[Deck] The Rock

yeah the dissynergy with deed is one thing that still keeps me thinking what to put in my board, and your argumentation for choke seem more than reasonable

what are your boarding strategies against merfolk and goblins with your sideboard (and maybe zoo as well, since as you stated the discard package will be near to useless), and would needle actually improve them by naming vial, or mutavault, lavamancer, or whatever

my usual boarding plans against decks that empty their hands extremely fast (except burn, did not test that) was simply to replace my hymn, gerrards verdict, and eventually 1x thoughtseize, with 2 deeds and the spotremoval and edicts

against dredge there come in deeds and extirpates for the discard (hymn + verdict)

the deck is fine as it is against aggro-control and control decks (that do not swarm like goblin and merfolk), meaning there are only small adaptments to do (like choke for example)

against combo there would be boarded out spotremoval, for more discard and extirpates (eventually deeds if opponent is running ETW)

well actually everything is pretty obvious there, but i would not know how to board against burn, but i do not think burn of being a relevant deck, and you can still always sword your own knight go gain life, and that shoud pretty much do it i think

hmm, was hoping someone was from innsbruck, or at least austria :( .... anyone? :P

Zalachan is from Slovenia, so it's not too far away :P

There must be some people close to you in Germany, I think.

-Matt

Not that you're likely to see it often, but against Burn I would probably side out Pernicious Deed, Vindicate, Dark Confidant, then hand disruption in that order. Disruption isn't terribly good against them, but we don't have a lot to side in its place. Using my sideboard, I'd probably do:

+4 Path to Exile - cheap, instant removal has marginal use against them
+4 Extirpate - probably our best SB card against them (not that its saying a lot) since they have so many 4-ofs.
+2 Gerrard's Verdict - Lifegain? Why not.

-4 Dark Confidant - They can pretty much kill him whenever they feel like it and he speeds up their clock by a good amount.
-4 Vindicate - Too slow, not enough permanents.
-2 Deed - ^

just noticed my boarding against dredge was missing something

- hymn
- verdict
- vindicates

+ extirpates
+ deeds
+ edicts
+ duress (on the play)

thanks for showing me you boaring plan against burn, and hopefully i will find some new places to play legacy^^

I like the listing that I'm running. I don't pack any Hymns or Verdicts, but I am maining Pridemages, which gives me a little more in the way of critters and more removal than standard lists. I think it's posted about a dozen pages back, haven't changed much except cutting my basic plains for a sejiri steppe. There's not a lot of B2B or Blood Moon in the format right now, so I'm not worried about losing basic white.

Mikey, please repost just so we can keep on top of it. :D

-Matt

4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Swamp
1 Forest

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage

4 Thoughtseize
4 Extirpate

3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Vindicate
2 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

//SB

4 Loxodon Hierarch
3 Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
2 Crucible of Worlds



I don't think there's much in there that needs explanation. Maybe a bit of the sideboard. I run Hierarch over Kitchen Finks because it's better against Big Zoo. Since fast aggro is where we need the life gain critters most and Big Zoo is the most prevalent (at least, that I see), I'd rather have the bigger Hierarch that can at least hold back Goyf/KotR/Vore early on and isn't such a dog to Lavamancer. He's a little slower, but 23 lands is enough that you should be able to hit 4 mana on turn 4 regularly and you're not likely to be using Waste against them anyway. They're too fast to do the kind of mana disruption that would make it worth boarding in Crucible.

I run Selkie where most people would run Choke. I can see why most people would want Choke, Selkie may be a sub-optimal play, but I'm in love with the card, so I run it. Drawing cards means drawing more threats. Choke means giving them less options in stopping threats by cutting off their mana supply, but most people are good enough to play around it. Most people are not packing enough removal to be able to keep Confidant, KotR and Selkie off the board, and with Stronghold, sometimes I'm recurring him later to add some pressure. I think it's a trade-off; like I said, Choke is stronger if it lands early, but Selkie is harder for them to play around and it can come back with Stronghold.

The 1 Elspeth is kind of random, but there's nothing in the deck that I would be comfortable with cutting from the main (having 11 ways to remove creatures is very important, I think, with how popular G/W Vengevival is). It could be the 4th KotR instead, but I like it's cc against CB/Top and I like that it gives me a way to break stalemates late by sending creatures through the air. If I were going to change it into anything else, I'd consider Liliana Vess, but I think Elspeth is stronger. Most of my tutor targets are things I want to fetch out at instant speed with KotR (Bog/Steppe). The Steppe idea I picked up a few pages back and while I have yet to actually use it, I think it's invaluable.

Anecdotally, I just played Big Zoo on MWS a few minutes ago. He had 4 lands on the board and swung with 2 10/10 KotR's and an 11/11 Terravore into my 2 5/5 KotR's, a Confidant and a 2/3 Goyf. I blocked the vore and a KotR with my 2 KotR's and then used the active KotR (the other was summoning sick) to fetch out Bojuka Bog. There was a pause and then a "System Player Lost". Shocking. :)

Having 4 Extirpates main is good times. I've always felt like Rock should have 3-4 Extirpates main, I even talked about it back when I posted this listing before. With the Wastes and Thoughtseizes, you can often really throw someone off their game with Extirpate. With Vengevival around, it's just that much better. I think this deck is just very strongly positioned right now, and this listing makes me very happy. If I saw more Storm combo, I'd probably cut Needles and Crucible in favor of Duress and maybe Aven Mindcensor. I think Mindcensor is very strongly positioned right now as well. It's good against Survival and it's the nuts against Doomsday or Infernal Tutor. Since combo tends to be light on removal (or non-fetch lands for that matter), Mindcensor is a good way to seriously slow them down, possibly enough to beat them to death with lots of slow creatures!

Saturday I split top 2 in a relatively small local tourny. I didn't yet have my deck optimized the way I'd like (mainly the SB where I still have Engineered Plague for now), but I didn't manage to borrow 2 Pernicious Deed to replace my 2 MD EE.

Round 1: RB Sligh
G1: He Wastelanded me t1 and t2 and I never drew another land.

Board: -2 Pernicious Deed, +2 Path to Exile (I would have loved to SB out more, but my board simply didn't have anything useful yet)

G2: I play Bob, he plays an Isochron Scepter with Terminate of all things. He kills Bob and I sit back and take some Burn until t3 when I Vindicate. I manage to Wasteland/Vindicate him out of Black sources the rest of the game and end up killing him with a KotR.

G3: I Thoughtseize his PoP and keep him off Black mana and win with Goyf and Knight.

Both the last two games felt close because even after I stabilized, I was still within double bolt range. Had my SB been what it will be next week, I would have sided: -4 Dark Confidant, -2 Deed, +4 Path, +2 Verdicts

Round 2: Sneak Attack
G1: I keep him off red with Wastelands, Vindicate, and Swords (on a Bird) and Thoughtseize away his mana. Win with a flying Goyf via everyone's favorite Knight-Errant.

Board: -2 Deed, +2 Diabolic Edict

G2: Again, I keep him off red mana for a while, but eventually he lands a couple Birds. I Thoughtseize and see that he can go off next turn. He has Emrakul, Inkwell Leviathan, and Simic Sky Swallower. I have a 6/6 KotR in play. I take the Sky Swallower because it has flying. Next turn he plays Through the Breach and Emrakul. I respond by getting a Karakas with Knight. Next turn I'm able to shut him off red again and I win.

Round 3: Affinity
G1: I don't know what I'm playing so I keep a hand with 2 Wastelands, a fetch, a KotR, and 2 Vindicate. Seems good. He was on the play, I should have Wastelanded him twice to try to slow him down, but I'm not sure that would have even helped. My plan was to get to 3 mana, drop a knight, then double Wasteland him next turn and stabalize, but I was way too slow.

Board: -4 Dark Confidant, +2 Path to Exile, +2 Deed

G2: No land, I mull to 6 and keep a 1-lander with Path and Top. Draw nothing. Die.

Round 4: 4 Color Control UWGB

G1: This played a bit like a mirror match. He used Knights, I use Knights. He just barely splashed black for Maelstrom Pulse and maybe SB. The main difference was he had counters and I had discard. Luckily discard won and after a long drawn out match, I won.

Board: -2 Deeds, +2 Paths (I'm not sure if this was the right move. I'm thinking now that I should have boarded out Vindicate in favor of +2 Deeds, +2 Path. He ran a whole lot of mana dorks, so keeping him off colors was next to impossible and the Deeds would have been nice to clear a path for my dudes.)

G2: It's down to the wire. We are both around 5 life. He has the board clogged up with lot's of Nobles and Birds. I make two bad plays. I Vindicate his Trygon Predator for fear of losing my 2 Mox Diamonds (I only have 2 Mox and 1 land). I should have Vindicated his Knight and forced him to block my Knight with one of his dorks. And a couple turns later I play a second Knight and then during his next end step, I forget that I only have one active Knight. I fetch a Bayou, he fetches a Wasteland and I'm down to 2 mana. He ends up winning with his Exalted Birds of Paradise. LAME. We draw.

I make top 8 (7th place).

Quater: The same dude with Affinity. My chance to reclaim lost honor!

G1: He plays. T1 Mox Diamond, Thoughtseize his Ravager, Wasteland his land. T2 play Goyf. T3 drop a dirty Deed. Ride to victory.

Board: -4 Dark Confidant, +2 Deed, +2 Path

G2: I mull once and keep a hand with Thoughtseize and 2 Paths. I Thoughtseize and see 2 Masters of Etherium and junk. I toss his Cranial Plate. He plays Master, I Path. He plays Master again. I Path. Sweet revenge. Screw you, Affinity.

Semi: Enchantress (In my opinion its a really easy MU, but he said that he played 2 other Rock decks that day and won. They weren't running Diamonds though, so maybe that did them in?)

G1: I play, Diamond and fetch into baby Goyf. He plays forest and Wild Growths it. My turn, I Vindicate the Forest. Ouch. I end up playing not one, but two more Goyfs and swinging in for great Justice. I'm not overly familiar with Enchantress, so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not believe they have any way to punish us for over-extending. I'd like to know for sure though, if someone knows. <3

Board: -4 Swords, -2 Vindicate, +4 Extirpate, +2 Deed

G2: He fetches a forest and Wild Growth. I play Wasteland, Diamond, and Goyf. Dejavu. He plays Enchantress's presence I believe. I Extirpate his Windswept Heath, look at his hand and see a lot of white cards and no white sources, bwa ha ha. I swing with Goyf a couple times before I drop a Deed, blow it up for 3, play another Goyf and a Knight and win.

I end up splitting top 2 and using the prize support to get a Wasteland. Not bad.

I also have somewhat of an open slot in my SB. I'm trying to decide first off if I'd like a 2nd Elspeth or a Bojuka Bog better. I've never used the Bog, but I can see how it could be amazing against decks also running Knights.

I'm leaning towards the Bog, but I'm trying to decide my SBing plan for it. Against decks where I wouldn't need Karakas, I could potentially board out Karakas for the Bog. However, this would be adding a cipt land for a normal land, potentially slowing me down quite a bit. Alternatively, I could simply add the Bog and run with 61 cards. I figure that since I would be tutoring up the Bog anyways, it wouldn't make the deck much less optimal and I would still be running with the same number of normal untapped lands. Anyways, I'd like your thoughts. :)

3 more top 16 places for Dark Horizons/The Rock at the SCG Boston Legacy event...
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/s...es_Boston.html

Dark Horizons might be deserving a Deck to Beat slot pretty soon. ;)

that would be awesome^^, but who called this Rockvariant Dark Horizons?, kinda like it

@ Dzra, i got to wonder a bit about your boarding against affinity, why were you taking out confidants over discard?, i would have done the other way, simply because they can empty their hands pretty fast, and that way discard will not help you at all

The guy playing Dark Horizons for 8th place is apparently played 5 Engineered Explosives (1 Main, 4 Side). I think they mean Engineered Plague for the side.

But still, good job!

-Matt

I dunno, I actually really don't like the whole "Dark Horizons" moniker. Yeah, sure, the deck has >some< similarities to New Horizons (mostly, honestly, just a KotR mid-late game plan). However, the name seems to miss the whole reason Dave Price called that deck New Horizons - its namesake card Horizon Canopy. GWB Junk/Rock/whatever name people settle on doesn't need the KotR+Canopy plan for late game CA - this deck already has great CA with Confidant and 2-for-1's like Hymn. It just seems like the name Dark Horizons was tossed onto this deck without any real understanding of why the earlier not-all-that-similar deck was called "Horizons" in the first place. It's like someone went "Ooh! KotR! It's like New Horizons! I'll call it Dark Horizons!"

I tend to refer to the deck as Junk, but at least The Rock is understandable (if not necessarily accurate - I don't think there is any one card in the deck that is really "The Rock" like in most older rock variants, but KotR comes close). I honestly just wish the writers and deck listers at SCG et al would settle on one name, even if it does end up being Dark Horizons. The lists for the last few SCG top 16s have been a mix of all three (in Nashville results they list the deck as Rock, in Charlotte the 4th and 5th place lists are "Dark Horizons" while the 12th place, with a very similar list, is "Junk," and in Boston it was just "Dark Horizons). Come on SCG, at least be consistent!

I started using the name "Dark Horizons" a few weeks before it ever stuck really. My earliest version of the deck ran Terravores and I was toying with the idea of Sinkhole. My thinking was that the deck had almost the exact gameplan of New Horizons: keep them off their mana then drop a fatty. New Horizons gains tempo by using Stifle/Wasteland. Dark Horizons uses Vindicate/Wasteland. Both decks utilize KotR as both a finisher and a toolbox (to fetch Wastelands in particular). Despite the name, Dark Horizons doesn't actually need Horizon Canopy. We already generate massive CA from Hymns, Verdicts, and Dark Confidants. The main difference between the two decks is a Counter Suite VS a Discard Package. And personally, I'd rather be packing the Package. ;)

I totally understand that the gameplans are similar. I guess it just feels awkward to me giving the deck a name with a reference to a card the deck doesn't even play. ::shrugs:: I totally see where you're coming from though, especially with your earlier version toting Terravore. At least if our friends at SCG can decide on one thing to call the deck I'll be happy. Heh.

I just can't make myself like packing all the Hymn effects. The issue is, they're dead late game. If you've got Top and mana, you can kind of pick around them, but they're still decreasing your options. The format is too tight to handle having potentially dead cards in hand. In 1998, having a pair of dead cards is usually fine. In 2010, we've got nasty threats like KotR and SotF which say "Kill me before I get an untap or I will make you effing sorry!". I realize that the 2-for-1 is essentially doing the reverse in the early game, but I'd rather play more cautiously and try and pick up advantage in the tempo department and wait for my opponent to draw dead to get ahead.

I do also not like dead cards in the late game, so I cut all the discard- effects and added strong cards on it's own, like Elspeth, Witness (incredible with Volrath's Stronghold), Explosives and Loam. No deed in the deck, just because I don't like shooting my Mox Diamonds away, but perhaps I should add it to the sideboard.
I'm not sure if it's the right choice to play no discard. Luckily in my meta there isn't much Combo or VV-Survival :)

I played 3 tournaments with the following list going 5-1, 4-1 and 4-1. It works pretty well.

Here is my list:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
2 Eternal Witness
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Vindicate
2 Life from the Loam
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Mox Diamond
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Marsh Flats
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Barren Moor
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Plains
1 Forest

Sideboard:

4 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Krosan Grip
3 Ethersworn Canonist


@ Aggro-Steve: I'm from south germany, but there are still 350 km between us :(

sucks, i really hoped i would find someone who could tell me where, when,... are some legacy tournaments maybe around münchen (do not know how to write the citys name in english, maybe munich), and i obviously would need some people that can show me how to get there, etc.


btw. @ schniggaz, your list seems rather intresting, specially if your meta has no combo or vengevine-survival-decks in it. in that case i was wondering what decks are the prevalent decks in your meta

either way i can definitely approve of elspeth, knight errand as a cardchoice, even i would love to fit him/her in my list at least as a 1-of, but i simply have no space for her, and i am allready running 61 cards so i could fit in a 2nd deed main and 2 in the sideboard (and i definitlely love the second deed main)

I understand that discard effects feel like they can end up being dead draws on paper, but trust me, the deck really works better for it. Your argument is that we need more late game powerhouse spells (like Witness, Elspeth, etc) so that we can deal with their big threats. My argument is that we need discard to keep them from ever getting to those threats in the first place. The deck is built around CA and tempo. We use discard early to gain CA. Then we use Dark Confidant and Pernicious Deed mid-to-late game to gain CA.

Speaking of Deed... I used to not run Pernicious Deed for the exact same reason: I didn't want to blow my Mox Diamonds. However, someone a page or two back said it well: If you blow a Deed, who cares about losing your Diamond? They just lost 2-4, sometimes more permanents. Diamonds are only used to accelerate us to the midgame faster. Once we are there, who cares? We don't really need more than 3 mana to do what we want. Diamonds are only good for playing 2cmc spells t1 and 3cmc spells t2 (maybe the occasional t3 Elspeth), but after that, pitch the Diamonds, why care?

The problem with leaving out discard or Deeds is that you are putting a big hole in one stage of the game. If you leave out discard then we are sitting ducks until t3-4. If you leave out Deeds, then you have a hole in your mid-late game. One-for-oneing when they have Survival or Vial out probably isn't going to cut it anymore. If you leave out discard, you are making the bet that you will have a stronger endgame against your opponent. The problem is that that isn't the case a lot of the time. Burn/Sligh/Zoo will topdeck a burn spell and kill you (early discard will help keep you out of bolt range as these decks are all weak in the CA department), Combo will have already gone off, and full control decks were hoping for the late game anyways.

I'm not a sitting duck early. My T1/T2 are weaker than a deck that can drop Condfidant or Hymn on turn 1, but with 3 Diamonds, you have a 1/20 chance of seeing one on any given card. That's about 35% chance of having one for your opening. Given that it weakens your mid and late game with dead draws, I don't think it's worth it. But I said that back at GP Chicago when the Rock list that made T8 or T16, whatever it was ran Diamonds. If you get lucky, they work well, but I don't want to rely on being lucky.

Hymn is a similar story. You can put someone off their hand, especially one turn 1 if you can hit their mana. If you're lucky. But it doesn't stop a topdecked KotR. It doesn't stop topdecked Hierarch Survivaled into Vine, Vine, Walla, Walla. I'd rather answer the permanents. Generally, you gain a little tempo doing it and worst case scenario you're 1-for-1. Eventually, running a tighter decklist (and SDT or Confidant) means that they draw dead and you don't and you get ahead then.

But I guess it depends on your playstyle. I'd rather play conservatively and try to minimize bad draws and hands that I have to mull.