care all that much. LED, in my mind, is more important when going off post-Griselbrand in which I felt the deck didn't make enough mana. I do agree that I have less discard but I think in the current metagame that has opted to have less permission that it is still fine.

I think testing LED and Burning Wish separately isn't the same as playing them together. As before, I'm a testing group of one, which doesn't really help in quantity of results. Not saying anybody needs to help out but I have done decently well with it on MTGO when I was working on it. TinFins has put up great results in the past but is not really in favor as a combo deck at the moment. I think that trying different combinations and configurations can't hurt even if it turns out they are worse. I think my version of the deck has solved some issues and the new ones it's creates are ones I believe could not matter. If it seems that I'm trying to make the assertion that my version is better, that's not the intent, rather just trying to see if others would be willing to participate in trying to see if this different direction could bring the deck back as a combo deck of choice.

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On Chiildren: as mentioned in a couple previous posts. I agree that Tundra was an awful choice in my list. It should have been Underground Sea or Gemstone Mine. But... I think I cast Children once off of a scrubland through 15 rounds maybe? The IMS situation is different, because you just need a black source, dark ritual, entomb (or Children + discard), and shallow grave (or reanimate) - same as making the initial Griselbrand. Not multiple rituals or anything. As soon as you have Griselbrand in play and make Children, the game is over. Children are usually made usually by Entomb, not by casting them. If you're fizzling because you can't find mana to cast Children, that may be your issue. Color requirements are very easy in the current list because of that, and why the one basic land I ran was a swamp. It casts every business spell you have.

ANT is different because they are primarily a Past in Flames deck these days, and furthermore they are set up to play a slow game. The idea behind this deck is to throw haymakers continuously until they run out of countermagic. ANT is very disruptive with lots of scultping and looks for a specific opening. They have the ability to do that because their cards aren't card disadvantage like this decks are (Entomb, Chrome Mox, Self Discard, LDV in the UB version). If they do get disrupted, they can flash back Past in Flames and cast it all again. Very different style of deck. If we go all in with LED, we're dumping not only Griselbrand, but also the Ponders and Brainstorms that would allow us to dig out. If you're playing this deck by waiting for a specific opening and then going for it, then you're playing it very differently than I (and most others) that I know.

Well, I made my points, and you disagree with them. Agree to disagree I guess. I'm not saying don't test it. I'm just trying to point out what I believe you're giving up by doing that based on my testing. If I ever get drunk enough to want to play on MTGO, maybe I'll give a version like that a whirl too, just to see.

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Originally Posted by Acclimation

I should point out, or reiterate if this if it has already been mentioned, but to everyone looking at the deck and seeing the transformation, remember that it's not a sustainable strategy in the long term, especially if you are playing in non open/ gp tournaments or MTGO. Once people catch on, the DDFT transform can lose a lot of its power.

If you want to play the deck for a period of time longer than 2 or 3 tournaments, learn how to play with the reactive sideboard. Once you have a grasp on that, it makes the transformations that much better, since you'll have a better feel for the deck.

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Yeah, that's pretty true. I wouldn't be afraid to take that to large events, but it's too easy to metagame against all of it. That's actually why I stopped running the deck at all locally for the past couple of years - it's just too easy to hate out. Well that, and deathrite shamans were EVERYWHERE locally for a long time and Tin Fins was a casualty of that.

The ideal case for the deck is a good reactive sideboard. The problem I've always had is being able to beat diverse hate while not diluting your deck during sideboarding. That's very difficult. Things that could fix that: 1. some kind of maindeck anti-hate that can serve double duty (like being able to self target with discard). 2. Unban Mystical Tutor.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Acclimation

Side note, if we had to write about the things we've tried in the past, we could probably have enough to write a book explaining it all.

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Maybe we should! smennen's Gush book was successful! Look at those trash e-book SCG was peddling! We can do better than that

So could a monkey with a letterboard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by .dk

Yeah, that's pretty true. I wouldn't be afraid to take that to large events, but it's too easy to metagame against all of it. That's actually why I stopped running the deck at all locally for the past couple of years - it's just too easy to hate out. Well that, and deathrite shamans were EVERYWHERE locally for a long time and Tin Fins was a casualty of that.

The ideal case for the deck is a good reactive sideboard. The problem I've always had is being able to beat diverse hate while not diluting your deck during sideboarding. That's very difficult. Things that could fix that: 1. some kind of maindeck anti-hate that can serve double duty (like being able to self target with discard). 2. Unban Mystical Tutor.


Maybe we should! smennen's Gush book was successful! Look at those trash e-book SCG was peddling! We can do better than that

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Can I get a doctorate in Tinfins?

Also, I've never felt bad about the reactive board, but I also prefer that style of play. I would love to see Mystical Tutor unbanned, or an Entomb-esque card that doesn't cost more than 3 mana.

I was reconsidering adding Grim Tutor to the deck, mostly because I have a NM one that's being under utilized, and also to have more tutor power in the deck.

Pros: Find any card in deck, castable off of Rit
Cons: 3 mana, 3 life, slow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Acclimation

Can I get a doctorate in Tinfins?

Also, I've never felt bad about the reactive board, but I also prefer that style of play. I would love to see Mystical Tutor unbanned, or an Entomb-esque card that doesn't cost more than 3 mana.

I was reconsidering adding Grim Tutor to the deck, mostly because I have a NM one that's being under utilized, and also to have more tutor power in the deck.

Pros: Find any card in deck, castable off of Rit
Cons: 3 mana, 3 life, slow.

---

Maybe I just need to practice more with your boarding suggestions. Or maybe it was variance. Who knows - I just always felt like I was diluting too much and not drawing the stuff I wanted. Well that and I was just running into a lot of hateful decks.

Grim Tutor... yeah the one I still have (also NM!) has been rotting doing nothing too... but I don't really see how it's better than LDV. LDV tutors a card to your hand on T3 as well, essentially, and you pay for the cost on T2. Seems better aside from the card disadvantage? Also happens to make an Underground Sea with Chrome Mox!

Doomsday SB.

From DD and the pile alone, I can see a storm counts of 7-8 or maybe 9 with additional mana (unless you are sac-ing islands to chain). Assuming you need to storm to 10, are you doing this via 2-3 spells pre-DD (like DR or Petal)? Or am I missing something with the piles?

Leading on from this, what turn are you typically seeking to resolve DD; and what’s the average mana you have available pre-DD (BBB+1U or more).

Trying to get a feel for how aggressive to be with DD.

edited: chains LED/Petal generating.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alastair

Doomsday SB.

From DD and the pile alone, I can see a storm counts of 7-8 or maybe 9 with additional mana (unless you are sac-ing islands to chain). Assuming you need to storm to 10, are you doing this via 2-3 spells pre-DD (like DR or Petal)? Or am I missing something with the piles?

Leading on from this, what turn are you typically seeking to resolve DD; and what’s the average mana you have available pre-DD (BBB+1U or more).

Trying to get a feel for how aggressive to be with DD.

edited: chains LED/Petal generating.

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Yes, you would either need to be able to cast 5 spells excluding the 5 from the DD pile or be able to Chain a couple of Petals/Tops/Led's. With 4 innitial cards in hand you can also get there by T2 requiring you to have LED, Rit, DD, Probe into IU, CoV, LED, Probe, ToA and have a Island and Swamp available. Offcourse you could do it T1 if you have a Petal instead of a second land.
Also i had a different pile to go of T1 with Land, IU, Brainstorm, 2x DR, DD, Petal making Probe, Led, DR, DR, ToA. So many option, i'm loving it.

Offcourse having access to Burning Wish in most regular DD lists making the piles more aggresive, but i also love about this list that ToA is mainboard and the Shelldock/Emrakul is the alternative route.

As I mentioned in my post, the storm counts are just from casting Doomsday off of lands and then going through the pile and casting those. If you need more storm than that, then you'll need to cast more spells (Petals, Thoughtseize, Dark Ritual, etc.) before Doomsday.

And as to what turn... that is very dependent on both your hand and your matchup. This is a pretty not helpful answer, but really you want to resolve it when you can win the game. Again, I would highly recommend researching DDFT as a deck to get a better feel for how Doomsday works and what you want to be doing.

So unfortunately I wasn't able to play the deck this past weekend, but I have played the deck a few more times on MODO and I think the original list is very good, I did like the addition of treasure cruise to the board sometimes burning wish can be a dead card in that case you can turn it into ancestral recall, I also agree that the deck is in a good spot right now with decks only playing daze and FoW. What I don't agree is with cutting abrupt decay, I think they are very important if you want to beat miracles.

BTW I am probably going to stream me playing the deck this week at the 11pm (easter time) daily: http://www.twitch.tv/romariovidal

So I have decided to play side events at GP Denver with the following list, give or take. Take that, Cruise. I often chicken out of playing combo in bigger tournaments, but I've got this terrible itch to play combo, so I think if I prepare, I'll be up for it. I had a bad experience with storm once (ironically it was Doomsday Tendrils)...

MD: 61

1 Children of Korlis
2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Careful Study
2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate
4 Dark Ritual

4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Diamond

1 Swamp
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta

SB: 14

3 Chain of Vapor
2 Massacre
2 Pithing Needle
2 Serenity
3 Silence
2 Surgical Extraction

.dk, Richard, you guys going to be there in January? Anyone else going? I don't play standard, so I'm either paying $40 and dropping after I get my Playmat and Gris(!), or borrowing a deck from a buddy until the Legacy/Modern events start and dropping then.

Acclimation, if I were to want a 61st card, what would you recommend? Anyone else have an opinion on the matter?

EDIT: I added the 4th G. Probe in the main and dropped 1 Silence from the board to leave it at 14.
-ABC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

So I have decided to play side events at GP Denver with the following list, give or take. Take that, Cruise. I often chicken out of playing combo in bigger tournaments, but I've got this terrible itch to play combo, so I think if I prepare, I'll be up for it. I had a bad experience with storm once (ironically it was Doomsday Tendrils)...

MD: 60
1 Children of Korlis
2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Careful Study
2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate
4 Dark Ritual

4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Diamond

1 Swamp
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta

SB: 15
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Massacre
2 Pithing Needle
2 Serenity
4 Silence
2 Surgical Extraction

.dk, Richard, you guys going to be there in January? Anyone else going? I don't play standard, so I'm either paying $40 and dropping after I get my Playmat and Gris(!), or borrowing a deck from a buddy until the Legacy/Modern events start and dropping then.

Acclimation, if I were to want a 61st card, what would you recommend? Anyone else have an opinion on the matter?

-ABC

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I would do Probe, since it's essentially free as a 61st card, but that's just me. 61 cards works really well when you have a 14 card sideboard, for those random matches where you can side out a land to be a little bit faster (which, my sideboard is 3 Silence, only difference between yours and mine).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

.dk, Richard, you guys going to be there in January? Anyone else going? I don't play standard, so I'm either paying $40 and dropping after I get my Playmat and Gris(!), or borrowing a deck from a buddy until the Legacy/Modern events start and dropping then.

Acclimation, if I were to want a 61st card, what would you recommend? Anyone else have an opinion on the matter?

-ABC

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I will be there judging but theres a good chance I will be running or trying to check out the legacy side events in which Ill look for you

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

.dk, Richard, you guys going to be there in January? Anyone else going? I don't play standard, so I'm either paying $40 and dropping after I get my Playmat and Gris(!), or borrowing a deck from a buddy until the Legacy/Modern events start and dropping then.

Acclimation, if I were to want a 61st card, what would you recommend? Anyone else have an opinion on the matter?

-ABC

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I would second the Probe as 61st for the same reason Acclimation said. Was wondering though, how have Careful Studies been with only 2 Griselbrand and 1 Emrakul in the deck?

And yeah, I'll be at GP Denver. Still undecided if I'm playing in the main event... probably, just for shits and giggles. But I'll definitely be rocking some legacy in side events. :)

This is my actual list on Mtgo:

Lands: 13
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Scrubland
2 Flooded Strand
2 Marshflats

Creatures: 4
2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul
1 Children of Korlis

Spells: 43
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryos Vengeance
4 Lotus Petal
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Tendrils
4 Dark Ritual
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Diamond

Sideboard:
4 Cabal ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Preordain
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames

I side out: 4 Entomb, 4 Shallow Grave, 3 Goryos Vengeance, 4 Creatures

This is quite funny, opponents playing meddling mage naming entomb or pithing needle naming Griselbrand after Boarding. Nice Try :-D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

.dk, Richard, you guys going to be there in January? Anyone else going? I don't play standard, so I'm either paying $40 and dropping after I get my Playmat and Gris(!), or borrowing a deck from a buddy until the Legacy/Modern events start and dropping then.

Acclimation, if I were to want a 61st card, what would you recommend? Anyone else have an opinion on the matter?

-ABC

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Nope. I'll be up to my tits in liquor and hot springs that whole weekend. Keep an eye out for Russian Treefolks for me!

Oh yeah, I took my same 75 (I forgot to swap out Tundra for USea) to a local last night. Didn't take detailed notes, but here is what I remember:

Round 1 - UR Delver
Lost the die roll, won in 3 games. I remember I mulliganed pretty low in the game I lost, and just couldn't find the pieces I needed while he resolved a Treasure Cruise and out gunned me.

Round 2 - Imperial Bomberman (Wanderlust)
I won the die roll, won in 3 games. While Tin Fins is favored here due to speed, it was still difficult as Wanderlust is a good friend and knows exactly what the deck is doing. So no surprises from transformations or anything. I win Game 1 as he mulligans looking for his maindeck Nihil Spellbomb. I had T1 Probe > Therapy regardless (He mulled to 4, and I ended up ripping 2 Sensei's Divining Tops out of his hand - ouch). G2 I transform into Doomsday, as I know he has graveyard hate and lots of ways to tutor for it (Trinket Mage, Enlightened Tutor, etc). He has Karakas and Canonist in play. I plan on going Doomsday -> Shelldock with Pithing Needle on Karakas. I don't remember exactly what happened, but I think I screwed up what I Chain of Vapored post Doomsday, and ended up getting beat down by Imperial Recuiters and Meddling Mage for the win. That's right... I Chain of Vapored Canonist and discarded it, when I should have discarded the Imperial Recruiter in his hand which ended up fetching Meddling Mage naming Emrakul. Sad. Game 3 I believe he mulliganed into oblivion and I Doomsday->Tendrils.

Round 3 - Death and Taxes
I don't really remember much about this match other than I won in 2 games. Game 2 I know I bounced Thalia with Chain of Vapor end step, and then next turn Doomsday -> Tendrils for exactsies. He had a creature in play, a Sword in hand, and a plains open, but didn't see the line that would have saved him.

Round 4 - Jund
I lost this die roll. He goes T1 Deathrite Shaman. I go T1 Swamp, Entomb->Griselbrand, Lotus Petal, Reanimate, Lotus Petal, Children of Korlis. Kill you. Game 2... he goes T1 Deathrite Shaman. I go T1 Scrubland, Ritual, Ritual, Sensei's Divining Top, LED, Doomsday, Kill you. He's a little salty. Don't blame him...

Anyway... that puts me at 16-3 in my sanctioned matches with this deck in the last couple of weeks... The more I was thinking about it (and talking to Wanderlust), it seems like this deck's only bad matchups are BUG Delver and even faster combo decks (Belcher, Oops). This deck is insane.

Richard: Which hot springs? I work literally 2 blocks away from the hot springs in Glenwood. Also, which treefolk?

Nice record, .dk.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by .dk

Anyway... that puts me at 16-3 in my sanctioned matches with this deck in the last couple of weeks... The more I was thinking about it (and talking to Wanderlust), it seems like this deck's only bad matchups are BUG Delver and even faster combo decks (Belcher, Oops). This deck is insane.

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Nice one.
Yesterday played a couple of games versus Reanimator, pox, burn, affinity and elves. Reanimator was the only matchup that was really hard. The guy fow'd my discard and dropped land, petal, entomb, reanimate on Griselbrand... twice...
I guess against reanimate one can only try to be faster on the TinFins plan.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by .dk

Anyway... that puts me at 16-3 in my sanctioned matches with this deck in the last couple of weeks... The more I was thinking about it (and talking to Wanderlust), it seems like this deck's only bad matchups are BUG Delver and even faster combo decks (Belcher, Oops). This deck is insane.

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I always have trouble with Deathblade between maindeck DRS and Karakas, and postboard they seem to have the largest variety of hate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

Richard: Which hot springs? I work literally 2 blocks away from the hot springs in Glenwood. Also, which treefolk?

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It's a little ranch about 30min from Glenwood: http://avalancheranch.com/

The pools are excellent, and any beverage is allowed as long as it's not in a glass container. I think they have day passes too, although they might have stopped since the cabins have been getting more popular every year.

For Treefolk, the biggest thing on my list is 3x Treefolk Harbinger. After that I'd say Bosk Banneret x4, then any number of Dauntless Dourbark, Cloudcrown Oak, Sapling of Colfenor, Heartwood Storyteller, Reach of Branches. I really like foreign copies of cards that are obscure to begin with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

I always have trouble with Deathblade between maindeck DRS and Karakas, and postboard they seem to have the largest variety of hate.

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Doomsday is pretty excellent against Deathblade, provided that you can land a Sensei's Divining Top. They don't have a lot of pressure, and don't run a lot of counters. So you just end up searching for Doomsday with Top and win from there. You can beat Meddling Mage and Karakas with Chain of Vapor and Pithing Needle so that you can Shelldock/Emrakul their face.

I like Careful Study. I played with it in Standard. It trades slots with Preordain in our deck quite nicely. Also, for some reason I often draw a Griselbrand, even though I only run 2. It's weird, but it works often when I draw the Careful Study.

I could use some pointers on Sideboarding for the big decks of the format:

Miracles
UR/URw Delver
Elves
Death and Taxes

If anyone has any solid testing (Acclimation, .dk, Richard, anyone) against any of these matchups, I would ask for your input. Thanks.

-ABC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by .dk

Doomsday is pretty excellent against Deathblade, provided that you can land a Sensei's Divining Top. They don't have a lot of pressure, and don't run a lot of counters. So you just end up searching for Doomsday with Top and win from there. You can beat Meddling Mage and Karakas with Chain of Vapor and Pithing Needle so that you can Shelldock/Emrakul their face.

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They do have a lot more pressure than Miracles though with Stoneforge/Clique, plus discard and sometimes Wasteland. Still one of my least favorite decks to play against, but thankfully doesn't seem to be super popular.

Hey guys, i was wondering what your sideboarding plan against Miracle is. Obviously they play a lot of countermagic and some good hate aka RiP, Terminus and Karakas. So, against:

- counterspells: + 3 (4) Silence (also helps to avoid Terminus or StP)
- Karakas / Top: + 2 Needle (also helps to avoid Terminus)
- RiP / Top / Cage: + 2 Serenity
- Containment Priest / RiP / Cage: + 3 Chain of Vapor

Of course, the discard we're running maindeck will help a lot to deal with their hate. (we could even go for +2 Surgical Extraction since it could help us to shuffle their library to avoid Terminus, but we are allready trying to side-in too much cards).

But we cannot side-in 10 cards without destabilizing the deck. It's reasonable to side-in 6-7 card maximum, since they can take the slots from Lim-Dul and Probe or even Reanimate.
I personnaly would go for the Serenity and Silence, which brings me allready to 6 cards. CoV seems really important too, especially if Containment Priest starts beeing played in the field. Which brings us to 9 cards! Damn.
So how do you guys do it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Darkgobs

So, against:

- counterspells: + 3 (4) Silence (also helps to avoid Terminus or StP)
- Karakas / Top: + 2 Needle (also helps to avoid Terminus)
- RiP / Top / Cage: + 2 Serenity
- Containment Priest / RiP / Cage: + 3 Chain of Vapor

So how do you guys do it?

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Doomsday!! ;-p

- counterspells: Discard/bait with either Doomsday or TinFins, depending on the rest of the MU.
- Karakas / Top: Doomsay into lethal Tendrill's (or a DD pile containing Needle + SI+Emrakul)
- RiP / Top / Cage: Doomsday into lethal Tendrill's
- Containment Priest / RiP / Cage: Doomsday into lethal Tendrill's

On a serious note. Deluting the deck has always been a problem with sideboarding a reactive plan into TinFins. But you should only grab the most important cards and try to avoid stuffing 10 cards. Try and keep it to 4 at max and keep relying on the main gameplan. Agressive mulligan's into fast hands that "dodge" specific hate, or (if that fails) keep on going sculpting a hand that can play around the hate in say one or two turns. Sometimes you just have to accept that your fighting a battle you can't win even though your playing as good as you can.