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I don't want to slay a sacred cow, but how important has Daze been to you?
Lately, I have found the card to be rather lacking, particularly against good opponents. The tempo loss when you use Daze on the draw also can't be neglected. I'm not saying that you should cut Daze entirely, but I think it's time to cut down to 2 or 3 copies, unless your metagame is full of combo. You still have the psychological effect, but effectively free up 1-2 slots.
What do you think?
I play 3. It can be very important to resolving a turn 2 Counterbalance or countering a must counter on their turn 2 or so after you played something else.
Yes, it certainly isn't the best card in the deck. But I think 3 slots is fine and I generally sideboard them out, especially on the draw.
I'd stick with 4 Daze in more aggressive builds, such as NO Bant, but 3 in decks like Supreme Blue.
I don't know but don't u guys have alot of problems against zoo and espacially gobblins??
I really don't know what to do against gobblins...
We thouht that Duelling Grounds ain't bad ^^
But idk...
Step one: Play an early Propaganda/Ghostly Prison. Try to save your countermagic and Swords to Plowshares/Paths to Exile for Seige-Gang Commander.Quote:
Originally Posted by BantFTW
Step two: Resolve Natural Order.
Step three: Profit.
Goblins should be a ridiculously good matchup for you.
Zoo is a little more tricky. Some combination of extra Swords/Paths, blue blasts, and Engineered Explosives will help you out.
I have noticed that the idea of siding out Force of Wills against certain decks, especially Zoo, is becoming more and more prevalent. How do you feel about this? When do you think is it correct to do so?
No, don't get fow out.
Why u would do it, it can counter much things that u don't like...
This is a really crappy post. Per the Site Rules, posts in this format should have substance and use proper English. Kindly shape up. - Bardo
I would play it with this:
18 land (no dryad arbor)
3x lorescale coatl
4x hierarch
4x goyf
3x qasali
3x RWM
3x spell pierce/spell snare (prefer spell pierce)
2x jace, mind sculptor
2x elspeth
2x top
3x daze
4x fow
4x brainstorm
4x stp
SB//
2x top
4x CB
3x PTE
3x relic of pro/tormod's crypt (your choice)
3xx (ethersworn canonist, kitchen finks,...)
lorescale coatl has been really good, seriously. I owns quit alot.
A list without content is spam. Verbal warning. - Bardo
That's why I don't play Cb mainboard, it's good against some decks but my meta is full of aggro and combo.
So combo goes the cb in and without the cb mainboard I got a good matchup against the aggro decks...
So that's why I do it and I quite like it :P.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by BantFTW
I've been playing Coatl since i picked up CounterTop months ago. It's insanely good, and is Goyfs 5-8, but better. I tend to board him out in the mirror due to all the steal-y effects and stuff, because every Counterbalance deck in my meta runs Shackles, Sower, ALL OF THEM.
But i named my deck CoatlTop after that snake :cool:
It doesn't. It's the reason why I should stay away from TheSource when I'm hungover.
All I wanted to say was that Force could be replaced w/ more MU specific counters. Personally, I would never side them out. Another thing, the initial question should be rephrased and take into consideration a specific build of CounterTop. Not all builds would consider taking them out.
Note:
I just read over and deleted my previous post. It was f*cking retarded. Thx for pointing it out.
Lorescale Coalt has been subpar for me. Its too vulnerable when it comes into play. If you have CB + top to protect it you are already winning or probably have the upper hand. Creatures we play should be walls or max utility. Lorescale is a huge wall and a win con, but 2 turns after you play it, and thats too slow. Also fact that lavamancer can burn it makes it even worse. If it was a 3/3....
The only one list where i have seen lorescale coalt performing good, in swans thresh with jace mindsculptor. And the list is so full that you only have room for 2 at max.
I've played numerous list of countertop to see wich one fits more my playstile and with which one im able to succeed more: NO Cb, Cb elspeth, swans thresh, supremeblue and dark countertop.
And finally i've decided to run dark countertop. I've adepted it have a fair game vs agroo and to be able to win dream halls, no list and dark depths combos. Still goblins and merfolks are a bad matchup but all lists have problems with that decks except the swans one.
This the list:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Volrath Stronghold
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
2 Sower of temptation
4 FoW
3 Spell pierce
2 Spell snare
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Smother
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Vedalken Shakles // Maelstorm pulse
SB:
1 Relic of progenitus
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Planar Void
2 Extirpate
2 Enginyered Plague
2 Pithing Needle
2 Enginyered Explosives
2 Llawan Cephalid
2 Vendillion Clique
curve of the deck
0: 19
1: 13
2: 18
3: 4
4: 2
5: 4
I really miss 3 Daze but cant find a way to include it without making the removal too slow or srewing the curve of the deck, so it get replaced with spell pierce. You have 10 ways of getting rid of creatures so spell-pierce drawback shouldnt be a problem.
I would like someway to gainlife, have been thinking of Nighthawk vampire but its casting cost is maybe too restrictive for this deck. Most games it will give you 2 life and then die but i want to test it anyway. What to move tho? Maybe in place of sower??? Then i don't have any CC 4...
Also i've thought of Thother-Sword combo, but it requieres too much slots. Maybe in the place of removal as if you manage to get it online you have won vs agroo, but everytime i put it in the deck, even when it works i can't think any other thing that is not: This combo is sucky slow. Their pieces doesnt do nearlly anything on their own and i would have to switch Volrath for Academy, and i dont want to. Volrath have been good to manipulate the top of deck for CB and to recur goyfs/utility lategame.
And the last possibility i have thought is using Basilisk collar or jitte in the spot of spell snare and switch Shakles with Vendillion clique, this would give me 14 creatures md. Don't know if that will be enought to support two pieces of equipment.
3 Diabolict edits rule vs so much progenitals out there.
The deck has fair games 1 vs nearlly all fields and sb give you the upper hand vs most common and problematic matchups. The 1 of each gy hate in the side is to make it dificult for reanimator and dredge to know what to side. Extirpate is there for loam decks. Llawan needle and plague give merfolks a hard time. Plague is good vs a lot of decks nowadays: You can name zombies, cats, soldiers, goblins etc...if it doesnt win you the game it will slow a lot your opponent. Vendillion is there for combo and its versatily. Finally EE to help against enchantress, zoo and dredge.
I want to put 2 prograndas somewhere in the 75 to help against gobos but dont know what to move.
Coatl is definitely subpar - he doesn't have a large immediate board impact without a Brainstorm in hand, and he's worse than RWM against aggro.
I'd prefer more general aggro hate that can also deal with gobos - Path to Exile and Hydroblast are good options. Hydroblast is better against goblins because it can stop Ringleader or Siege Gang before it hits play, but Path is better against more decks.
On siding out FoW - yes I fully support the idea. They don't have any really important spells to counter besides Price of Progress, and I'd rather have more specific answers or removal spells, like Path or Hydroblast.
Taking out Force of Will seems extremely poor. Consider the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by PhanTom_lt
1) Force of Will is inherently a very powerful card.
2) The Zoo deck will likely be boarding in hate cards that you cannot allow to resolve. Price of Progress and Choke do not care about removal like Path.
3) Many times the concern is not with the enemy Goyf or Nacatl, but with their Path to Exile targetting your Goyf and blowing up your board position. "Answers" and "removal" do not help you defend your own threats from their spells.
4) Typically, 1:1 removal and counters are a losing strategy unless there is a card drawing engine. Brainstorm and Ponder are beautiful cards, and they certainly help, but they are not a card drawing engine.
5) Zoo looks to win by being faster. Force of Will allows you to overcome this disadvantage and have a defensive maneuver that costs no mana. It is arguably the best card in the match if you're looking to fight their tempo.
Hi, as i played UGBW Baseruption and Dreadstill in the past i am not completly new to Countertop decks at all, but i am new to the supreme blue list and i have zero experience to it (just faced it 2 times on a tournament). I came up with this pretty basic list:
3 War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Lightning Angel
4 Counterbalance
4 Divining top
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
4 swords to plowshares
4 daze
2 spell snare
4 force of will
3 firespout
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
1 plains
1 forest
1 island
Sideboard:
1 Trygon Predator
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tormods Crypt
3 Relic of progenitus
3 Submerge
3 pyroblast
2 engineered explosives
Don't worry to much about the lighning angels, i just try them beside serendib efreet which seems to be nice too till i get my elspeth or any Planeswalkers.
I am not sure how to play any Solutions like Predator or Explosives in the Maindeck but i don't want to cut any daze or spell snares.
How u guys feel about the mana base for this deck at all? i feel like mine is not that good atm so i thought of something like this beside playing a playset monks beeing able to get back some of the lifeloss and be a bit more save from extirpated tropicals (as i don't run the forest anymore)
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 City of Brass
7 Fetchlands
2 Island
What matchups are you hoping to improve by changing the mana base?
1.) Merfolk/Tempo Thresh - City of brass can be wasted just as easily as duals
2.) Dreadstill - Might help, but once again cannot be fetched and reducing the number of duals only give them less targets they have to hit before they turn your fetchlands useless. If you are concerned about extirpating trops, try a single savanah.
3.) Dragon Stompy - City is still a mountain :(
Secondly, If you are concerned about mana destruction you should not be playing lightning angel. For the most part, she is too slow to change aggro matchups, and there are better cards for the control matchup. Perhaps Ajani Vengeant would be worth trying out in that slot.
Is U/G countertop (as in no splash) even worth considering? Or does the slower style of the deck vs tempo thresh hurt it, considering the lack of removal?
Considering my current build (is there a way to make this under a spoiler tag?):Quote:
Originally Posted by BackDr0p
// Lands
3 [B] Tundra
4 [B] Tropical Island
2 [UG] Island
1 [UG] Forest
1 [UG] Plains
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
1 [CFX] Progenitus
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
2 [M10] Ponder
3 [VI] Natural Order
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
Against Zoo I would go -4 FoW, -3 Natural Order, -1 Progenitus, +3 Hydroblast, +3 Path to Exile, + 2 Umezawa's Jitte. Maybe -1 Top instead of one of the Forces, but here I think it is plausible. FoW is big card disadvantage in a matchup where I'm playing the control role and seek to CB as many of his plays as possible.
If I was playing a different list, say this one (an alternative I'm considering):
// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [UG] Island
1 [UG] Forest
4 [B] Tundra
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
4 [M10] Ponder
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage
then I think I side in +3 Hydroblast, +3 Path to Exile, +2 Umezawa's Jitte and take out 2 Sower of Temptation, 1 Top, 1 Ponder, 3 Pridemages/3 Forces, and 1 Force.
If you are siding out natural orders against zoo, you are doing it wrong. If you can hold one green creature or fetch dryad arbor for natural order you usually just win. You get from side bue elemental blasts, and you have plenty of counters AND rhox war monk to fight their burn. I haven't lose a game against zoo when i have resolved natural order.. I would side out dazes in both cases and sowers if playing list above. In could come hydroblasts and path exiles. Jitte has same problem than natural order, if you could not keep one creature alive, jitte and natural order will not do anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhanTom_lt
So, I've been playtesting a lot. Played against some Zoo and some Merfolk and some Dragon Stompy. I overall like this deck a lot, but I still am unsure about what to side out in match-ups. Here is my list:
Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Progenitus
1 Trygon Predator
Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshare
3 Daze
3 Natural Order
Enchanments
4 Counterbalance
Artifacts
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Savannah
2 Tundra
2 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
Sideboard
3 Krosan Grip
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Echoing Truth
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Hydroblast
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod’s Crypt
Here is how I side against the biggest decks:
Zoo:
-3 Daze, -1 Brainstorm, -1 Counterbalance, -1 Rhox War Monk, -1 Trygon Predator +2 Echoing Truth, +2 Engineered Explosives, +2 Hydroblast, +1 Blue Elemental Blast
Ad Nauseam Tendrils
-3 Natural Order, -1 Progenitus, +2 Echoing Truth, +2 Engineered Explosives
Merfolk
-4 Counterbalance, +3 Krosan Grip, +1 Echoing Truth
Goblins
-4 Counterbalance, -3 Daze, +3 Krosan Grip, +2 Blue Elemental Blast, +2 Hydroblast
Canadian Threshold
-3 Daze, +2 Hydroblast, +1 Blue Elemental Blast
Dredge
-4 Counterbalance, -2 Rhox War Monk, -1 Natural Order, -1 Trygon Predator, +2 Echoing Truth, +2 Engineered Explosives, +2 Relic of Progenitus, +2 Tormod's Crypt
Idk. Any suggestions or help with sideboarding would be great. :)
BTW, Echoing Truth vs Submerge?
Echoing Truth is more versatile, but Submerge is much more powerful. What do you think?