[Deck] GW/x Maverick

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Originally Posted by Morte

I couldn’t agree less. Did you seriously test Punishing Mav? Direct damage is very useful early game too: when I was playing straight GW with 4 removals and failed to draw one, from time to time a single Bob or Lavamancer could own me. Punishing Fire solve the problem AND is brutal later. The mirror is also improved dramatically, planeswalkers becomes much less scarier, especially the new Liliana. I’d point that, besides speculation, the results of GP Amsterdam are a good evidence of how Punishing Mav is one step above (1st and 9th place over 1800+ people after Swiss, above all GW lists, with Fabian Gorgzen finishing first both at the GP and the trial).

About Zoo players, I think it’s a right choice for them to try to overlap more with Maverick. Of course… an even better idea would be totally switching Zoo for Maverick, it’s just a stronger deck :wink:

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Punishing fire needs lots of mana for you to be able to use it properly so do equips vs tempo decks or fast decks or decks that cripple your mana you will choose which route to take. Big zoo almost plays similarly but has a faster clock and smaller curve for its equip carrier in the form of nactals thus will not suffer the same faith as the slower red mav. When the game prolongs i will not deny that red mav is really hard to stop but against blue decks you still loose to card quality.., thus again enter why you also need a certain speed to finish off your opponents.. thats why i really liked the idea of NO combo but decided not to incorporate it due to lack off support spells. its a good win condition as it puts pressure to your opponent to find an answer or quickly win, while RED Mav is a grinding deck.

well, on my tests most of time i didnt use the NO combo -.-
I lost 1 time i used it thanks to bolt+bolt+chain lighting+fireblast, but i won vs a Show and Tell turn 2 for Progenitus plus show and tell turn 3 for Emrakul. (in the same game).
The Progenitus is really good vs the meta i think ill face next week.
But well, to be honest, i think Sword/better way to find Jitte > progenitus.
Maybe i should run Red Mav. My friend said that a lot of ppl here are playing Canadian/Team america. Can the manabase of Red Mav fuck me vs this guys? Or i should just ignore this point because Punishing fire is good vs the other guys?

@_erbs_
Blue decks are 2/3 of the format. Currently, winning requires to beat blue. Does Maverick beat blue? Yes, it’s one of its strong points. Always easily? No, especially against mass destruction or recurring removals with Snappy.

Does NO package improve this matchup? On the contrary, it’s very week against blue.

Does Punishing package improve this matchup? A lot, against all variants.

You said “Punishing fire needs lots of mana for you to be able to use it properly”. I’m still skeptical you actually tested it. I suppose you’re referring to the situation when you have the combo online and you’re shooting one Fire per turn (so you’re investing 3 mana per turn for that). Well… If you succeed to establish the combo early game and you’re frying a creature per turn without spending any more card, I’d say you’re in Heaven :smile:

But seriously, usually you’re not that lucky, you just shoot one or two Fire in the “fair” way (I play 4) and maybe you can recur them later. And even then, it’s a choice of yours to invest your mana in recurring Fire rather than doing something else. You opt for the best move depending on the situation… As for every other choice in the game… This is not an argument at all.

Same for “When the game prolongs i will not deny that red mav is really hard to stop but against blue decks you still loose to card quality..” : simply not true?

I can understand that you want to push the play style you like the most, but don’t mix it with the research of the most efficient configuration of the deck. If you like Zoo, play Zoo; if you like NO, play NO; if you don’t like Fire, just be in the cooler.



@Gustavoslash
I’d say that tempo metchup is more or less the same for straight GW and Punishing Mav. Punishing manabase is more unstable in terms of color screwing but more or less equal in terms of mana screwing, being the number basics not so different (I play 2 basics in Punishing against 3 in GW) and the total amount of lands is greater or equal (someone plays 23 lands against 22, or 5 Hierarch+BoP against 4, I play 22 lands and one Life from the Loam).
On the other hand, Punishing Fire burns Delver of Secrets, often singlehandedly giving you the time required to overrun the tempo strategy.

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Originally Posted by Morte

@Gustavoslash
I’d say that tempo metchup is more or less the same for straight GW and Punishing Mav. Punishing manabase is more unstable in terms of color screwing but more or less equal in terms of mana screwing, being the number basics not so different (I play 2 basics in Punishing against 3 in GW) and the total amount of lands greater or equal (someone plays 23 lands against 22, or 5 Hierarch+BoP against 4, I play 22 lands and one Life from the Loam.
On the other hand, Punishing Fire burns Delver of Secrets, often singlehandedly giving you the time required to overrun the tempo strategy.

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Imo the tempo thresh MU is significantly better with the punishing fire version. Delver (if it comes down quick enough and is protected) and lavamancer are really what worries us most in this MU (goyf can be blocked or kept in check with ooze), and having a recurrable way to deal with them is invaluable.Straight GW's better mana base doesn't compensate for this.

Do u mind to post your list for me? Im working on it, but i cant decide what creatures and lands to use.
What do u guys do vs Storm? Sit and cry?

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Originally Posted by Gustavoslash

What do u guys do vs Storm?

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I try to fight it, if it looks bad I take out my wallet, search the closest bar and get loaded.

This is the list I’m running now:

4 Windswepth Heat
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Driad Arbor
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Mother of Runes
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Punishing Fire
1 Life from the Loam
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Choke
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Red Elemental Blast


Aginst storm, game one is of course unfavorable. My maindeck hate counts 3 Mindcensors and Teeg, to GSZ asap and possibly protect with MoR. That’s just a slow down in any case, Teeg can be bounced even under MoR protection with Wipe Away and Mindcensor hurts but can be bypassed. You need this AND a clock to stand a chance.

Game 2-3 every Maverick list sides in a lot of stuff. In my case, I board in 3 REB, 2 Choke, 1 Thorn of Amethyst and 2 Canonist against any storm deck. If they don’t have counters, 2 Enlightened Tutor too to increase hate density without risking too much card disadvantage. Sometimes, if graveyard tricks are very relevant for them, also some GY hate.

About how to play after boarding, you need to play 2+ (different) pieces of hate and to have a clock. Never keep a slow hand without hate, and evaluate carefully a hand with one single piece of hate if it’s too slow.

Storm is an unfavorable matchup but it’s winnable. Remember, don’t give too much relevance to games where TES smashes you before you can open your mouth: every (decent) deck is unwinnable with a God hand… even if it doesn’t do it in a way as spectacular as a turn 1 or 2 goldfish. Just consider that they can’t do it that consistently, and you’ll see how storm is much more “fair” than what a lot of people like to say.

@Morte: My MD list is similar to use with the exception that I have 4 MoR and 2 Oozes, but no Sylvan. I really want to play Sylvan, but i feel like I need more creatures in the deck for threats....i am still agonizing about what to take out for 2 Sylvan.

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Originally Posted by iScare

@Morte: My MD list is similar to use with the exception that I have 4 MoR and 2 Oozes, but no Sylvan. I really want to play Sylvan, but i feel like I need more creatures in the deck for threats....i am still agonizing about what to take out for 2 Sylvan.

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If you are agonizing over 2 card slots, i suggest you quit magic and do something less stressful

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Originally Posted by Avatar of Shadow

If you are agonizing over 2 card slots, i suggest you quit magic and do something less stressful

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It is quite stressful, everything in the deck seems to be very useful. Nothing wrong about being stressful in trying to figure out what needs to go in my deck.

This is what I meant to post yesterday but I got distracted:

@ everyone - when you suggest to start off with an 'easier' list, you overstate the difficulty of playing the deck. This is hardly storm combo, and bakofried is an experienced magic player. Individual Magic decks aren't puzzles that take years of training to master (although you can always learn a few new tricks with experience) - if you're good at Magic you should be able to romp with Maverick, so when an experienced player suggests what's the best list to commit to building piece by piece, you ought to tell them like they are just as good a player as you.

Maverick is a deck which can be adjust to almost any playstyle. So best to start with Core GW list, then adding all cards which best fit to your game play. For example for a long time I was using Rafiq+Terravore in GW/u list which was most game ending strategy. Now I changed to more controlish version GW/r with Punishing Fires and with Sylvan Library to take longer plans on game state. Its much diffrent then storm deck where you have routes to puzzle to win. Here you have know since turn 1-2 vs what you are playing to choose correct plays. Like I saw on SCG on future match, a lot of ppl still playing maverick very bad. This deck has a lot of tricks. Most of then are writed in this little thread, but not all.

For example:

1) I found that Avens have one more function. The force opponent fetches, so for example if opponent starts and doesn't want to search lands from them, just play it so your wasteland on hand will find target..

2) Next trick is using SFM having equip already on hand:
a) If you have Batterskull go for SoLS, and play Batterskull
b) If you have SOLS and not too many lands, go for Jitte if face'ing aggro
c) If you have SOLS and a lot of lands, go for Batterskull

If you starting with Noble, and Mom its also hard to decide what to play first. To take correct decision you have to know vs what you are playing. Next thing if you are on play you have do decide depends on your hand.

Most time playing Hierarch first is better since even if he kill it, you will still able to play Mom which most avoid removal, If he didn't kill it - even better access to 3 mana is very nice since you dodge Dazes and can play 3cmc spells or just use wasteland.

Mom is next card which isn't too well playing.. It should blank removal on hand, blocking and protection, isn't sometimes worth, you have to calculate when its must block, and when those life doesn't matter.

Since tempo is rised, next card which have to be consider vs is stifle. Most of creatures/lands, have activation costs from my experience better to took out stifle in early game, then died from bad working Maze. Don't forget that you can use Maze of Ith before declarating blockers, so use Maze, if he stifle - just block :). Also always remember Maze of Ith can be used after dmg step..

Using right KotRs is on of the most important thing in this deck. For example - calculate his size, never attack it when he is just too small more worth is to fetch lands, then attack 3 times then attacking 4 times to victory - same clock but you fetch lands which isn't best draws in middle/late. Scryb Ranger can be calculated as (+2/+2)*turns for each land you have in play which is forest for KotR.

Bojuka Bog is on of the most important card on SB - not only vs decks like Dredge/Reanimator. IT is good also in mirrors, and all U snapcasters, or decks using Ghastly Demise. Next situation:
-Having Pridemage on table across gigantic KotR on opponents control, Bojuka on hand. Attack with Pridemage, he will block, then put Bojuka from Hand and KotRs is dead.

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Originally Posted by Fatal

-Having Pridemage on table across gigantic KotR on opponents control, Bojuka on hand. Attack with Pridemage, he will block, then put Bojuka from Hand and KotRs is dead.

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Not gonna happen. Opponent's KotR will just look for a fetch and crack it after bog's trigger resolves, making it 4/4. Usually works if you attack with another KotR (or if you have ranger in play), but a smart player will see it coming.

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Originally Posted by Maëlig

Not gonna happen. Opponent's KotR will just look for a fetch and crack it after bog's trigger resolves, making it 4/4. Usually works if you attack with another KotR (or if you have ranger in play), but a smart player will see it coming.

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If played after combat they can fetch all they want. At some point, their knight will be a 2/2 with 2+ damage on her. The only way they're getting out of that one is if they fetch for a blue and stifle the bog trigger.

If they don't block... you did damage. I don't see the downfall to this unless you needed them to block. If you do need them to block, I'd actually suggest you bait with the largest acceptable loss to make sure they block, or maximize the end result. That doesn't mean you have to swing a knight. Sometimes 2 damage is enough, but if you can slip more in, why not?

My bad, I somehow thought he meant fetching bog before combat damage to ensure qasali lives (which doesn't work, as I explained). Reading fail.

This may not be entirely relevant with the given meta, but does anyone have any tips for the Goblins mu?

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Originally Posted by bakofried

This may not be entirely relevant with the given meta, but does anyone have any tips for the Goblins mu?

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Try to hold a hand that can handle first turn Lackey (Dryad Arbor is a bit risky here as they have Ports for it) and resolve a Jitte/Bskull asap. Postboard they bring Perish and artifacthate so try to play around it and boarding Path's can be really bad for you, esp on the draw.
All in all this matchup is fairly easy if you can do the combat math right.

Congratz to Ruckus for top 8ing SCG Open Vegas. I'm eager to hear his thoughts on not running Mindcensors (probably he decided that Uxx will suppress combo enough).

Also whats with SCG naming his list Bant Stoneblade, yet naming the 9th place list Maverick?

I did indeed top 8 with maverick. I'll keep this brief cuz Las Vegas is ridic. Went 7-1 into top 8 then lost to the winner.

Round 1 - affinty L
Round 2 - ANT W
Round 3 - Blue Junk W
Round 4- Junk Depths W
Round 5 - Reanimator W
Round 6 - Aggro Bant W
Round 7 - Big Zoo W
Round 8 - Aggro Bant W
Top 8 - Canadian Threshold carbon copy L

Closer detail will be in the report later this week.

Cheeers!

Great job rukcus! I'd love to hear a report, and some thoughts on your MD changes.