Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by kirdie

What is the best way to find a Lands deck (like http://www.deckcheck.de/deck.php?id=21374)?

I always seem to lose against it unless I get Counter Balance+Top+ a 2 CC card on top against life from the Loam + Jace + Elspeth but that is pretty hard to get.

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Counter the acceleration spells (Exploration/Manabond), slowroll basics to 4, play Jace. Lands has an extremely difficult time dealing with a resolved Jace.

Countering Life from the Loam is usually a pointless exercise unless you're close to winning and just need to buy a turn or two. But it's very hard for Lands to get an engine going if you just keep Exploration/Manabond off the table.

Also, if they lock you game one, scoop quickly and move to game two, don't let them drag it out. IME if a control player doesn't concede, it's very easy for Lands to win the match 1-0-1; even if they can't, at that point you're probably playing for a match draw.

I'm still puzzled by land tax. How do these guys get them to trigger? The only way I can see it triggering is if you purposely miss drops for it to trigger. This deck operates on alot of mana and we can't afford to miss drops for card advantage. Tithe IS better than tax because you can play tricks with your fetches to make sure you get 2 lands. Also Tithe is an instant which you can cast EOT or Flashback with Snapcaster. I don't see Tax's appeal. Most of these guys are playing 1,2 or 3 taxes. There seems to be a wide range. I am very interested in how this card benefits this deck. Sure it's card advantage and excellent with Jace/Brainstorm/Drops for entreat, but how in the world do you get it to trigger and not die?

Also you lose alot of utility lands due to having too run more basics. I don't see the appeal, or is it a meta consideration? I can see it being good in the control mirror but that's about it. It's terrible against everything else. I just bought another BB land tax last night so I might be testing 2 in this deck, but so far its been meh. I don't see what these SCG guys love about the card.

Daze? Most of the deck playing land tax are dismissing spell pierce for daze, so you can setup, say, counterbalance more efficiently AND not risking being screwed by random nonbasic hat / stifle.

I think they just wanted to try out the impact of land tax in legacy, due to some consideration maybe of SCG strategic articles. My humble opinion is that a control deck is mana hungry by definition, and you want strategies that help develop your mana base, not set yourself off. When you don't have mana, and in the meta I currently see, you better play spell pierce than daze, since people will tend to play around daze anyway, and decks with mana acceleration or a low curve barely need to.

I remember the early adoptions of SFM in control shells: there, a t2 daze ensured resolving SFM against both control deck and 'folks, while not losing value against combo deck. Protecting a counterbalance in the current environment has not the same impact on the game, not if on the other side of the field you face pierces/dazes/whatever.

Plus, land tax is a card that, the turn you play, does NOTHING. Just sits there. Sure, when it goes off it's CA but... I can't figure why a control deck wants a card that, when cast, does nothing. You better play 2 Ponder in the slots for land tax: good for searching lands / protection / business / top in early game if you don't have top, good for shuffling if you are stuck with horrible top3 but fail to find a fetch, always pitchable to force, and you're not feeling guilty playing it on t1 as you would with brainstorm :smile: Or you can go +1 CS +1 Trinket Mage, or +1 Jace +1 Land, +1 Relic +1 Trinket, or other meta choices of preference. It seems to me you'll get anyway more value than playing land tax, but I could be obviously wrong.

Playing Daze in this deck is Terribad. I just don't see how warping the deck so much to accommodate a low impact card like Land Tax is a good idea. We just have to accept that Land Tax is just not good enough to warrant warping the deck so much. It gets you a bunch of basics and makes Brainstorms slightly better. It's not THAT great.

My current list:

4 Flooded Strand
4 blue fetch
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
3 Mishra's Factory (could be 3 Wasteland should it deem it so)
1 Karakas

3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Entreat the Angels

SB: 4 Counterbalance
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 1 Terminus
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction

Really digging the 24 lands and 4 Jace. 4 Terminus and/or Counterbalance maindeck I feel is a subjective meta-decision, and since I've felt the overall meta in the greatest city on Earth (Minneapolis) has been incredibly varied, I've liked keeping the 'balances in the board to come in; could definitely see an argument for why a varied meta would necessitate running CB in the main, though. U. Sea and V. Island are there for EE up to four, although you can also do an awesome job of tricking people with them. In the board, I like Crypt over other forms of grave hate since I really feel you don't want to be fucking around with paying mana for Relic or anything vs. Dredge. Flusterstorm has been excellent. I could see moving a few numbers around here and there, like the number of Snapcasters, Cliques, Counterspells, etc. but it feels solid enough.

Quick question for you Miracle control guys.
Why does everyone use disenchant in their sideboards?
What decks is it commonly brought in for?

Disenchant is nice against Choke and Stoneblade, while having random usefulness in non traditional matchups like enchantress or affinity. Mostly for the first two though

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Originally Posted by KevinTrudeau

In the board, I like Crypt over other forms of grave hate since I really feel you don't want to be fucking around with paying mana for Relic or anything vs. Dredge.

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Honestly, Nihil Spellbomb might just be better. You're not gonna keep a zero-land hand with Crypt anyway, and since you do run an Underground Sea that it's safe to fetch for against Dredge you get a cantrip out of it later. That being said, have you had any problems running the two non-Tundra duals for EE as far as Wasteland goes? I'm not sure if the marginal utility increase in popping off four-drops is worth the hit against all the popular decks that run Wasteland.

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Originally Posted by KevinTrudeau

In the board, I like Crypt over other forms of grave hate since I really feel you don't want to be fucking around with paying mana for Relic or anything vs. Dredge.

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I think that Crypt is weak in this deck. In general, Crypt is best for decks that can utilize the free cost by being aggressive or can close the game quickly; however, this is not a deck that can do that at all. Without pressure most graveyard decks can easily fight through a tormod's crypt by forcing you to use your crypt, then just continuing with their graveyard strategies.

For this reason, my two favorite graveyard hate cards are Grafdigger's Cage and Surgical Extraction. Surgical Extraction if you expect loam and control decks, since cage doesn't stop loam and surgical extraction can hit the few win-cons of control decks. Remember that Surgical Extraction can be snapcastered as well, which is relevant. Decks can still fight through a surgical extraction use, but in general I think it's much harder than fighting through a crypt activation. Cage is generally stronger against other Graveyard strategies, in my experience, as it puts most graveyard decks in an "answer this card or lose" situation.

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Originally Posted by joemauer

Quick question for you Miracle control guys.
Why does everyone use disenchant in their sideboards?
What decks is it commonly brought in for?

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I'm not convinced that Disenchant is the best card for dealing with artifacts and enchantments, although I can definitely understand why people use it. I think that you do need to have some way to deal with a resolved artifact or in enchantment, especially in a varied field like most Legacy tends to be. Consider scary cards like counterbalance, batterskull, and choke that needs to be answered. In general I would prefer a few other options over disenchant. The main downsides to this I see are that increased casting costs makes it harder to cast these cards against a choke or spell pierce. 3cc is usually better for dealing with counterbalance though. However, here are my thoughts on potentially better cards:

Oblivion Ring because it has way more versatility over disenchant. This makes it much safer to bring in vs. Maverick, especially since you can get a creature with if they don't have the choke. Also lets you hit enemy Jaces which is very useful for the mirror. Downside is that this can be destroyed and they can get their card back.

Engineered Explosives has much increased utility, like Oblivion Ring. The main difference here is that you're slower to kill things, but it gives you an extra answer to nimble mongoose and ways to sweep tokens (relevant vs. Empty the Warrens and, if the gamestate allows, Entreat the Angels). Can avoid counterbalance like a boss too. Let's you also go for recursion if you run Academy Ruins.

Krosan Grip if you splash green, because when you want to answer something you want it gone. Best vs. Countertop and Batterskull.

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Originally Posted by HammerAndSickled

That being said, have you had any problems running the two non-Tundra duals for EE as far as Wasteland goes? I'm not sure if the marginal utility increase in popping off four-drops is worth the hit against all the popular decks that run Wasteland.

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I personally don't find this to be a big deal at all. The situations where you draw one of the two off-color duals you run and you don't have any other targets for the wasteland(s) that your opponent has to draw is going to be slim. Usually your opponents will always have wasteland targets, since you're likely to draw at last one nonbasic in a game when a wasteland might matter, even if you run a lot of basics. However, being able to kill Jaces with EE on 4 usually tends to be pretty relevant in a tournament.

Disenchant is not optimal but the reason why most play it is because it's instant and is flashbackable. Against GW, it kills Sylvan, Choke and equipment. Being able to kill multiples with Snapcaster is very useful. Same for Stoneblade.

Crypt is bad in this deck. Like Valtrix said, crypt is better in aggressive decks that can close out the game quickly. In control, Surgical/Cage is best. I prefer surgical in this deck for 2 reasons. One is that it can be flashbacked and the 2nd is because it costs zero. Post board, we will have a million and one counters against combo. Surgical costing zero does not mess with our Pierces and Flusterstorms. In an early counter war over an entomb, you want your disruption to be as cheap as possible. Also if your surgical gets therapied/duressed out of your hand, Snapcastering it back is huge.

Abolish seems good against Choke and Counterbalance. Double white seems tough though.

@Valtrix, ivanpei— can't really disagree with the point that Crypt is suited for a deck that can win in a faster fashion. I shall have to try out the Cage/Surgical config, probably 2 Cage, 3 Extraction to start. Will probably mean I'll leave in all forms of countermagic then versus Dredge, taking out 4 Jace, 2 Clique, and probably the 24th land (Plains, I suppose) for 5 pieces of grave hate, 1 Terminus, 1 EE— does that sound correct?

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Originally Posted by HammerAndSickled

That being said, have you had any problems running the two non-Tundra duals for EE as far as Wasteland goes? I'm not sure if the marginal utility increase in popping off four-drops is worth the hit against all the popular decks that run Wasteland.

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I haven't heuristically encountered any problems as of yet, and don't expect to going forward. In fact, one could go as far as saying they're good vs. Wasteland due to the fact that they can bait Wastes out and keep your Tundras/Factories (although, Factory is certainly a land that also gets used as bait a bit in certain situations) intact. In addition, though I haven't actually pulled it off yet, I can see many situations where fetching up Underground and Volc first will increase the efficacy of a Terminus by a decent margin (it's already going to do amazing things, so I don't expect it to be that much better, but still). Of course, that's assuming an opponent's action, which is never a given, but with six basics, it's honestly fine.

What do you think about the winning decklist of the StarCityGames.com Legacy Open tournament in Kansas City, Missouri, United States on 2012-08-12
(http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=48610)?

It is a mixture of Stoneblade and UW Miracles, with 3 Terminus, 3 SdT and 4 Stoneforge Mystics in the Mainboard and 4 Counterbalance in the Sideboard:

3 Terminus
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Batterskull
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Spell Pierce
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Ponder
1 Academy Ruins
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Volcanic Island
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Tundra

Sideboard
1 Terminus
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Path to Exile
4 Counterbalance
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Disenchant
2 Pyroblast

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Originally Posted by kirdie

What do you think about the winning decklist of the StarCityGames.com Legacy Open tournament in Kansas City, Missouri, United States on 2012-08-12

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I like it and am running pretty close to that build myself, I was testing a UWb list but cut the black to add SFM package and splashed red for REBs. Here is my list:


3 SFM
3 SCM

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Swords to plowshares

3 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels

4 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
2 Engineered Explosives

3 JTMS

LANDS
4 Islands
2 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Academy Ruins


SIDEBOARD
2 V. Clique
1 Humilty
2 Disenchant
1 ETutor
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
3 CB
3 REB
2 Surgical Extraction


I was contemplating adding more Counterspells and I may try the 2/2 split with Pierce, Spell Pierce disappoints me often. I want to add Crucible of Worlds and Wasteland but I dont want to change the deck too much atm cause I am happy with results so far.

Hey Everybody! This is the list I will be running for my first tournament with the deck. Let me know what you think about the deck especially sideboarding. There is primarily storm, dredge and blade decks at the store. Have not tested against blade decks much, but that is why I have the third clique over something else like terminus, jace, or elspeth.


3 tundra
5 island
2 plains
3 polluted delta
1 marsh flats
4 Flooded Strand
4 wasteland
1 karakas
3 Vendilion Clique
3 snapcaster Mage
3 terminus
3 counterbalance
3 spell pierce
4 sensei's diving top
4 brainstorm
2 entreat the angels
4 swords to plowshares
3 jace the mind sculptor
4 force of will
1 counterspell

Sb
1 Terminus
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Engineered explosives
2 path of exile
1 Counterbalance
1 Spell Pierce
1 Disenchant
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction


Rug
-3 Spell Pierce
-1 Counterspell
-2 Entreat the Angels
+1 Terminus
+2 Path to Exile
+2 Engineered Explosives
+1 Counterbalance

Maverick
-3 Counterbalance
-3 Vendilion Clique
+2 Path to Exile
+2 Engineered Explosives
+1 Disenchant
+1 Terminus

Esper:
-4 Force of Will
-3 Terminus
+1 Counterbalance
+1 Spell Pierce
+1 Vedalken Shackles
+1 Disenchant
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Surgical Extraction

Goblins
On play
+1 Terminus
-3 Counterbalance
+1 disenchant
+1 Vedalken Shackles
-2 Vendilion Clique
+2 Pithing Needle
On draw
+1 Terminus
+1 Disenchant
+1 Vedalken Shackles
-3 Counterbalance
-2 Spell Pierce
+2 Pithing Needle

Merfolk
-4 Force of will
-3 Spell Pierce
-1 Counterspell
-1 Counterbalance
+2 Path to Exile
+1 Terminus
+2 Explosives
+1 Disenchant
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Vedalken Shackles

Dredge
+3 Grafdigger's Cage
+1 Terminus
+1 Spell Pierce
-3 Counterbalance
-3 Jace
-2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Path to Exile
+1 Surgical Extraction

Mirror
-4 swords to plow shares
-3 Terminus
+2 Engineered Explosives
+1 Spell Pierce
+1 Counterbalance
+1 Disenchant
+1 Surgical Extraction
+1 Vedalken Shackles

Show and tell
-4 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Surgical Extraction
+1 Terminus
+1 Counterbalance
+1 Spell Pierce

Reanimator
+3 Grafdigger's Cage
+1 Surgical Extraction
-3 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Counterbalance
+1 Spell Pierce
-3 Terminus

ANT
+2 Engineered Explosives
-4 Swords to Plowshares
+3 Grafdigger's Cage
+1 Surgical Extraction
+1 Terminus
+1 Spell Pierce
+1 Counterbalance
-2 Entreat the Angels
-3 Jace TMS

@Guy: When you sideboard for Merfolk, I would cut all the copies of Counterbalance before I started cutting FOWs. FOW can potentially prevent a turn 1 Vial, which is one of the biggest hassles with Merfolks.

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Originally Posted by Guy I Don't Know

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3 Clique seems overkill imo. I'd prefer CS #2 over Clique #3 for sure.
Edit: Shackles is not a SB card imo.

Merfolk is actually pretty vulnerable to CB now with all 2 drops. Shackles are pretty mediocre there. With 2 EE 2 Needle 1 Disenchant, you have plenty of ways to stop Vial and therefore turn on CB.

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3 Clique seems overkill imo. I'd prefer CS #2 over Clique #3 for sure.
Edit: Shackles is not a SB card imo.

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Three Clique may be overkill, I had the third in the sideboard and wanted sixteen sideboard cards so I moved it to main. Counterspell does seem pretty good.

What would you put in instead of shackles for stone blade decks that is also good versus Merfolk?

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@Guy: When you sideboard for Merfolk, I would cut all the copies of Counterbalance before I started cutting FOWs. FOW can potentially prevent a turn 1 Vial, which is one of the biggest hassles with Merfolks

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I will test that out. I think Spell Pierce may be better on the play than FOW. I would have very few cards to support FOW, about 15.

I hate to be one of the many guys that drops their pile on the forums and asks for input, but my list seems considerably different than everyone elses yet seems to work. So I figured I'm either just getting lucky with a piece of junk, or maybe there is something here that is worth while.
My thinking when constructing the deck was to maximize cards that are active by turn 3 at the latest. Then in the late game use CB and shackles to grind out the win, or drop an EOT Entreat to steal games when the board is still empty.
Anyways here goes:

Land: 21
4 Flooded strand
2 Polluted delta
4 Tundra
2 Wasteland
3 Plains
6 Islands

Spells: 22
4 Brainstorm
4 Spell pierce
4 Counterspell
2 Mana leak
4 Force of will
4 Swords to plowshares

Enchantments/Artifacts: 12
4 Sensei's divining top
3 Counterbalance
3 Oblivion ring
2 Vedalken shackles

Kill: 5
3 Entreat the angels
2 Vendilion clique

Sideboard:
2 Surgical extraction
1 Grafdigger's cage
1 Relic of progenitus
2 Terminus
2 Disenchant
2 Elspeth, knight-errant
2 Gilded drake
1 Circle of protection: red
2 Timely reinforcements

The obvious WTF cards are the 6 counterspell/mana leak and 3 ORings instead of any SCM, Jaces, or Terminus. Again this is have more live cards in the early going and reducing mulligans. With CB and Shackles the late game gas is still present, but really just dropping an EOT Entreat for 3-4 on a near empty board is what I aim for.
Feel free to rip it apart (especially the SB) so long as you back it up with some valid reason.

-Mono