Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
We have 4 FoW and 2 Counterspells, plus 3 Snaps to flash those back if we have the mana, especially the latter counter. Of course we side out CB. That wasn't what I meant when I said Moon stops Cavern.
You overestimate their ability to have Wastes when they need it. It's not like they're playing Evolving Wilds to tutor them up at will; they're at the mercy of their top decks. Since we can library-manipulation, we can set up our mana so that we're not as punished by an early Blood Moon.
Blood Moon hoses 1 deck, and is very good against other greedy decks: 4c Loam and 4c Delver and Lands, and to a lesser extent BUG decks (better against Delver than Shardless). Yes, they're starting to bring in Grips (Lands) and more Decays (Delver), but then that's less removal for Counterbalance (in the Delver and Loam and Lands MUs).
I'm not like overestimating that they'll have wastes, I'm just saying that the more people hedge for blood moon, the worse it becomes on all fronts.
I think blood moon was fantastic the first few weeks of the release of Oath, the window within SCG Philly, but blood moon, b2b, moat, humility, etc are all cards that were called upon originally from our perspective to deal with this new eldrazi menace but what happens when they start hedging against blood moon? It's still good, I never said that, but it marginally becomes worse and worse. It's the progression effect. I don't think we've seen the "final form" of the eldrazi deck just yet, mostly due to not many big ticket legacy events happening with any frequency. We don't know if it'll ever splash a color to deal with these enchantments.
I refuse to bring in blood moon against delver decks, I'd rather go down the removal route. Yes, I know it's an "I win" button but you're more than often just trying to not die to the board. You also don't have as many counterspells to deal with their answers to blood moon, so it's not a great route to go down IMO. If you have a plan that let's you do that cleanly, go for it.
I'm moving away from blood moon in my decks because it's effectiveness is getting more and more worse as more miracles lists are popping up with blood moons. Shardless players are hedging with more basics, GBx in general has a crap ton of enchantment hate, lands has decays now, etc. I understand that the card is still good enough to falter opponents long enough for you to continue doing your miracle thing, but sideboard slots in miracles are extremely valuable and I'd rather spend my time and energy playing cards that I view to be better across more applicable matchups, in addition to not trying to sacrifice percentage points in those matchups where blood moon is king.
It's a preferential thing, but this is where I see the metagame shifting and it's my call on how to build a decklist. Each person has their own opinion on how to do this, just as each person builds different decks. If blood moon has been and continues to be that good for you, go for it. If you scroll back some pages, you'll see me singing its praises too! But I'm adapting on how I think the metagame is adapting, and this is how I'm doing it.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
If these forums let you "Like" posts, I'd like the one you just made.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Minniehajj
I'm moving away from blood moon in my decks because it's effectiveness is getting more and more worse as more miracles lists are popping up with blood moons. Shardless players are hedging with more basics, GBx in general has a crap ton of enchantment hate, lands has decays now, etc. I understand that the card is still good enough to falter opponents long enough for you to continue doing your miracle thing, but sideboard slots in miracles are extremely valuable and I'd rather spend my time and energy playing cards that I view to be better across more applicable matchups, in addition to not trying to sacrifice percentage points in those matchups where blood moon is king.
Step away from Blood Moon vs Eldrazi/Shardless for a second.
How do Miracles players beat Storm?
1) Counters
2) CB
3) Hatebears and disruptive dudes like Canonist/Clique
4) Graveyard hate
What's My point? Diversify hate. Just because Eldrazi has Warping Wail, that does not mean you should stop running spell hate. You don't take out all the CBs because your opponent might or might not have Abrupt Decay. I would run both Blood Moon and From the Ashes.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Step away from Blood Moon vs Eldrazi/Shardless for a second.
How do Miracles players beat Storm?
1) Counters
2) CB
3) Hatebears and disruptive dudes like Canonist/Clique
4) Graveyard hate
What's My point? Diversify hate. Just because Eldrazi has Warping Wail, that does not mean you should stop running spell hate. You don't take out all the CBs because your opponent might or might not have Abrupt Decay. I would run both Blood Moon and From the Ashes.
I mean, I understand the point of diversifying hate, but you only have so many slots and the rest of the metagame still exists. I just think I have broader options that are less flimsy than enchantments. You can play blood moons, from the ashes, ruination, w/e but the decks will beat you some number of the time. And it leaves you wide open vs things like storm, mirror, etc. I just think there are things that you could be doing that aren't as flimsy as enchantments. Overloading hate is fine, but they'll almost certainly have access to more hate cards than you have threats, because some threats from us are not the best. Blood moon is very meh when your RUG delver opponent has 3 mongeese and a delver out, as an example. Magic simply doesn't work that way and if the decks are evolving in such a way that makes them have the ability to play through blood moon, why do we even have the card in our 75 when we can go a different direction?
You also cannot discount that blood moon also makes our deck operate a little awkwardly as well.
EDIT: Expanding a little bit, you can play all the hate you want, but at some point, you're going to start playing cards that are far too narrow. Moat is a good example. I tested with moat for about a week and a half, and it was awesome. Did exactly what I wanted it to do. But it wasn't being boarded in nearly enough and left me short in a lot of other matchups, leading to subpar post-board configurations. You can build your deck to be super duper hateful if you want it to, then you get belched the weekend after. I wanted to not lose my percentage points against the rest of the field, so I'm cutting blood moon for things that have a broader application, instead of focusing on being even more hateful.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I'm firmly of the belief that there are about 3 or 4 flex slots in our SBs. Cards that MUST be included are:
2-3 Flusterstorm
1-2 Vendilion Clique
1-2 Rest in Peace
1-2 Wear//Tear
2-3 REB effects
1-2 Containment Priest
Personally, I have 2 Fstorm, 1 Clique (1 main), 1 RIP, 2 W//T, 2 REB effects, 1 Priest, which leaves me with 5 flex spots, that my local meta has me running: 2 Moon, 2 Mentor, 1 Moat.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
I'm firmly of the belief that there are about 3 or 4 flex slots in our SBs. Cards that MUST be included are:
2-3 Flusterstorm
1-2 Vendilion Clique
1-2 Rest in Peace
1-2 Wear//Tear
2-3 REB effects
1-2 Containment Priest
Personally, I have 2 Fstorm, 1 Clique (1 main), 1 RIP, 2 W//T, 2 REB effects, 1 Priest, which leaves me with 5 flex spots, that my local meta has me running: 2 Moon, 2 Mentor, 1 Moat.
That's reasonable. I don't just look at it as flex slots in sideboards, I look at ideal 60 post board configurations against certain decks. I look at what I want my deck to look like postboard vs metagames, and that's where I'm at. I don't just build a sideboard for the sake of building a sideboard, my md and sb are all very fluid.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Minniehajj
That's reasonable. I don't just look at it as flex slots in sideboards, I look at ideal 60 post board configurations against certain decks. I look at what I want my deck to look like postboard vs metagames, and that's where I'm at. I don't just build a sideboard for the sake of building a sideboard, my md and sb are all very fluid.
I use that philosophy, too, so I look at my meta and say, "What do I want my 60 to look like for x MU" but I would never say, "I never see m, n, and p decks which is where Flusterstorm shines, so I don't need to be running Flusterstorm". That's a card that should always be present in the SB.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
2-2 at my local today. Lost to Elves (G1 mull to five, though it was the best 5 I could have gotten. Still, not enough. I definitely misplayed though–I had CB on the field and Jace and Snap in hand: I should have been more aggressive to stop his creature beats by flashing in Snap just as an Ambush Viper, and should have used the Jace to at least Brainstorm once to draw gas. Instead, I lost the game with Jace still in hand) and the mirror, which marks my first ever loss to the mirror in sanctioned play.
Mirror games were close, with lots of back and forth interaction, but he just drew more gas. In retrospect, I should have won G1 since I had an ETA plus FoW on top, but stupid me decided to ETA on my draw step rather than draw the FoW, attack with Clique and Snapcaster (that were on the field), then ETA on his end step and then untap with FoW back up for his Terminus (which he used on his draw step after I sequenced incorrectly. Still kicking myself over that one.) In G2 I had a Jace on 13, and he found a REB targeting Jace + CMC 2 for his CB as I went to flash in Snapcaster, intending to flashback a Flusterstorm I had used a couple turns earlier to protect my Jace from a Council's Judgment. Nothing much I can do there.
What I wanted to say was that I beat Eldrazi in 3. G1 he's on the play, goes CoT -> CotV. My hand is Top x2, Ponder, Island, Island, Tarn, Council's Judgment. I decide to save time and scoop instantly. I board in 2 Moons and 1 Moat and 2 Mentors and 2 Wear//Tear and 1 Clique.
G2 I land a turn 1 Top off an Island, his turn 1 is Revoker naming Top. I play fetchland, go, he plays an Endless One for 3. I play a Mentor, fetching Plains and Volc. I take some hits from Endless one, he plays another Endless One, and then eventually I find a Blood Moon, strand TKSes and Reality Smashers in his hand. Monk tokens + prowess triggers from STPs on and W//T get there G2, all while I'm stuck on 3 lands. G3 he lands a Chalice on 1 after making me pitch a FoW to a Pithing Needle off a Mox Diamond (he played Diamond first, then Needle, then sol land into Chalice). I curve out like a luck sack, land a Mentor on T3, take a hit from a 3/3 Endless One and Smasher, then counter with top-deck Moat on T4, then a Jace on turn 5, then Clique on turn 8. He scoops.
Not all games will go as smoothly as G2 and G3, but at least we know the tech works.
My other win was 2-0 against Infect. Not much to say about this one other than I set up the perfect Terminus G1 as he tapped out for the kill, then played a Jace on my turn and proceeded to win from there. G2 I spent early turns using STPs and Terminus to stop his early pressure. Resolved a Clique on his EOT, saw he had nothing, then landed a Blood Moon; he had only been fetching Trops that game. Smooth cruising from there. He even said he was expecting a Blood Moon but just didn't fetch his 1 Forest as a countermeasure.
All in all, definitely satisfied with my performance, but obviously much room for improvement.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Nice to hear you beat Eldrazi, timely Moat in G3 :smile: We know the tech works vs them, but the argument against it is how much application it has in other matchups. Where else are you siding it in?
Also, in the mirror after board, surely you expect REBs? Ticking up Jace seems quite futile. I'd just brainstorm every turn until I either bury the opponent in card advantage or find a CB to protect Jace from REB then go up if I haven't established another way to win and feel secure in my position.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Yea I expected REBs but I had already seen one previously and was able to deal with it. Maybe it was incorrect to tick up, but I had already lost a 20 minute G1 at that point and I didn't want to draw.
I brought in Moat in the mirror since for whatever reason people think taking out ETA and relying on Mentor is the best course of action. It was never relevant; both games were won by him off Jace. Though the other week I played this local I had Moat on the field and my opponent (same guy) had a Mentor and couldn't do anything and I won that match.
I didn't bring Moat in other MUs, though it probably would have saved my ass in Elves but often I'm at odds with bringing it in because if he's got a fast start, Moat is too slow, and he can always get a Rec Sage to blow it up late game. Though I can just be more aggressive in protecting it rather than countering spells that aren't Natural Order and GSZ. I just need more practice in that MU for sure.
Other times at my LGS where Moat has put in work was against MUD, Shardless, and Stoneblade.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
When playing against Turbo Depths yeah. From anything else not really I've seen it mostly in the SBs these days though, so maindeck would catch me off guard. Thanks for the pointer, some people may copy this so good to be aware of.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
How often will you have 7/x Eldrazi? Endless One? I'll chump block that thing all day.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
How often will you have 7/x Eldrazi? Endless One? I'll chump block that thing all day.
He's not talking about it from Eldrazi.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I remember a while ago (Read: When SCG actually had legacy as well, and the SCG grinders wanted to play legacy), they were testing different griselbrand decks, and all of those had access to at least 3 copies post board.
It's a card that's incredible hard to beat, if they are on Griselbrand, but not so much if they aren't. The card is underplayed, HEAVILY, in Reanimator however and I would play at least a few copies of that card if I was playing that deck.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Quasim0ff
I remember a while ago (Read: When SCG actually had legacy as well, and the SCG grinders wanted to play legacy), they were testing different griselbrand decks, and all of those had access to at least 3 copies post board.
It's a card that's incredible hard to beat, if they are on Griselbrand, but not so much if they aren't. The card is underplayed, HEAVILY, in Reanimator however and I would play at least a few copies of that card if I was playing that deck.
I'm guessing in reanimator you would rather play blue counters (Daze, FoW, and perhaps even Misdirection) as they can also help push through the combo. Once Griselbrand hits the board, it should be fairly easy to draw into a blue "free" counterspell.
The Hex-Depths deck is different, as they are not playing blue, and Marit Lage doesn't draw you any cards.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ozimek
I'm guessing in reanimator you would rather play blue counters (Daze, FoW, and perhaps even Misdirection) as they can also help push through the combo. Once Griselbrand hits the board, it should be fairly easy to draw into a blue "free" counterspell.
The Hex-Depths deck is different, as they are not playing blue, and Marit Lage doesn't draw you any cards.
It's for Karakas. Not swords.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cipher
I'm no judge, but I'm pretty sure "move to combat" means move to the first step of the combat phase. aWhat else would you even say to move to the beginning of combat step from your first main phase?
Sorry to necro this point but I was away for a couple days and just saw this.
Of course, a judge may rule otherwise but "move to combat" is close enough to "I'm ready for combat" that it's a pretty clear cut case.
The shortcut is offering to move to the beginning of combat, but it's offering to then pass priority to the opponent. This gives the opponent a chance to react (cast a Cryptic Command in modern, for example, or use remove an exalted guy, etc.). But if the opponent passes priority without doing anything, the turn proceeds immediately to the declare attackers step, without a chance for the active player to do any fast effects first.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Been kinda dead here lately, how's everyone doing? Play in any events recently?
How has the matchup against this new "Dark" lands deck been, for those that have played against it anywhere?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Have not come across Dark Lands. What is that?
I've played against RG and RUG Lands before. RUG is a worse MU than RG, and I definitely made misplays that didn't give me the best chance at winning.
Within the next 2 weeks I should have my second Legacy deck finished so I'll play that for a little bit.
