There's a good bit of difference between answering card type and color. Every color can use most card types but do so in different-feeling ways. Blasts being prominent means one color dominates a ton.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
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There's a good bit of difference between answering card type and color. Every color can use most card types but do so in different-feeling ways. Blasts being prominent means one color dominates a ton.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
I always thought that the whole problem of BS is its power. Not color. Power. Got it?
You would ban Ancestral even if it cannot be hit by Pyrblast, right?
If Ancestral Recall was red and legal we would see MD Blue Blasts because everyone would play red. But instead Brainstorm is legal and so we see MD Red Blasts because everyone plays blue.
We also see the return of Hydroblasts to counter the red blasts. :eyebrow:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
The sad thing is that REB and Pyroblast are actually effective Brainstorm hate, compared to the few failures that Wizards has churned out in recent years - they are both instant speed and don't cost more than Brainstorm. Whoop-de-fucking-doo - is it really that hard to print something that meets these two criteria? Sure, it feels nice to catch someone with Notion Thief or a vialed in Spirit of the Labyrinth, but that's more of a Magical Christmas Land scenario, especially against good players.
I'm not too keen about the format turning into Vintage 2.0 with blue being everywhere.
REB and Pyroblast are not effective brainstorm hate: when you blast a brainstorm, you break even 1-1 on cards and 1-1 on mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
According to that StP is bad against every creature costing 1 mana, you break even on cards, on mana and your opponent gains life.Quote:
Originally Posted by rufus
#needbetterremoval
As long as the non-blue hard-to-splash cards are better than the blue printings, I don't see a problem with new, good printings for blue. Get me right, I too hate what Delver/TNN/TC did to the Legacy metagame, but there is no bearable solution to the issue which doesn't equal the impact of the "Vintage Apocalypse".Quote:
Originally Posted by H
Legacy is irreversible going the way Vintage did rendering every unpowered and/or non-blue a questionable choice aside 1/2/3 alternatives (Dredge for example)
The vintage apocalypse made me re-start playing Legacy with the hope that Vintage can grew out of it's misery and the Lodestones reign. I gave up years later, but had to witness people like Menendian, Shay, DeMars and Co. changing their position about the format forth and back. I can't consider it a "good thing" if the playerbase quarters within two years :/Quote:
Originally Posted by H
Edit:
Yeah, it answers Delver, Counterbalance, TNN, Show&Tell and TC for a single RED mana in an UR deck which otherwise has no way outside of FoW to get hold of those cards. Pyroblast and REB aren't played because of Ponder and Brainstorm or we would have seen MB play years before, but because WotC overdid it with BLUE THREATS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
I don't see a significant difference in mindsets between "answering 80% of creatures" and "answering 80% of threats"
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Originally Posted by Tao
Both of these sentiments are great examples of how poorly thought-out this complaint is. The reason people are maindecking red blasts isn't Brainstorm, it's Treasure Cruise, and it's Treasure Cruise on (at least) two levels. First, Cruise is blue. Second, because red has the two best creatures to play with Cruise (Swiftspear and Young Pyromancer) and flexible 1-mana answers (Bolt and Bolt-variants), it plays well with Cruise by rewarding the high-velocity play that enables Cruising early and often and by having additional high-velocity cards. It's not "hmm, everyone's playing blue for Brainstorm so I should run URx for Brainstorm and Pyroblast", it's "hmm, I'm already running URx to support Treasure Cruise and opposing Cruises are all that's keeping my opponents in the game, I can run Pyroblast in one of my MD disruption slots".Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
I'm far keener on that than I am on the format turning into Modern 2.0 with d00ds.dec being everywhere. And before you say "UR Delver! Blue!", look at how well Junk midrange and Junk Pod decks perform in Modern. And Delver is still a creature deck.Quote:
I'm not too keen about the format turning into Vintage 2.0 with blue being everywhere.
My concern has, and will continue to, rise from the fact that I don't have faith in Wizards ability to print things that fit in that paradigm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I only started playing Vintage in about 2009-10, so I never actually played in the 4 Brainstorm era. Considering that I only play Blue in Vintage (despite the fact that I own Workshops and Bazaars) it isn't as if I wouldn't want to have more Brainstorms, but I know it would not be healthy for the format.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I'm sure people complained, I'm sure people quit. If you are the kind of person who would quit because they ban over-powered cards though, is the format really better having you? I enjoyed the hell out of our 30 person Vintage events. Would it have been nicer if they were 60+, sure, but at what cost? I think that considering the price of Power now, Vintage is pretty healthy at this moment.
The power level point is what annoys me as well. I have decided to buy into Brainstorm decks in the new year, and it saddens me because I truly enjoy playing non-blue strategies and I know I will never pick one for a big event like an SCG even if it would be more personally rewarding to go on a run with it. On the other hand, there are other blue cards that I want to play and there's no reason to just shut myself off from it out of spite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
On the point of iconic cards, though, the only true iconic cards of Legacy in my opinion are the 10 ABUR dual lands. Brainstorm became heavily played while I was away from the game (I left before Odyssey) and I understand that it became a very important and popular card, but to me the soul of this format is the ability to play any color combination without drawback. When I was a kid, we used to sign up for Type 1 tournaments instead of Type 2 because we had our duals and Sol Rings, but no power. It was worth getting completely stomped by someone dropping a Juzam just so we could get our turn 1 2/3 Kird Ape or play Sol'Kanar in our deck without taking a million damage off painlands and Cities. Not to mention that at the time, Wizards had a policy against making enemy-color mana fixing as easy as allied-color, so if you wanted to play RW or UG, revised duals were all you really had besides rainbow lands. Man, I remember sitting down against a guy playing a R/W prison deck where he Lotused out an early Moat and then won with a Serra Angel while Swordsing and Bolting anything you might play in the air off his Plateaus. I remember when Extended was announced as basically Type 2 + Duals and it was insanely fun for those of us who couldn't get power.
STP is also a reason why creatures are being pushed now. For years you could get Time Walked by STP because your creatures did nothing and anything good cost so much that it being swordsed EOT was essentially a wasted turn. STP is the most narrow removal spell that's played in Legacy which is why it's the target here (as people want to whine about being "forced" to play "narrow" cards). But really most removal played in Legacy is incredibly flexible and potent. The two other commonly played spells are Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay. As we all know spells are more powerful than creatures generally anyway, and there is only one color that can interact with spells on the stack effectively. The only reason most Legacy decks aren't creatureless or play only 1-2 creatures is that they have been pushed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
I'm not going to do the math on potential REB targets vs. potential Swords targets or situations, but I think we're seeing where the line is drawn: You wouldn't mainboard REB even if you only expected 50% blue penetration because having a dead card in potentially half your matches is bad enough to make a difference. But if you're playing at a 4 round local and the card will be good in 3 out of 4 matches because penetration of blue is 75%, well there you go. Let's not forget that the best way to deal with a dead REB is to brainstorm-shuffle it away. I will never forget the satisfaction of playing deadguy vs. miracles and winning a preboard game because he never drew a Brainstorm to ditch his two Pyroblasts in hand to. That's the kind of price people should be paying for playing narrow cards that Brainstorm eliminates. Bet he wishes he had run two more STPs! Incidentally, he won both sideboard games.
If Brainstorm was banned Ponder would immediately become the best card in Legacy and would hit whatever penetration Brainstorm is at now in the short term as people just move cards around. I am fine with this because as powerful as Ponder is it is not close to Brainstorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
It shrinks the pool of effectively playable cards and Legacy matches begin to look the same. Look at what's happened to black staples over the past few months to a year. Dark Confidant, Liliana of the Veil, Deathrite Shaman, Thoughtseize and even though it's not black, Wasteland have been pushed out of the format, even in BUG. In 2013 Deathrite Shaman was the most played creature (31.3%) and Tarmogoyf was second. Both Jund and BUG were solid strategies that held back Delver of Secrets (20%) strategies. In the past two months, Tarmogoyf is played at a 14% rate. Traditional RUG is a second-tier deck and BGx — even BUG — is gone because attrition can't fight raw advantage (Young Pyromancer, Treasure Cruise and cantrips). What's the point of packing wasteland when for the cost of U your opponent can just find their next land?Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
Karakas is more played than Underground Sea right now because fair black strategies are being abandoned. Now you play Usea because you play Reanimator or Storm. Which is fine, except those decks will have trouble, especially post-board, against UWR decks (which include Miracles, Stoneforge, and Delver strategies, or some combination thereof).
I think there are far fewer people who find Brainstorm so crucial to their enjoyment of Legacy than there are people who would like more options for competitive cards. Even people who enjoy playing Brainstorm or blue in general appreciate a more open field.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
I share the sentiment. I'm still angry about Delver/TNN/TC but black being 3cc removal, discard and 5cc+ demons only ... because of Dark Ritual *sigh*Quote:
Originally Posted by H
I can only tell about the glorious times we had in Munich during the second gush-era aka the golden age of vintage with 60+ players slinging blue cores and Workshops (before the unbanning of Gush I played Shops)Quote:
Originally Posted by H
So every non-dood.dec deck loses every time it doesn't cast Brainstorm?Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
I play Delver in modern. Delver crushes the other blue decks, which tend to be low-creature-count control decks and combo decks (Twin and Scapeshift, which run varying amounts of creatures). It also dies a gross, bloody and horrifying death to the Junk decks.
Personally, I love it. I love having to sideboard in 11 cards to deal with Siege Rhino. It forces me to have to make actual decisions about what I might see in a metagame — what if there's a lot of Affinity? What if there's a lot of Tron? U tron or RG Tron? What about bogles, do I want sweepers or pinpoint removal. How many RFG effects.
And by the way, Modern has a healthy amount of low-creature decks. At least as many as Legacy does at this point. Scapeshift, UWx control, Pyromancer Ascension, and Jeskai Ascendency, Tron (2 flavors!) are just the ones off the top of my head. There are really only two truly creatureless decks in Legacy and one of them plays Entreat the Angels. (And the version of that deck with creatures is more popular.)
Thing is, Delver and it's ilk are inevitable (OK, TNN is dumb, but also pretty inevitable). Blue is going to get cards that are made for other formats and they are going to have completely out-of-proportion effects on the meta game, because of how Blue it already is. This kind of points to what the real issue might be, but again, what can really be done about it? It is either ban all new good Blue cards or go back and start acting on the even better ones from before. Both are not appealing in their own way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I still think Vintage is great, best time I had a tournament in many years was last year's NYSE Open. I playing what was essentially Owen's 2010 Champs deck (although I didn't realize it at the time, haha) with some obvious new additions. It was a blast. Of course I punted myself out of a chance to top 8, but ended up 9th and it was great. I think that Vintage has some serious appeal, but maybe that's just me. There is a huge amount you can do in the format the ends up unexplored, but that's what makes it great. Sure, Shops can be overbearing at times, but nut draws aside, any well made deck should have a good chance versus them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
My complaint wasn't about BS being the main reason MD REBs - I agree that TC is the main reason for the MD Blasts.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
What I was ranting about was Wizards complete inability to print actual good hate that can dent Brainstorm's presence - especially one that isn't compatible with blue. As long as it isn't instant speed and costs 1 mana at most, it's going to suck in the grand scheme of things. That's the problem. And no, Spirit of the Labyrinth still isn't a good card - it's just Wizards going full retard with card draw that makes people reconsider the card.
You guys do realize the reason why pple are maindecking REB/Pyro is TC/DTT? If those get banned,problem solved..
An incidental extra example: Ross Merriam in the SCG Players' Championship this weekend. Progenitus and two Natural Orders in hand. No Brainstorm, game loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
Maindeck REBs are not the problem. That they are maindeck is a symptom of the problem, and the problem is what the complaints are about, not the symptoms as such.Quote:
Originally Posted by rancOr_
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Originally Posted by Lemnear
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Originally Posted by rancOr_
Yeah right...
Considering that the increase in maindeck REB effects directly correlates with the increase in Miracles representation (Counterbalance) followed by the release of Khans (TC/DTT), I'd say he is likely right. But let's go ahead and ignore data for the sake of witty retorts like "yeah, right", "if you disagree, you're stupid" and of course some hackneyed strawman like "brainstorm decks" or "#GoPlayModern" etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
Don't you think it is kind of funny that both absolutely agree with each other that Brainstorm is not the problem but that they have completely different opinions about what the problem is? The cause of MD REBs are just those super powerful cards that you somehow always draw in the right situations and that mysteriously disappear from your hand when you don't need them... but the problem is certainly not Brainstorm.
No, but removing Brainstorm is going to push the format more toward midrange creature strategies than it already is by significantly handicapping combo. This is especially true since Wizards' main route to cards for Legacy and Vintage seems to be printing more obnoxious hatebears. I'd rather have "everyone plays blue, but can take any strategic angle the want" than "Combo is bad, and do everything through creatures".Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
I realize that there are creature-light decks in Modern, but the top decks of the format are overwhelmingly creature-based (including non-Pyromancer Ascension combo decks like Twin) and are likely to remain that way. This is an unfortunate result of creatures being so heavily pushed since the end of Time Spiral block, and the same thing is obviously happening in Legacy and, more slowly, in Vintage. I'm not happy with the state of affaris, but recognize that it's not going to change in the long run. I can hope, however, that Legacy and Vintage stay relatively creature light as long as possible.Quote:
I play Delver in modern. Delver crushes the other blue decks, which tend to be low-creature-count control decks and combo decks (Twin and Scapeshift, which run varying amounts of creatures). It also dies a gross, bloody and horrifying death to the Junk decks.
Personally, I love it. I love having to sideboard in 11 cards to deal with Siege Rhino. It forces me to have to make actual decisions about what I might see in a metagame — what if there's a lot of Affinity? What if there's a lot of Tron? U tron or RG Tron? What about bogles, do I want sweepers or pinpoint removal. How many RFG effects.
And by the way, Modern has a healthy amount of low-creature decks. At least as many as Legacy does at this point. Scapeshift, UWx control, Pyromancer Ascension, and Jeskai Ascendency, Tron (2 flavors!) are just the ones off the top of my head. There are really only two truly creatureless decks in Legacy and one of them plays Entreat the Angels. (And the version of that deck with creatures is more popular.)
There's definitely an element of truth to this, just like Vintage is defined by the Restricted List. The major difference though is that while the Restricted list continues to be updated (and while the updates are generally farther apart than people would like), we've had twists of history that made other cards almost as important as the ABUR Duals in making Legacy Legacy, and Brainstorm and Ponder are two of those cards. Neither card is intrinsically broken, but the conditions in other formats have made their restriction (to control Gush decks in Vintage) and banning (to make combo slower and less consistent in Modern) necessary to maintain balance in other formats. Neither Brainstorm nor Ponder violates fundamental rules of Legacy by enabling too-fast kills or a single overly dominant deck or even a single dominant archetype. Really, the biggest reason I'm on the fence about banning Treasure Cruise is that it's reinvigorated aggro as an archetype in UR Delver.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
I don't think this is the case so much as market reserach saying that WotC's best customers want a more creature-based, board-oriented game drives better creatures.Quote:
STP is also a reason why creatures are being pushed now. For years you could get Time Walked by STP because your creatures did nothing and anything good cost so much that it being swordsed EOT was essentially a wasted turn.
We can definitely agree on this part. However, I seriously doubt that it would have anything close to its desired effect in the end, unless the desired effect is to severely damage most combo and Miracles.Quote:
If Brainstorm was banned Ponder would immediately become the best card in Legacy and would hit whatever penetration Brainstorm is at now in the short term as people just move cards around.
I think your metagame assessment is wrong (on strength rather than on composition), but leave that aside for a moment. Making the comparison of all of 2013 to the last two months is a pretty weak argument for the secular decline of Black (or anything else) at the expense of Brainstorm. The thing that changed in the last two months is Treasure Cruise, not Brainstorm. Cruise didn't even make Brainstorm better - if anything, the URx decks tend to have weaker Brainstorms than other decks because Cruise incentivizes them firing it off to find another cantrip as quickly as possible.Quote:
It shrinks the pool of effectively playable cards and Legacy matches begin to look the same. Look at what's happened to black staples over the past few months to a year. Dark Confidant, Liliana of the Veil, Deathrite Shaman, Thoughtseize and even though it's not black, Wasteland have been pushed out of the format, even in BUG. In 2013 Deathrite Shaman was the most played creature (31.3%) and Tarmogoyf was second. Both Jund and BUG were solid strategies that held back Delver of Secrets (20%) strategies. In the past two months, Tarmogoyf is played at a 14% rate. Traditional RUG is a second-tier deck and BGx — even BUG — is gone because attrition can't fight raw advantage (Young Pyromancer, Treasure Cruise and cantrips). What's the point of packing wasteland when for the cost of U your opponent can just find their next land?
Again, I think you're wrong about this. I admit that I don't have data, but I know that you don't either, and there's a lot to be said for not losing to something like flooding out, getting mana screwed, or drawing the wrong half of your deck. While Brainstorm and the rest of the "cantrip cartel" don't eliminate these problems, even when combined with fetchlands, they make them all happen much less frequently. I also think that the lack of consistency is going to hamstring a lot more archetypes than it will help. The disproportionate impact a Brainstorm ban would have on combo has already been discussed to death, but it would also push Miracles toward a midrange strategy (UWx Blade) because losing the ability to throw back Miracles that it draws at inopportune moments or in its opener is probably enough to render CounterTop + Miracles unplayable (or at least not competitive) as a standalone deck. And what rises up to replace these? It's sure not combo or hard control; most likely it's some mix of Blue or BGx midrange and Wx or Wxy hatebear decks. I'll pass.Quote:
I think there are far fewer people who find Brainstorm so crucial to their enjoyment of Legacy than there are people who would like more options for competitive cards. Even people who enjoy playing Brainstorm or blue in general appreciate a more open field.
The third option is to just accept the fact that blue is better than the other colors in Legacy and Vintage. It's not like Legacy has the residual consistency engines that Vintage does in Mystical, Vampiric, and Demonic Tutors, and Merchant Scroll doesn't have Ancestral Recall or Gush-level targets in Legacy (or it would also be banned). The major shift in the meta in the past two years (and perhaps longer) is the advent of a widely playable card advantage engine. I'm not sure if it's good or bad, but it's such a major change that any bannings (and probably even obvious unbannings as well) should wait until after Dragons of Tarkir is released at the absolute earliest. If anyone thinks that the Treasure Cruise meta is solved, they're nuts. I'm not even totally convinced that we wouldn't be better off with some sort of banning, but I think that Treasure Cruise is a much clearer target than Brainstorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by H