[Deck] Death and Taxes

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Originally Posted by mrjumbo03

I play Arbiter and to a certain extent it does the same thing. Problem with Mindcensor for me, is its 3cc compared to 2 for Arbiter. Regarding the Revokers, I play 3 Main and the 4th one on the side, I decided would much better be a Pithing Needle for the corner case scenarios of needing to needle a land.

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I have not tested arbiter, mainly because I have a green splash and wayfarer + fetches don't go well with it. You still have a negative synergy with stoneforge in the mono-W lists, but that's minor enough to be tolerable I guess. The main problem with it though, is that if your opponent really needs that jitte, he'll just wait a turn or two to cast his stoneforge. Also, flash and flying matters. You could try it I guess, but my feeling is that mindcensor > arbiter unless you commit a lot more to the mana denial plan with ghost quarter and / or PtE, which is a bad idea imo because those cards are pretty meh without arbiter.

MM is indeed something to consider, but I don't think we want it. Imo, it fits two type of decks / strategies : tempo decks (TT, TA, merfolk, possibly zoo), and decks which get really crippled by certain 1cc spells (merfolk again, landstill, reanimator, possibly zoo again, ...). I don't think D&T belongs to any of these two categories, so I don't find MM particularly appealing in the deck.

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Originally Posted by tsabo_tavoc

Would anyone consider playing Mental Misstep in DnT?

I tested a handful of games against UGr NO (with 4 MMS) and it feels 4-6 in their favor. I lost each time Progenitus came down as the deck is not good at punching through early damage to enable a race by an equipped flyer. Mindcensor should improve the MU and being a flyer, it feels generally better than Arbiter. Is the Flickerwisp VS Mindcensor a metagame choice? Any comments on their shining MUs?

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Did you know that Burrenton Forge-tender Fogs Progenitus? Runes Halo also stops it completely, and with an active SoLaS and BFT, you can indefinitly fog Progenitus. Just some ideas n how to deal with Progenitus.

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Originally Posted by rukcus

Did you know that Burrenton Forge-tender Fogs Progenitus? Runes Halo also stops it completely, and with an active SoLaS and BFT, you can indefinitly fog Progenitus. Just some ideas n how to deal with Progenitus.

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Tendrils is a much better way to deal with Progenitus.

A lot of decks should not be getting to 4 mana against DnT.... It might actually be viable to Swords a Noble (definitely viable to Oust one).

Granted the last I played this deck was before New Phyrexia came out, but I was thinking of maybe using it next time I go to a tourney, but I think that sowap is not as good as solas because of the card advantage thing was previously mentioned. I also think that Batterskull could potentially be an interesting addition to the deck (I play a mono white version) with a set of stoneforges. Since I have yet to test it with the New Phyrexia out I am only saying what I think, not what I know. However I do know that Leonin arbiter is a house and just shuts down so many cards, kotr, stoneforge, fetches, NO, GSZ, and there are other, less common deck searches out there like land grant. I also advocate the use of Jotun Grunt if not main(which would be ridiculous if you aren't runningat least 2 if not 3 main) then at the very least in the side, again as already mentioned in several previous posts. The revokers are amazing I play 3 main and 1 side. Personally I don't think that my 76 (I play 61 main, I know, I know, but I can't figure out what to cut for the last card, that and it works quite well) will be changing because of New Phyrexia's release.

I'm looking for SB cards. I decided that Cataclysm has too high of a CMC. That leaves me 2 cards. Here's my SB:

3x Wing Shards
3x Enlightened tutor
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Pithing Needle
1x Wheel of the Sun and Moon
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Oblivion Ring
2x empty slot


My Maindeck is:
10x Plains
3x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
4x Karakas

4x Mother of Runes
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Jötun Grunt
4x Serra Avenger
4x Leonin Arbiter
3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara of Corondor

4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

Null Rod and/or Serenity I think could deserve slots depending on your meta.

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Originally Posted by mrjumbo03

Null Rod and/or Serenity I think could deserve slots depending on your meta.

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I like Kataki, War's Wage better versus Affinity - it shouldn't disable/destroy our own Vials and Equipment. You could run 2 in the last slots if that's a meta concern.

I think Serenity is passable in the SB, since it's brought in against decks it will hurt much more than it hurts DnT. I can't really get behind Null Rod though it blanks too much in this deck even if it does provide a powerful effect.

Thorn of Amethyst, an extra Pithing Needle or Aura of Silence could be good silver bullet options if you're looking to have broader application (Enchantress, Combo, Landstill, etc).

Kataki would be awesome if he was an artifact or equment because of the enlightened tutors in the board. As it stands, there are 4 Pseudo Null Rods, and 4 Pseudo Serenities in the board. Moreover, you bring in Null Rods against decks that are totally wrecked by it, and so losing the use of your vials and/or equipments wouldn't matter as much because you are in a way superior position to win.

Null Rod against Storm Combo goes a long way too.

I haven't played this deck for a while but I'm thinking of putting it back together. I have found Phyrexian Metamorph to be very good in other decks where I use a Tutor SB, it takes care of opponents Progenitus, Jitte, Iona... or it can just give you a of copy any creature or artifact you (or your opponent) have. Has anybody tried Methamorph in a D&T list?

Micki, I think most players now have one in their sideboards. You are right. It is pretty darned good. It is not perfect for its role, but it is close.

So I'm building DnT deck but with a budget mana base. I have the core worked out but I can't decide what the last 10 MD cards should be in light of my restrictive mana base.

Here is what I have so far:


11 Plains
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
2 Karakas
2 Windswept Heath

4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
2 Jotun Grunt

4 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Crucible of Worlds

4 Swords to Plowshares


Because I only have 2 Karakas I feel like I should go back to the Wayfarer builds of old, using the last 10 slots for 4 Weathered Wayfarer, 3 Stoneforge Mystic, 1 Sword of Feast and Famine, 2 Mirran Crusader.

Or I can try and focus on resource denial with the Ghost Quarters and run something like, 4 Phyrexian Revoker, 4 Leonin Arbiter, 2 Aven Mindcensor.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

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Originally Posted by Jabari

So I'm building DnT deck but with a budget mana base.

11 Plains
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
2 Karakas
2 Windswept Heath

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Plains > Windswept Heath, Mishra's Factory > Ghost Quarter. I'd suggest trade Heaths for a Karakas, or cut Karakas and Mangaras altogether.

figured one of you guys would know:

when using vial for flickerwisp targeting mangara can you use mangara again the turn she comes back to play? as in when a creature removed from game does it come back with summoning sickness?

No, you cannot. Mangara will come back sick when it is blinked.

Does he earn a spot in the deck??? Spoiled today for M12 release.

Grand Abolisher
WW
Rare
Creature - Human Cleric
During your turn, your opponents can't cast spells or activate abilities of artifacts, creatures, or enchantments.
2/2

Have to admit I am intrigued by the deck...been out of the game for along time and am looking to play something in Cincy in a couple of weeks with some friends....D&T looks like a possibility.

I like him, but he doesn't grant the same protection on the other players turn. All they have to do is wait to draw and untap before slaying your dudes.

agreed, but with the prevalence of blue in recent events (FoW, MM, Daze, etc) has to be at least considered for the deck to put so many dead cards in their hand. Sure, Zoo will laugh at him, but at least it keeps all other decks spending mana on their turn, rather then saving it to Brainstorm or such on your turn. I'm not jumping up and down saying it's an auto-include, but just something to keep in mind with the metagame shifts.

The problem is, in terms of tempo, there is absolutely no difference between them Brainstorming or removing your creature in their turn or in yours. In that sense, it doesn't even slow them down. All it does is blank all their counters until they can remove it. The other big plus it offers is saving you from removal in response to equipping, which Mother already does most of the time.

i think that removal in response to equip is a big deal,.... it slows us down byat least one turn if not worse

i played a lot with this and agaisnt this deck as well, and i have found my creatures put only real pressure if equipped, otherwise they are to easy to handle, and if a creature would help preventing the opponent from removing in response to equip than i think that creature may deserve a slot, because it is not like we have mother every game

btw. what equips does everyone use right now?
i have the following

1 jitte
1 sofi
1 solas
1 soff

and i feel quite comfortable with it

Hey guys..
played today this deck in a 11-men-tournament and ranked 1st!

//lands (21)
1x Karakas
3x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
13x Plains

//Creatures (25)
4x Mirran Crusader
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Flickerwisp
4x Mother of Runes
3x Mangara of Corondor
3x Jötun Grunt
3x Stoneforge Mystic

//Spells (7)
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Oblivion Ring

//Artifacts (7)
1x Sword of Body and Mind
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Aether Vial

//Sideboard (15)
4x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Leonin Arbiter
1x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
2x Oust

Ok, here is my report.

Game 1: Enchantress
g1) Tapped out his utopia-sprawl-mana with 2 rishadan ports. I play and play. win!
g2) Lost against his red enchantment. He skipped his draw step and burned me 2dmg for each. lost
g3) double shroud enchantment + 4/4 flyer. lost

0/1

Game 2: Freewin ( 11 men tournament. lol )

1/1

Game 3: Zoo
This was the easiest one.
g1) 2 Mirran Crusader = dead. win
g2) Mangara + flickerwisp his red creatures + crusader + flyer. win

2/1

Game 4: LED-less Dredge

g1) Lost against Ichorids + Bridge -.-
g2) Crypt boarded - start hand crypt - remove = win
g3) this was funny. He had the chance to win, but he forgot to bring in his Ichorids and i finished with Jötun Grunt

3/1

Plateau <3

I was worry about only 1 Karakas and a SoBaM instead of SoFaI.

All in all, im happy about this and normally i would play 4 Karakas :D

i am very intrested in mirran crusader right now, since the meta slowed down a bit, he seems like he could be extremely awesome, only problem would be what to cut, and i would want at least 2 mirran crusader in my list

right now my list looks something like this

4x karakas
4x wasteland
3x rishadan port
10x plains (or 11x, don't know exactly havent got my deck with me)

4x mother of runes
3x stoneforge mystic ( +1 cutting a jötun in the future)
3x jötun grunt (-1 for the 4th stoneforge)
4x flickerwisp
4x serra avanger
3x mangara of corondor
4x phyrexian revoker

4x swords to plowshares
2-3x oblivion ring

4x äther vial
1x jitte
1x sword of fire and ice
1x sword of light and shadow
1x sword of feast and famine

my thoughts for the cuts were sword of feast and famine, and an oblivion ring for 2 mirran crusader, putting the sword to the sideboard
what do you guys think about it, specially about the crusader??

Mirran Crusader is awesome.
Ok, he can dying fast, but the thought he can be 1 round there ( maybe with a sword ) = epic because of double trigger sword. + prot black and green ( but green is shit^^ ) i'm actually playing him instead of serra avenger because i try to play SfM or jitte in turn 2 and avenger cant be there in turn 2. And i dont have luck with my vial every game in my start hand :P

But test it pls and show me/us your results. Thanks.

K1w1

well till now i allways loved serra avanger and i would never want to cut him, ....him being a flyer helps a lot with sword triggers and racing opponent thanks to vigiliance

but i will definitely test mirran crusader, but probably in place of the oblivion rings, ... i really like the sword of feast and famine, it gives a lot of tempo by untapping your lands again, and making opponent discard is not bad either

right now i have little to no time for testings,.... the last 2 exams for this year at university are coming and i have to learn..... but as soon as i got time i will test crusader

Well, Serra Avenger is awesome, too. But i wouldnt cut oblivion ring. Because of this:
a. Play Oblivion Ring.
b. When he came into the game EtB effect goes on the stack of Oblivion Ring.
c. In response to the EtB effect, activate the Aether Vial and brings into play a Flickerwisp.
d. When he came into the game, which goes from Flickerwisp EtB effect on the stack, you are aiming at the Oblivion Ring.
e. Oblivion ring is removed from the game and the corresponding "When Oblivion Ring leaves play ..."- effect goes on the stack. Because the effect has EtB away but still nothing, nothing happens.
f. The effect of Oblivion Ring Etb removes the targeted card.
g. At the end of your turn Oblivion Ring comes again into play.
h. The new EtB effect of Oblivion ring removes the targeted card.

So, you can exile 2 cards in 1. I really like it, because some are thinking:"That will never happen" but i got it really often.

I really don't know what to cut for Serra Avenger.
Thinking,thinking,thinking... i dont know...
What would you cut except of O-ring?

i am well aware of the applications of oblivion ring, but your example how to exile two permanents with flickerwisp, how often does that happen, .... out of a 100 games i only used that trick about 3 times, so i think it is very conditional
obviously it is awesome he can remove a emrakul from game

i am thinking that i am running 3 right now, so i thought of cutting all of em for the 2 mirran crusader and the 4th mangara, since i think mangara is way stronger than oblivion ring, specially with vial out, and of course a karakas
and of course the threat of a mangara lock often forces the opponent to remove him, allmost allways making mangara a 2 for 1 even without karakas

i think the mangara lock is far stronger than the conditional remove-two-permanents-application of oblivion ring

the other option i thought about cutting for the 2 mirran crusader were 1 oblivion ring and 1 sword of choice (probably feast and famine.... at least in my list)
i think the rest of the cards is too important but i could see going a 3/3 split with serra avanger and crusader but i would never go under 3 serra avanger, since he is one of the most aggressive creatures we have

did you ever drop 2 serra avanger at once?, the face of the opponent in that case is just awesome

in your case/list i would probably cut the following cards for serra avanger:

1x jötun (depends on meta)
1x oblivion ring (i do not think he is strong enough to deserve 3 slots)
1x mirran crusader / 1x flickerwisp (whichever you prefer)

in that case you will have room for 3 serra avanger, and still keep 3-4 flickerwisp and 3-4 mirran crusader

i have to admit a am a big fan of 3-offs to make room for other stuff

Yeah, i did.
But do you ever dropped 2 crusader at once? in the same round like avenger (T3)

I'm a fan of 3-offs too but you really has to play the good cards as 4-offs. There is no chance to cut them in my opinion, or you cut them to 0. But a 3/3 split sounds nice.
Ehm in 100 games i think 25 games with o-ring + flickerwisp.
and this is 1/4 from all. Ok 2 o-rings are enough too.

So, i would change this!

-1 ring
-1 revoker ( 3 are enough for me / 1 sideboard )
-1 crusader
+3 avenger
and i have a 3/3 split

K1w1

that sounds quite nice, though i have to say i really love the playset of revokers main, because they are usefull in every matchup and give outs to so many annoying things, jace, EE, deed, just to mention a few

as soon as i got some time and get the cards i will test crusader as a 2 off and 3 off, the 4th mangara cutting all oblivion rings,..... but as soon as i miss them the probably will go back in as a 2-off.... otherwise i will obviously share all my thoughts on the changings i am about to make (a few thoughts on mangara were allready posted earlier^^)

ah right,.... what is everyones thoughts on batterskull,.... worth an inclusion?, i have seen a lot of deadguy lists run him and allmost every other deck packing stoneforge mystic
do we need him as well or are we fine with the protection-swords and jitte?

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Ehm in 100 games i think 25 games with o-ring + flickerwisp.
and this is 1/4 from all. Ok 2 o-rings are enough too.

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i am a bit surprised on how often this trick worked for u, would you say it depends on the opponent you are playing that you can pull of this trick far more regularly than i am able to (meaning if slower opponent = easier).....
when i see the trick on my hand it often happened to me that i was under pressure and did not wait/couldn't, would you reccomend sitting it out to be able to pull the trick, is it worth waiting for the bigger impact in the field?

Ok, i think 3off revoker are enough, but this is metachoice. In some decks (for example gate, ichorid) it isnt worth to play revoker. ( my 2 cents)

Batterscull is a nice card, i think i will try it.

o-ring trick:
vs.
discard = negative
counter = negative
rest = positive

Its easy to play against decks without discard and counter.

i am still a bit sceptical about batterskull.... well probably because of his high mana cost,.... sure you can cheat him in play with stoneforge but if stoneforge gets killed you're screwed, i think this combo is too conditional as well (but powerfull), and i do not like conditional things at all^^

but thanks on your thoughts about oblivion ring.... now i am assured a bit, to take them out for a while^^


This site requires proper grammar, punctuation, capitalization, and sentence structure. Also, spell your words correctly. Please change your posting habits.
-4eak

sorry, english is not my first language, but i will try to improve

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AggroSteve

i am still a bit sceptical about batterskull.... well probably because of his high mana cost,.... sure you can cheat him in play with stoneforge but if stoneforge gets killed you're screwed, i think this combo is too conditional as well (but powerfull), and i do not like conditional things at all^^

but thanks on your thoughts about oblivion ring.... now i am assured a bit, to take them out for a while^^

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If only there were some way to protect a SFM...

The only deck I can imagine running SFM that wouldn't run Batterskull is Zoo because the decks Batterskull is good against, Zoo is already good against. Otherwise, if you're running SFM and not Batterskull, you're probably making a mistake. Especially when you're already running MoR.

CorpT, the blue decks with Batterskull are using it as a primary wincon. D&T is full of them. That alone is not sufficient argument against Batterskull. But it does mean that D&T wins plenty of games sans Mystic and equipment. So the design has no search. There is no way to cycle the Batterskull back in if you draw it unwantedly. Also, we don't have counters to protect the Mystic. Mom is a substitute, but not as plentiful.

I have tried it. I never found myself tutoring for it. It was dead in my hand w/out an active Mystic. I always had other, more attractive wincons.

Wrong deck.

At first, I didn't like Batterskull so much. My mind has slowly changed. I'm finding more and more that it is a good target off a t2 or t3 (especially off Vial) SFM. It is also a late-game house. I'm in favor of the card.


peace,
4eak

What u guys think of this new m12 dude?

Grand Abolisher WW

During your turn your opponents cant cast spells or activate abilities of artifacts creatures and enchantments

2/2


Does this fit the deck?

sideboard maybe

we got better stuff in mainboard, but i have to say he is quite nice

As long as Zoo does not come out as a real beneficiary of the heavy blue metagame, I will likely prune some of my less disruptive aggro guys for Abolisher testing and probably Oblivion Rings.

I've tested it on mws against a friend and having the opponent top tap out on his turn to kill him just so u blink it out of play gives u that time walk feeling.dont know if it's worth the slots on md,but he sure feels cute

I have been testing batterskull with main deck mental misstep and it has proven to beneficial. It allows us to protect are vial or mom, etc. One big thing about MM is that it allows us to put even more taxes on them when we port them and counter their one drops. More testing is required but so far I have been have success with batterskull and MM in the same deck in D&T.

Hello,
I've tested the grand abolisher and for me it deserves alot in the main atleast for me build. As for the deck build its not your traditional DT build. Currently when the deck doesn't curve out its slow as hell and could be easily overrun by faster decks.

The deck im still currently testing and tweaking is as follow..

Lands [22]
4 rishadan port
3 wasteland
2 flagstones of trokair
3 karakas
10 plains

Spells [14]
4 aether vial
4 swords to plowshares
1 umezawa's jitte
1 sword of fire and ice
1 sword of light and shadow
3 cataclysm

Creatures [24]
4 mother of runes
2 phyrexian revoker
3 stoneforge mystic
3 grand abolisher
4 serra avenger
3 mirran crusader
3 kitchen finks
2 mangara of corondor

Some initial notes on testing
• sols if preferred over batterskull as recursion and pro white is very important after cataclysm.
• flickerwisp is removed in favor of mirran sader and kitchen finks.., bec of the following reasons:
• mirran can deal with bigger green dudes like kotr or tarmo
• finks can live after cata and helps in against fast aggro decks and can surely hold an equipment against decks that don't run rfg spells.
• wisp has lots of tricks and can save permanents on your side when you cast cata but i feel that mirran and finks hold much more value overall.

Creatures I've been considering to lighten the curve
• jotun grunt - sadly only useful after cata you cant cast him early on
• epochrasite - is good when vialed in and is good with cata aswell but without vial is kinda crappy
• ethersworn canonist - just for stalling purposes only so you don't get overrun by faster decks.
• safehold elite - 2/2 persist
• knight of white orchid - a solid 2/2 1st striker and helps you early on to build the mana you need, im sure DT players knows that DT is a very mana hungry deck, and can help you develop mana after cata assuming your opponent drops a 2nd land and you can vial him out.

for now thats all, hoping to get some advice and suggestions.

thanks in advance

I am liking your build have you test misstep. It feeds your Grunts usable protects you a bit against combo, protects your vial for misstep etc. other wise I like your build I like crusader as a choice or flickerwisp in my meta because batterskull is so prominent. What is your meta?

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Originally Posted by timmycolossus

I am liking your build have you test misstep. It feeds your Grunts usable protects you a bit against combo, protects your vial for misstep etc. other wise I like your build I like crusader as a choice or flickerwisp in my meta because batterskull is so prominent. What is your meta?

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hello,
thanks, i forgot to post my sb, but i run misstep on my sideboard. here is my sb list

sideboard [15]
3 mental misstep
1 enlightened tutor
2 tormods crypt
3 ethersworn canonist
1 kitchen finks
2 burrenton forge-tender
1 path to exile
2 oblivion ring

As for the meta in our place, its around 50% aggro decks, 40% blue control decks, 8% combo and 2% random decks