[Deck] Solidarity

I've been working on a new version of Solidarity. In the past, I've added a Hunting Pack to my sideboard as a quick out to win against CB in responde to them casting it. I've tried to stretch that idea in this version of the deck.

This deck only wins on Hunting Pack. There's some risk involved, but I highly doubt it's unmanageable with the counters and Wishes I play.

This deck cuts all the carddraw regular Solidarity uses to combo out, and replaces those with sorcery's we haven't been able to play untill now. Every sorcery in this deck is one you absolutely want to cast before you try to win the game, so in general, they won't be clogging up your hand in your combo turn.

Here's the concept so far:

6 Fetch
2 Trop
10 Island

4 Tide
4 Reset
4 Wish
3 Turnabout
4 FoW
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Merchant Scroll
2 Hunting Pack
4 Spell Pierce
3 Preordain
1 Twincast

SB:
1 Hunting Pack
1 Turnabout
x Bounce

I haven't done any proper testing with it so far, but I'll get on that soon. Goldfishes seem quite good so far. I've had multiple turn 4 double protected wins so far.

If you run sorcery's, why don't you just run it in a Spring Tide shell instead of a Solidarity shell?

Very interesting. I have also been experimenting with "pre-combo" non-instants, to work around disruption.

Thus far I have looked at Isochron Scepter, primarily as a way of playing High Tide through Meddling Mage, but it is also randomly broken with Moment's Peace, Impulse, etc. It does slow us down, however.

I have also started messing about with the Izzet Guildmage combo (Izzet, plus Reset, plus 5 lands = infinite mana without High Tide), but I don't like how that opens us up to creature removal. Gauntlet of Power and Extraplanar Lense are also High Tide substitutes, but far too slow, in my view.

I like your build, although I am not convinced that Ponder is the best card for the slot. Have you considered Divining Top? Looking at the deck list, I'm guessing you are still able to go off on their turn (given that we need so little storm), but going off in our own turn seems more viable too.

Nice to see some real innovation.

-Silent Requiem

Edit @ cjva: Spring Tide goes off only on its own turn, whereas this deck still goes off on the opponent's turn. I have long considered that there are a number of cards that I simply don't play while building storm, such as Remand, Cryptic Command and FoW.

These cards are valuable, but protect the combo rather than enable it. Tthere is very little difference, when goldfishing, between these cards and sorceries. Heck, they could be lands and it just would not make a difference.

What this tells me is the deck has the capacity to carry a certain number of non-instants. It might well be worthwhile to do so, if those non-instants are powerful enough. Merchant Scroll definitely falls into this category - it's High Tide and Reset 5-8. Ponder/Top I am less sure of.

Further edit: Does this speed the deck up? A not unreasonable hand of High Tide, High Tide, Reset, Hunting Pack (which could be put together after a turn 1 Ponder/Bainstorm and a turn 2 Merchant Scroll) puts 4-5 (depending on other cards in hand) 4/4 tokens into play on turn 3, and without relying on any combo-turn draw. Granted, the kill won't happen until a turn or two later, but the board position is pretty hard to recover from.

1: Scepter cast the tide. Not putting the spell on stack, and the spell still get stopped by Mage.

2: Remand can very well help building storm. Making the deadly Freeze into two small one.

3: Cryptic Command can and should be used when you play it, during combo as well. Drawing a card and tapping creatures etc.

4: Playing sorcery's in Solidarity only gives the deck more dead draws during combo, and makes the deck less stable. Putting that idea in a Spring Tide shell on the other hand makes Merchant Scroll/Ponder a bomb during combo. Add to that that Spring Tide is 1 turn faster then Solidarity, and a faster deck is built.

5: I don't think sorcery builds of Solidarity should be discussed in this thread, start a new or discuss in the Spring Tide thread, Solidarity plays instants, period.

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Originally Posted by cjva

1: Scepter cast the tide. Not putting the spell on stack, and the spell still get stopped by Mage.

2: Remand can very well help building storm. Making the deadly Freeze into two small one.

3: Cryptic Command can and should be used when you play it, during combo as well. Drawing a card and tapping creatures etc.

4: Playing sorcery's in Solidarity only gives the deck more dead draws during combo, and makes the deck less stable. Putting that idea in a Spring Tide shell on the other hand makes Merchant Scroll/Ponder a bomb during combo. Add to that that Spring Tide is 1 turn faster then Solidarity, and a faster deck is built.

5: I don't think sorcery builds of Solidarity should be discussed in this thread, start a new or discuss in the Spring Tide thread, Solidarity plays instants, period.

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1. Meddling Mage stops the named "card" not the named "spell". Scepter puts a copy of the "spell" on the stack, so it works. http://magiccards.info/query?q=meddl...v=card&s=cname

2. We have been down this road before. Remand does not "build" storm, but it does reduce the amount of storm required. No more than an additional copy of Brainfreeze does, though. It's combo function is a luxury - if it were not tied to a useful tempo spell, nobody would play it.

3. Cryptic is terrible for building storm. 4 mana to draw one card? The card is powerful, but building storm is a bonus, not it's purpose.

4. We are used to dead draws. It happens every time you draw a non-combo card (such as those I mentioned) or a land. The deck definitely has the capacity to deal with dead cards. The question is, how great is that capacity, and how best to employ it? Bahamuth is suggesting cheap draw/tutors to scuplt our hands on turn 1 & 2 - a notion worthy of consideration.

5. Solidarity is defined (and alternatively known as) Reset-High Tide. The suggested deck uses both of those cards to combo at the last possible moment on an opponent's turn. While it contains a number of non-traditional cards, it is clearly a Solidarity derivative. I, for one, am willing to give Bahamuth the chance to showcase and prove his build. Keep in mind that he is not some "drop-in" derailing the thread, but a long time Solidarity player.

-Silent Requiem

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

Thus far I have looked at Isochron Scepter, primarily as a way of playing High Tide through Meddling Mage, but it is also randomly broken with Moment's Peace, Impulse, etc. It does slow us down, however.

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Definitely not good enough. Mage doesn't even see play at this moment, and this makes us way to slow. There's a reason Scepter-Chant is not good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

I have also started messing about with the Izzet Guildmage combo (Izzet, plus Reset, plus 5 lands = infinite mana without High Tide), but I don't like how that opens us up to creature removal. Gauntlet of Power and Extraplanar Lense are also High Tide substitutes, but far too slow, in my view.

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Agreed on all of these.

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

I like your build, although I am not convinced that Ponder is the best card for the slot. Have you considered Divining Top? Looking at the deck list, I'm guessing you are still able to go off on their turn (given that we need so little storm), but going off in our own turn seems more viable too.

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I tried Top, and it's too slow. You are generally already using your available mana to cast Brainstorms, Scrolls and other stuff. I tried Explore, but even at 2 mana, it's too expensive. You either want more 1cc cantrips, or more combo pieces. Ponder is an amazing cantrip, and one of the rasons I want to try this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

What this tells me is the deck has the capacity to carry a certain number of non-instants. It might well be worthwhile to do so, if those non-instants are powerful enough. Merchant Scroll definitely falls into this category - it's High Tide and Reset 5-8. Ponder/Top I am less sure of.

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This is the idea. Ponder is one of the cantrips this deck is built around, and it's just way better than Impulse or Opt.

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

Further edit: Does this speed the deck up? A not unreasonable hand of High Tide, High Tide, Reset, Hunting Pack (which could be put together after a turn 1 Ponder/Bainstorm and a turn 2 Merchant Scroll) puts 4-5 (depending on other cards in hand) 4/4 tokens into play on turn 3, and without relying on any combo-turn draw. Granted, the kill won't happen until a turn or two later, but the board position is pretty hard to recover from.

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Actually, in reality, this deck is much faster than regular Solidarity. A hand of just Tide, Reset, Pack will very often kill on turn 3. Usually the opponent will either play another spell, which makes you 4 tokens, which will generally win, or the opponent attacks with 2 guys, which enables you to make 3 tokens in their declare attackers phase and kill all of them. Those 3 tokens are again probably going to win you the game in this situation, or at least buy you plenty of time to make some more tokens.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cjva

4: Playing sorcery's in Solidarity only gives the deck more dead draws during combo, and makes the deck less stable. Putting that idea in a Spring Tide shell on the other hand makes Merchant Scroll/Ponder a bomb during combo. Add to that that Spring Tide is 1 turn faster then Solidarity, and a faster deck is built.

5: I don't think sorcery builds of Solidarity should be discussed in this thread, start a new or discuss in the Spring Tide thread, Solidarity plays instants, period.

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I don't have any more dead draws than Solidarity, because I generally don't draw during my combo, and I don't play any sorcery's I wouldn't want to cast before comboing. The only potential dead card is Merchant Scroll when topdecked on the turn you want to win. If it's turn 4 and you play against a non-daze deck, you can still usually cast it. In other cases, it often just pitches to FoW. I've not experienced many dead draws, in any case not more than in Solidarity (You get the eventual 3 Wishes in hand and stuff like that).

This is not a Spring Tide variant. This is a Solidarity variant that casts sorcery's before comboing.



I hope you realise how important it is I can make tokens in my opponents turn. It can either lead to an unexpected win, or to a WoG on his side (and a win).

The more I think about this build, the more I like it. While I won't be able to test it properly until the weekend, here are some initial observations:

1) There is no actual card advantage in this deck. While it does not intend to chain draw spells together, lack of card advantage (ie, Meditate) will make recovering from a failed combo attempt more difficult. This makes the build more "all in" than a classic build.

2) Due to the above, this deck hates discard. However, with 8 maindeck counters available after turn 1, it is better able to shut down discard than a classic build.

3) While this build does go off at instant speed, it cannot win at instant speed. Brainfreeze/Stroke can win over top of lethal burn/combo, Hunting Pack cannot.

4) This build hates Echoing Truth.

5) This build is probably less fun to play than a classic build. Rather than chaining together a string of spells on the fly, you try to start with the complete combo in your hand, much the way Belcher does. Short of disruption, once you are ready to go off, the combo is pretty easy.

6) This build does not rely on High Tide. Turn 4 Reset-Reset-Hunting Pack can get you there, especially if your opponent contributes to the storm count.

7) Hunting Pack seems like the tough part of the combo to find (can't Merchant Scroll for it). Although it can be Wished for, this slows the combo by a turn (or two, if playing around Daze).

8) If this build takes off, may I respectfully suggest the name "Wild Hunt"? In many European traditions the worst winter storms were attributed to Odin as he lead a pack of ghostly hounds across the sky hunting for the souls of the dead.

"When the winter winds blow and the Yule fires are lit, it is best to stay indoors, safely shut away from the dark paths and the wild heaths. Those who wander out by themselves during the Yule-nights may hear a sudden rustling through the tops of the trees - a rustling that might be the wind, though the rest of the wood is still.

"But then the barking of dogs fills the air, and the host of wild souls sweeps down, fire flashing from the eyes of the black hounds and the hooves of the black horses"

Seems appropriate for a storm deck that kills using Hunting Pack.

-Silent Requiem

Edit: 9) This build loses to a classic build, unless it goes off on turn 3.

I realy dislike the idea of putting sorceries in Solidarity (I love the "purity" of a "whole-instant deck"), maybe it's time to consider it to make the deck more competitive.

Maybe some Quicken can be played then?

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Originally Posted by Zinch

I realy dislike the idea of putting sorceries in Solidarity (I love the "purity" of a "whole-instant deck"), maybe it's time to consider it to make the deck more competitive.

Maybe some Quicken can be played then?

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Please believe me when I say that I get this. Unfortunately it has literally been years since they printed any instant worth including in the maindeck, while the rest of the format has received gift after gift. Turn 4/5 was once fast; now, combo goes off turn 1/2, control gets it's lock in place turn 2/3 and aggro kills on turn 4/5 unless disrupted. We need to evolve, and WotC is not giving us the instants to do it.

As for Quicken, I tried it out with Merchant Scroll, but I was disappointed. Perhaps it is worth another look - although Bahamuth's build is not planning on casting much draw during the combo; it simply does not need that much storm.

Of course, Manamorphose might be worth a look if we are running green anyway...

-Silent Requiem

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

1) There is no actual card advantage in this deck. While it does not intend to chain draw spells together, lack of card advantage (ie, Meditate) will make recovering from a failed combo attempt more difficult. This makes the build more "all in" than a classic build.

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Yep. It would be nice if there's some kind of one-off I could run to Scroll for, that isn't actually bad to draw in general and that helps here. Meditate and FoI aren't going to do it. On the other hand, it doesn't use as much of it's hand to actually win. You go off a lot on just Tide, Reset, Wish.

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

2) Due to the above, this deck hates discard. However, with 8 maindeck counters available after turn 1, it is better able to shut down discard than a classic build.

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Pierce is quite isnane against discard. Does anyone in your meta play discard?

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

3) While this build does go off at instant speed, it cannot win at instant speed. Brainfreeze/Stroke can win over top of lethal burn/combo, Hunting Pack cannot.

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This is completely true. I guess it's a problem in the combo mirror. You can probably beat it by just cantripping and Scrolling for counters though.

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

4) This build hates Echoing Truth.

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Sure... Also hates Deed and stuff.

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

5) This build is probably less fun to play than a classic build. Rather than chaining together a string of spells on the fly, you try to start with the complete combo in your hand, much the way Belcher does. Short of disruption, once you are ready to go off, the combo is pretty easy.

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This is true, it's not as much fun. You don't get the insanely complicated wins like you do with Solidarity when Freezing yourself and such.

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

6) This build does not rely on High Tide. Turn 4 Reset-Reset-Hunting Pack can get you there, especially if your opponent contributes to the storm count.

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Yeah, untappers are much more important in this build than Tides.

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

7) Hunting Pack seems like the tough part of the combo to find (can't Merchant Scroll for it). Although it can be Wished for, this slows the combo by a turn (or two, if playing around Daze).

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Finding Pack is generally pretty nice, but I haven't really found a problem with Wishing for it. I'm still getting a lot of turn 4 double protected wins (4 land, Pierce, FoW, Tide, Reset, Wish).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

8) If this build takes off, may I respectfully suggest the name "Wild Hunt"? In many European traditions the worst winter storms were attributed to Odin as he lead a pack of ghostly hounds across the sky hunting for the souls of the dead.

"When the winter winds blow and the Yule fires are lit, it is best to stay indoors, safely shut away from the dark paths and the wild heaths. Those who wander out by themselves during the Yule-nights may hear a sudden rustling through the tops of the trees - a rustling that might be the wind, though the rest of the wood is still.

"But then the barking of dogs fills the air, and the host of wild souls sweeps down, fire flashing from the eyes of the black hounds and the hooves of the black horses"

Seems appropriate for a storm deck that kills using Hunting Pack.

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I like it. I doubt it's really going to be that good, but it might be better than regular Solidarity, and it might be fun to kill people with obscure cards like Hunting Pack.



I might play Manamorphose if it pitched to FoW. Even then probably not though...

Your list does looks tight Bahamuth. How are you thinking of working the board for the weaker matchups? And what do you expect the weaker matchups to be for that matter? A consistent turn 3 looks tight.

Off topic, I've been thinking about using this list (that I recommended in my recent article):
U/g Solidarity
Land
2 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
11 Island
2 Tropical Island

Cantrip
4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
4 Impulse
4 High Tide
4 Reset
4 Peer Through Depths
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
3 Meditate
2 Brain Freeze

Protection
4 Force of Will
2 Remand

SB:
1 Echoing Truth
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Rebuild
1 Brain Freeze
1 Stroke of Genius
2 Krosan Grip
3 Moments Peace
3 Autumn’s Veil

Thoughts on this approach? I think Veil is too good to pass up. It gives us a leg up against control. I think our control matchups are practically byes at this point. I'm still torn between Moment's Peace and Tangle... I'm not sure which one will work better.

Also, more on topic... might boarding in multiple Hunting Pack's be a better plan than Moment's Peace? If thats been working out in your list Bahamuth then maybe we can port it over to the U/g list.

Silent Requiem. Hmm I take back my claim. The copies are not cards, and can be cast against MM. =) Tricky one thou.

Varix, I really like your 19th land.

I've been playing around with 20 land, and I like that I don't have to work as hard to make my land drops, leaving me more time to find my combo pieces and protection. It also makes Opt far less necessary.

Although these are added dead cards while comboing, Peer Through Depths is good at bypassing land, and it also makes Brainstorm more valuable by giving you an additional way to move the dead cards off the top of your library. Have you considered making that extra land a fetchland, however?

On the other hand, Bahumuth's list only cares about the first three land drops (although 4 is nice), so if the deck is heading in that direction, the extra land might be unnecessary.

One of the things that impressed my the most about Dream Halls was the number of different ways I had to "get there". I could Show and Tell Progenitus, Show and Tell Dream Halls, or, later in the game, simply hardcast Dream Halls. This makes the deck really hard to shut down.

I was trying to find something similar for Solidarity, which is why I was experimenting with Izzet Guildmage. Hunting Pack seems to offer something similar, if only because the storm requirements are so low. In the past, our combo has been High Tide, Reset/Turnabout, Meditate... Brainfreeze. Hunting Pack can get there on just Reset, or on Tide and Turnabout, or (if the game lasts long enough) just Turnabout. This also makes us pretty hard to hate out.

That said, I like the Solidarity playstyle. I like that, when forced to go off with rubbish in my hand, I can sometimes still get there. It would be nice to find a balance between what Bahumuth is suggesting and classic Solidarity.

@ cjva: My loathing for Meddling Mage knows no bounds. :laugh: There are more Meddling Mages in my meta than there are FoW. I dominated the local tournament scene with Solidarity for about 6 months, always coming first or second in our monthly tournaments. Now, I'm stuck in third/fourth with all the Meddling Mages about. Hence my obsession. :tongue:

-Silent Requiem

In your opinion, because the deck is not tier? Low number of players with him?inexperience of the players?

Its fundamentally weak because its storm combo that MUST hit its land drops. Dark Ritual/Tendrils combo has the advantage of foregoing land drops in favor of speed. The deck won't be tier 1 again any time soon simply because its so hard to play. Maybe if we get Frantic Search, but I doubt it. Also, aggro is one turn faster than it was when Solidarity was tier 1.

Yea. It's a rather weak deck, and a good MU are close to 50% (I would say that your MU is between 40-50% against most, if not all, decks).

The deck is pretty hard to play, and you need to focus on your learning curve.
Competative players pick something else.

Most wins you get from people not know/remember how to play against it.

Right, I've done some preliminary gold-fishing with Bahumuth's deck, and here are the results.

Mandatory turn 4 combo:
a) 4 storm - Reset, Reset, Turnabout, Hunting Pack (protected)
b) 5 storm - High Tide, Reset, Cunning Wish, Turnabout, Hunting Pack (protected x2)
c) 4 storm - High Tide, Turnabout, Reset, Hunting Pack (protected)
d) 4 storm - High Tide, Turnabout, Cunning Wish, Hunting Pack (protected)
e) 0 - could not find green mana
f) 0 - could not find Hunting Pack
g) 0 - no green mana (mulled to 5 to find land)
h) 3 storm - High Tide, Reset, Hunting Pack (protected x2)
i) 4 storm - High Tide, Turnabout, Turnabout, Hunting Pack (protected)
j) 5 storm, High Tide, Reset, Reset, Cunning Wish, Hunting Pack (protected)

Mandatory turn 3 combo:
a) 0 - could not find Hunting Pack
b) 5 storm - Hugh Tide, Reset, Cunning Wish, Turnabout, Hunting Pack (protected)
c) 5 storm - High Tide, High Tide, Reset, Turnabout, Hunting Pack
d) 0 - could not find High Tide
e) 5 storm - High Tide, Reset, Turnabout, Cunning Wish, Hunting Pack
f) 0 - could not find Hunting Pack
g) 0 - could not find Hunting Pack
h) 0 - could not find Untap
i) 0 - could not find Hunting Pack (mulled to 5 to find land)
j) 0 - mana screw

Overall thoughts:

Well, the deck is faster than the classic build. Merchant Scroll is very powerful in setting up the combo, and the spell chains are very short. I imagine the deck does better than classic Solidarity against aggro because of the extra speed, and because the combo also acts as a defence against aggro. Hunting Pack seems to be the hardest card to find, and it might be worth adding another to the main deck if the goal is to focus on early wins.

That said, it is a very busy deck. The first few turns are spend sculpting the hand at sorcery speed, meaning you give up any pretense of controlling your opponent if you want your turn 3/4 combo. The deck feels much more like ANT or Dream Halls - I sculpt a hand that I know wins if not disrupted and then I go for it. The hand must be protected, because each spell in the chain is necessary (unlike in the classic build). It's a much more linear deck in that way.

My overall first impression is that this build has a number of strengths over the classic build, but I am not sure that it is heading in the right direction. "Faster" is a game Solidarity is not going to win - SI and Belcher are just better at that. But what about slower? What really, really impressed my about this build is that "draw" is no longer part of the combo. We can hold enough storm in our hand to win. So what about playing a more controlling deck? Playing cards that slow our opponent (be they instants like Moment's Peace, or permanents like Propaganda) until we have the combo, and protection, in our hand.

If we moved in that direction, I would suggest keeping both Hunting Pack and Brainfreeze as kills (7 card hand with Remand can generate enough storm to kill with Brainfreeze from the wishboard - even before drawing into other spells or FoI from the graveyard or opponent's spells). It would make us very hard to hate out.

-Silent Requiem

IDK if this is the right approach to tell the truth. New Horizons is getting really popular. We are going all in on one spell, much like Belcher or SI, only its like an overcosted, faster version of Empty the Warrens that we can play on the opponent's turn, affectively giving the creatures haste. We can jack their storm count, and go off in response to whatever, especially a combat phase where we can make blocks, safely going off on our own next turn. Back to the New Horizons argument... they play Wasteland. We need Trop to go off, they can just Waste our Trop in response to High Tide. Also, they run maindeck Stifle, which turns a once profitable Hunting Pack into a terribly overcosted 4/4 vanilla. Considering New Horizon's growing popularity, we would be trading off our wins against aggro control for wins against aggro and decks that can't deal with storm. Is this the right call? Our greatest strength has always been beating control decks, not aggro. If we move toward beating aggro, which it doesn't yet look like this list can do, then we ought to provide a good board to accompany it and win beat New Horizons. Also, we still lose to Counterbalance.

Personally, I'm in favor of moving more toward the list I suggested above. Moment's Peace is amazing against aggro, Krosan Grip answers CB, and Autumn's Veil is the absolute best protection spell we have access to at the moment. Either way, I'm still down to discuss Bahamuth's innovation.

Here's a really insane suggestion:

Put the Hunting Pack set in the board, and keep one in the main.

I am not very happy with the list at this moment. I think it can be better. I want the Preordains to be combo pieces, and preferably something that gives more than just +1 storm. The Pierces are also not that good. I'm not sure there's any kind of other protection that's really viable. I guess I could play Autumn's Veil. It has the advantage that it immediately draws my opponents answers. It sometimes actually happens that I have something like Tide, Reset, Pack, Pierce, FoW, blue card, and my opponent doesn't FoW my Tide or Reset. The disadvantage is that it costs G, and I'd rather not have that. I might just play 4 Trop in this case though.