Not quite true. Mental Fuckup was its own massive and independent issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by MorphBerlin
Printable View
Not quite true. Mental Fuckup was its own massive and independent issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by MorphBerlin
I see merits in both arguments of Finn's and yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
I am sure as innocent as Brainstorm still appears to many people today, the banning of Cruise, Dig, and Top was not intended to save Brainstorm. However, all the blatant overpowered cards people pointed to were banned, and they still do not realize Brainstorm is THE culprit, and that's why the past lessons are so valuable.
Would Cruise be still broken with Brainstorm banned? Likely, but it is not an excuse for Brainstorm being safe. Moreover, a lot of cards are considered broken in Modern, but completely fine in Legacy, e.g., mana accelerators, Artifact lands, and what, I found Jitte is banned in Modern! The idea to make Modern slower makes Cruise a much more powerful card. Remember there were arguments fast Legacy combos with consistency (reads Brainstorm) keep Treasure Cruise in check. Again, not arguing Cruise would be safe for Legacy, but rather a comparison with Modern does not tell much.
You also agree Top is more clear cut that would be perfectly fine in Legacy without Brainstorm. I did not shed tears for Cruise or Dig as they are at least blue, but Top is a big loss for the format. By depriving other colours an efficient (and fair) card selection tool, the necessity for blue is even more (or you go more linear and redundant). I hope Top can serve as a big lesson for Legacy, and Brainstorm can be dealt with before more mistakes happen.
That sounds less like "its oppressive" and more like "I dont like it".Quote:
Originally Posted by kinda
Deathrite Shaman is bannable because of "grumble grumble brainstorm grumble grumble"? Whats the correlation there? The way you worded this makes it sound like you believe there are a huge number of banned cards that would be fine without brainstorm. I can think of one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Fun fact: Brainstorm, Ponder, Treasure Cruise, DRS and DTT would all be pretty mediocre cards without Fetchlands.Quote:
Originally Posted by tsabo_tavoc
Fetchlands are a big mistake. They are 10 cards though, and hence very inconvenient to ban. I do hope they are banned one day, or if never, at least Brainstorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Fetchlands are not doing good to Modern either, but WotC loves them to sell Master sets.
It's amazing people still get a kick from pointing out how good fetchlands are with DRS and cantrips etc. It's like it's some secret that they're graciously unveiling for the rest of us.
'Brainstorm and DRS are very powerful cards...'
'ACKSHUALLY'
Couldn't you say this about probe too? Banned in modern, restricted in vintage, but legacy players are like, man this card is totally fine and makes really interesting games!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
Is it so untrue that it fits to ridicule the point made or is just too painful to admit, that Brainstorm isnt the reason TC/DTT/DRS are broken, but Fetchlands being the cause for Brainstorms/Ponders/DRS'/TCs/DTTs powerlevel?Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
It is possible that cards can be broken independently of one another.
Brainstorm and DRS, yes, but the others not so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Even without an external shuffle source, Ponder is insane. It gives you so much card selection for so little investment. Certainly it gets better when you can look at the top 3, take the 1-2 you want, and then shuffle away the chaff with a fetch, but it's still an amazing card without fetches. It's a high pick even in (powered) cube.
The Delve spells are an interesting case as well; I'm not certain fetchlands are what make them broken. While every fetch activation makes a pseudo-Lotus Petal, that alone isn't going to fuel Delve spells all that quickly. Cheap/efficient spells (including cantrips) fill up the yard so much faster than 1 land drop a turn could ever hope to. The example of Khans/BFZ standard supports this line of thought; practically every deck was running 10+ fetches and the Delve spells weren't broken in the least. When the format revolves around 3-5 CMC creatures, graveyards just aren't filled as quickly as in formats that center around 1 CMC spells (and retarded shit like GitGud Probe).
Without the ability to cherrypick and shuffle away the rest, Ponder would be significantly worse and i would go as far and start comparing it Preordain in terms of powerlevel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainstorm Ape
Delve spells are indeed a more complex case as they are just the top of the pyramid build by Brainstorm, Ponder, Probe and Fetchlands. I feel its more like Fetches break the cantrips which create the groundwork for Delve with the ever same [T1 - Fetch, Ponder] + [T2 - Brainstorm, fetch].
“Treating dandruff by decapitation”
No, you couldn't accurately say it about Probe. Because the statement was about cards banned in Legacy; as Gitaxian Probe wasn't banned in Legacy, arguing "the banning of Gitaxian Probe in Legacy was not a way to avoid banning Brainstorm" is a complete non sequitur because Gitaxian Probe isn't banned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
https://media.giphy.com/media/glmRyiSI3v5E4/giphy.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
Are you confused by his statement, or my response?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevestamopz
My argument was that it was goofy to argue that Treasure Cruise was banned to avoid banning Brainstorm when one can point out that Treasure Cruise was able to be insanely good with much weaker cantrips. Then they said "couldn't this argument apply to Gitaxian Probe?" The answer is no, because Gitaxian Probe isn't banned, so of course it doesn't apply. So, essentially, the argument is:
"Treasure Cruise wasn't banned to avoid banning Brainstorm, which can be demonstrated by Treasure Cruise being insane in Modern, where it didn't have Brainstorm."
To try to argue this could be used with Gitaxian Probe would be saying "Gitaxian Probe wasn't banned to avoid banning Brainstorm..." which doesn't make sense because Gitaxian Probe isn't banned. Unless I'm misunderstanding what they were saying?
Why overcomplicate things then the actual state of affairs is so blatantly obvious? BS, Probe, Ponder are all broken beyond repair and need to be removed from the format asap.
Maybe its because a vast majority of people dont agree with that assessmentQuote:
Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa
I think it's undeniable, that Brainstorm and Ponder are warping the format around themselves, if paired with free shuffle effects. There is also no question that decks without these tools suffer from variance significantly more, which is relevant in tournaments.Quote:
Originally Posted by WashableWater1
There is only disagreement about the consequences towards the format and solutions.
This. The argument is no longer whether or not these cards are busted. All of them are banned or restricted in every other format for a reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Except you know, the vast majority of people actually playing the format. The posters in this thread should just make their own legacy without all those cards and be joined by the five other people that might play it.
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Now go and put a poster outside of Wizards HQ (as someone did for TOP) :wink:
I am 100% sure the "vast majority" knows that the blue shell is overpowered.Quote:
Originally Posted by HSCK
However these players split in different camps. Some are fine with there being a best shell if strategic diversity remains (arguably not the case atm), some others want different shells to perform equally, while the next group just wants specific decks to be better positioned. I mean there are even people who enjoy BUGx mirror matches all day. Everyone their opinion.
There is a next to zero chance that "Brainstorm" is written there, because I am not in favor of chopping the Hydras head just to see a new one being grown in 3 months. If one wants to act, go for the root not the sprout.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Miagi
I think that's a fair statement. The majority of people don't think they should be removed form the format. that's not ht same as them not being broken though. Legacy is a format of broken things. Is the cantrip suite more broken than the other broken things? I dunno, but WotC has made it clear that the cantrip suite is a "pillar of legacy", whatever that means, and is thus untouchable.Quote:
Originally Posted by WashableWater1
That, or do what I do, play Chalice, Wasteland, Crucible and whatever else I can so you can't play and I can. Now you can watch me as I play with myself and you can't do shit. Fairs fair. If I made a new format I would have no one to slowly drive crazy as I sadisticly cut off their ability to play for my own amusement.Quote:
Originally Posted by HSCK
My answer to Brainstorm these days, be that dick everyone here bitches about who's not fun to play against. It's not like we had two massive threads about why Chalice needs to be banned and all I was thinking is "Hey, your tears make great lube."
Sometimes I just don't care about whether I agree with Dice_Box. I like the way he says it.
Why not play those formats, then? Legacy is strategically diverse and fine the way it is; I personally am glad there is still a format that allows for multiple approaches, including the option to play cards to reduce variance. Formats feeling different is a good thing, not an anomaly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
The thing about discussing fetches as a ban is that they are one of the things keeping duals from being thousands of dollars - if you think legacy decks are expensive now, just wait until you need four seas to cast your Grim Birds of Lavadise.
Other dual land options will actually become more viable. Think Blooming Marsh and Darkslick Shores; both of those will go up in price and be seen more. They aren't fetchable, which is what holds them back, but without fetches they would become overnight staples. Land types would still be relevant (ie Island for Daze), so some decks wouldn't have any real reprieve (and would cause the spike you are looking at for Volcanic Island due to needing it for Daze.) However, many other strategies will just ignore the true duals altogether. Why play fetchable duals without fetches? A format as low to the ground as legacy would snatch up all those fastlands in a hurry. You want to make other dual-land options viable in legacy? Ban fetches.Quote:
Originally Posted by taconaut
Sure, they might see more play, but they're still (almost) strictly worse, so to be truly competitive you'd need to load up duals first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
This seems to me to be an ideal situation for Legacy. I'm not advocating anything, mind you. But if duals (or fetchies or both) are gone, you get Legacy all of the sudden become a showcase for all of the lands ever printed. You get hard decisions on which lands to include in your deck. That seems to me to be a very good outcome to strive for. Is there a version of this scenario in Modern?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
As a side note, I have continuously advocated having more fun with lands with stuff like:
*****
Lagoon to Return to
Land - Island
Lagoon to Return to is Blue
Lagoon to Return to enters the battlefield tapped.
When ~this~ enters the battlefield, discard two cards then draw a card.
*****
*****
Slopes Under the Tree Line
Land - Forest Mountain
Indestructible
When ~this~ enters the battlefield, lose 1 life.
*****
Lands of this sort have a specific function specific to Legacy that is situationally excellent, but generally not as good as the typical options. I would love to see a Legacy-specific expansion, or even Eternal-specific, not legal in Standard, that has such interesting cards in it. I suppose it would take too much playtesting for them to push the envelope with so many cards.
This is logical, but I think you'd also see an influx of modern players attempting to port over their mana-bases (sans fetches.) Are fastlands/buddy lands strictly worse than true duals? Of course they are, but when you can't fetch duals you will have to incorporate many more dual lands to make up for the lack of consistency. Likely more basics as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by taconaut
Just an example: UR Delver (simple one.) Instead of 10x Fetch, 4x dual, 4x basic it would turn into 10x dual (some mix of Spirebluff Canal, Sulfur Falls, Steam Vents) and 8x basic. Brainstorm ramifications aside, even with 4x Volcanic you would still have to find at least 6 more duals to even get close to a reasonably consistent 2-color mana-base. Three colors? Aye-aye-aye, that would be rough. It's obvious how important fetchlands are to the legacy mana-base formula. I could easily see someone in modern buying into 4x Force of Will (not too bad really, considering) and just using their modern duals (practically everything else in the deck is modern legal.) It will be a little painful for Steam Vents/Daze, but fetching a shock untapped is 3 life already in modern.
I am not advocating the ban of fetchlands; just doing an exercise.
Lotta buzzwords here. If the format is so warped, why is the most popular deck just over 10% of the metagame, and a ton of other decks are hovering around 4-7%. Its not like you can't play non-blue decks, there are a pile of viable alternatives. Its actually about as far from problematic as I can imagine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Tusks held a team event where one of the formats the cards Frantic Search, Earthcraft, Mindtwist, Survival of the Fittest, and Goblin Recruiter were all legal in normal legacy. The winning deck in that format? Just normal legacy UB Reanimator. We played a gentleman's Mind Twist in the side board of elves but couldn't come up with a reason to play mind Twist over Natural OrderQuote:
Originally Posted by HSCK
So someone played an established deck and beat a bunch of brews? I think I saw that happen once.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Yes Nedleeds on Reanimator defeated Alphastryk's Frantic Search High Tide deck, multiple mind twist brews, and even the incredible overpowered Goblin Recruiter Goblins. Point is goddamn unban some of these pieces of shit so we can fucking play them at least locally (since they're all fucking terrible and wouldn't make an impact in any other event). My team played elves and we didn't even consider playing Survival or Earthcraft because they are awful. Fuck just let us have these god awful toys. I know Land Tax, Dragon, and Black Vise have completely warped and ruined everyone's fun, but let me have some more toysQuote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
This thread really needs a drinking game.Quote:
Originally Posted by taconaut
I feel like the reason to not unban the stuff thats probably fine is because it doesnt really gain much either way it goes. We either have Scenario A, where they're as bad as people think they are so they dont make a splash, or Scenario B, where it turns out there exists an unforeseen deck that ends up being busted with them. When the gains are so low and the potential cost is so high, even if its unlikely that the banned cards are broken it still makes sense to keep them there. Except Earthcraft.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
To a certain extent. The fetchland+shockland manabase is the standard in Modern, but you do see dual lands other than those see play for the simple fact that unlike the dual lands, the shocklands come with a drawback, so the fetchland+shockland synergy isn't as powerful in Modern as the fetchland+dual land synergy is in Legacy. A lot of decks will therefore run a few copies of fastlands or checklands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
So for example, if we look at the Top 8 of the last Modern SCG Open:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=19333&d=322831&f=MO
Setting aside Humans, EldraziTron, and Affinity lists due to their fairly unique manabases, you'll notice that while the fetchlands and shocklands are the most popular lands in the other decks (Burn, UWR Control, Jund), all of them are running some dual lands outside of those. The Burn deck is running Inspiring Vantage; UWR Control decks are running Celestial Colonnade, Glacial Fortress, and either Spirebluff Canal or Sulfur Falls; and the Jund deck is running Blackcleave Cliffs, Raging Ravine, and Twilight Mire.
You'll see this pattern continued for spots 9-16. All of the decks running dual lands, all of them, are running at least some non-shock/non-fetch dual lands. Shock+fetch is the staple and most of their dual lands will be one of those two, but the other dual lands can sneak in a few spots whereas they're basically nonentities in Legacy outside of Horizon Canopy and Grove of the Burnwillows.
All that said, the Modern manabases aren't really that much of a "hard decisions"; the number of decisions regarding manabases is relatively small. For example, the only difference between the manabases of the two Top 8 UWR Control decks is rather small (one is running a Spirebluff Canal instead of a Sulfur Falls), and the only difference between the two Jund lists in the full Top 16 is (outside of slightly different fetchland choices), one adding a third Raging Ravine.
This implies that 4c, modern era Team America variants & Co are actually different decks based on switching Gurmag Angler to Leovold, running 2 more lands and similar minor changes. I don't buy it as I mentioned in the past. These decks are about 70% identical in terms of cards and play.Quote:
Originally Posted by WashableWater1
"Viable" isn't quite the most clear term you could pick. What does it mean? "Maybe snatching a T8 spot"? Then yeah, you can play Stompy, DnT and Lands, but it's a gamble on how good you draw/stack/cheat through the tournament against all the decks with library manipulation and draw, while you live off the mercy of your topdeck. The sheer T8 and metagame data at hand indicates that you are better off just playing blue shell + DRS, if you want to win anything. That's one of the issues (if not THE problem by itself).
So 4c runs red and K Command, Jace and Snapcaster Mage while Team America runs Delver, Tarmogoyf and Daze. If you're talking BUG Control vs 4c control, I'll give you that they're pretty similar, except that BUG control has mostly been supplanted by Czech Pile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Viable means: They top 8 tournaments with some frequency, and if you take them to a tournament you have a reasonable chance of doing well. Its a pretty commonly used term. If you are attempting to imply that running cantrips COMPLETELY eliminates consistency issues, thats simply wishful thinking. They reduce it but do not eliminate it.
If you look at the non-blue decks that tend to do well pretty frequently, they improve their consistency in two major ways. Elves, Lands, Depths, Maverick, and to some extent Death and Taxes all improve consistency through running Tutor effects. The other side of the coin is through redundancy. Decks like Moon Stompy, Eldrazi Stompy, BR reanimator and Dredge all improve consistency through running a variety of cards with similar effects, I.E. Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon or Reanimate, Exhume and Animate Dead.
The metagame data suggests that the blue shell is a solid place to start building a deck. However, in no way is it impossible to build a good non-blue deck. Furthermore, the blue shell represents a huge swath of decks, many of which employ vastly different strategies. The blue cantrip shell expands the number of viable decks immensely. If you're upset that inconsistent decks aren't great anymore, that's ok. But don't play it off as being an issue with the format. Its an issue with the decks.
Dude, your trying to argue with way to much reasoning... This threat has become a shitshow of indivuals screaming their opinions in trump-eque way... We only talk hyperbally here, please no differentiation...Quote:
Originally Posted by WashableWater1
"All decks running Blue and DRS are the same" - thats the level we are talking here