Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
I agree with both Esper3k and th3 w1z4rd: Blood Moon is an automatic win against RUG only if it sticks before any of his creatures, but MUD doesn't play Simian Spirit Guides to drop it turn 1 like Dragon Stompy or Big Red, thus it's only realistic if you play first and drop it second turn while RUG uses his first turn to ponder/brainstorm and doesn't have a counter in hand. That's very rare.
Having said that, I have to admit that my matchup against RUG is vary favorable and I cannot recall last time I lost to it in a tournament. Aside chalice@1 that basically stops their deck apart tarmogoyfs, we have many cards that are must counter for them: wurmcoil, hellkite, batterskull, godo, trinisphere, lodestone.
I particularly like trinisphere over blood moon because it can be casted first turn with a monolith and if they don't have a fow they basically lose.
The key in this matchup is to have drop a resistor and have patience, because if they cannot play their spells for free they lose their tempo and their strategy falls apart.
Note that with cavern of souls they simply have no out for one of the creatures above.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Bruizar do you mind sharing your 8+ mountain list? Sounds interesting and ive got some arabian mountains dying to be played!
Overall we need more deck lists here, show what were discussing peeps
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
I actually dislike resistors against RUG quite a bit. RUG's best gameplan against us is to stop our artifact mana while attacking with a creature. If we can't resolve a Monolith or a Dynamo, we're unlikely to cast anything in time to survive. Ancient Grudge is also particularly good in the tempo game against us. Resistors assist them in their gameplan of constraining our mana.
Likewise, if they're Wastelanding us with no threat - that's stupid of them. If they're Wastelanding us and they have a threat out (as is the most common situation), then that's very rough on us.
Yes, they have a tough time beating a resolved Wurmcoil (or really any 6+ drop). The problem has always been getting to play said 6+ drop without dying first. I actually try and push my "bomb" curve down instead of up against them. While All is Dust is amazing against them, you're very unlikely to get to cast / resolve it (on top of it growing their Tarmogoyf if it gets countered).
Lodestone Golem isn't that great against them either since it still only costs them 2 mana to Lightning Bolt it.
The best way I've found to beat RUG is to simply keep hands that have plenty of lands and accelerants. Worry less about opening bombs because any of our bombs will pretty much win the game against them. Making our land drops and getting our mana online is much more key to winning the match.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Esper3k
I actually dislike resistors against RUG quite a bit. RUG's best gameplan against us is to stop our artifact mana while attacking with a creature. If we can't resolve a Monolith or a Dynamo, we're unlikely to cast anything in time to survive. Ancient Grudge is also particularly good in the tempo game against us. Resistors assist them in their gameplan of constraining our mana.
Likewise, if they're Wastelanding us with no threat - that's stupid of them. If they're Wastelanding us and they have a threat out (as is the most common situation), then that's very rough on us.
Yes, they have a tough time beating a resolved Wurmcoil (or really any 6+ drop). The problem has always been getting to play said 6+ drop without dying first. I actually try and push my "bomb" curve down instead of up against them. While All is Dust is amazing against them, you're very unlikely to get to cast / resolve it (on top of it growing their Tarmogoyf if it gets countered).
Lodestone Golem isn't that great against them either since it still only costs them 2 mana to Lightning Bolt it.
The best way I've found to beat RUG is to simply keep hands that have plenty of lands and accelerants. Worry less about opening bombs because any of our bombs will pretty much win the game against them. Making our land drops and getting our mana online is much more key to winning the match.
This.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Just crushed Red MUD 2-0 again. It was a stax type build. Game 1 he got out 2 Thorn of Amethyst, a Tangle Wire, and was attacking with a Simian Spirit Guide. I eventually played Steel Hellkite, killed his thorns, and played Wurmcoil Engine of a Thran Dynamo with Voltaic Key and a land. GG. Game 2 he fails spectacularly. He drops Magus of the Moon turn 1, and I further prove that Magus sucks as I simply play three lands, play Metalworker (nice turn 2 Trinisphere), and use that for Steel Hellkite and Batterskull. GG.
Red MUD, particularly stax style, is inferior to MUD Stompy.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
It was a stax type build. Game 1 he got out 2 Thorn of Amethyst, a Tangle Wire, and was attacking with a Simian Spirit Guide.
Quoted in bold are cards that do not belong in a properly designed red mud list. I'll post my list later this week when i have more time.
Quote:
Red MUD, particularly stax style, is inferior to MUD Stompy.
MUD is not Stax, thus the variant you played against should be referred to as Red Stax instead of Red Mud or Godo Mud.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
th3 w1z4rd
Red MUD, particularly stax style, is inferior to MUD Stompy.
While this may be true, I don't play either deck because one beats the other, I play them because they win versus the META. So I don't think your assessment is properly grounded. Sure your fringe deck beat his fringe deck, but most other decks would have crumbled to the magus and 3sphere, while you durdled away your turns and would have lost to other decks.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
th3 w1z4rd
Red MUD, particularly stax style, is inferior to MUD Stompy.
You make statements based on fale assumptions.
Your first assumption is that the magic meta will always be the same everywhere. Wich is crap. In certain metas certain choices will be best.
i dont regard your meta as very good if a mud player resolves to shimian spirit guide, your sure it wasnt dragon stompy you were facing?
Secondly you assume that magus of the moon sucks because YOUR MUD plays around him. So what? Thats proof he fits MUD very well, and all those complainers who said he did not fit MUD because he will screw all our special lands were WRONG. So your contradicting your earlier statements by doing so!
Even if he's useless he still carries a sword and is a possible win.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alex Holland
You make statements based on fale assumptions.
Your first assumption is that the magic meta will always be the same everywhere. Wich is crap. In certain metas certain choices will be best.
i dont regard your meta as very good if a mud player resolves to shimian spirit guide, your sure it wasnt dragon stompy you were facing?
Secondly you assume that magus of the moon sucks because YOUR MUD plays around him. So what? Thats proof he fits MUD very well, and all those complainers who said he did not fit MUD because he will screw all our special lands were WRONG. So your contradicting your earlier statements by doing so!
Even if he's useless he still carries a sword and is a possible win.
It could have been dragon stompy I guess. I never saw any dragons. Sure I played around him but I won because I had big threats and he spent too many cards to get magus out turn 1 and trinisphere out turn 2, which is my point. In order to get him early enough for him to have any effect, it's gotta be turn 1 and for that you need multiple cards. Plus if he gets countered or killed instantly, even worse. Against RUG he's the worst card ever. They play Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Forked Bolt... Plus if they already have a guy or two out he's useless. If you play Magus against RUG, you're an idiot. I don't use swords, I use 4 Batterskulls.
That match was on cockatrice btw. It doesn't represent my meta. No one in my meta sucks enough to use red in their artifact decks. Also there's a guy who plays Forgemaster MUD at my LGS and I always do better than he does.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
th3 w1z4rd
Just crushed Red MUD 2-0 again. It was a stax type build. Game 1 he got out 2 Thorn of Amethyst, a Tangle Wire, and was attacking with a Simian Spirit Guide. I eventually played Steel Hellkite, killed his thorns, and played Wurmcoil Engine of a Thran Dynamo with Voltaic Key and a land. GG. Game 2 he fails spectacularly. He drops Magus of the Moon turn 1, and I further prove that Magus sucks as I simply play three lands, play Metalworker (nice turn 2 Trinisphere), and use that for Steel Hellkite and Batterskull. GG.
Red MUD, particularly stax style, is inferior to MUD Stompy.
You sound pretty silly as the person you played against was obviously running some janky ass deck and not REAL red MUD. I mean who runs simian spirit guide and tangle wire along with thorn of amethyst main deck? Sounds very home brew jank and not really red MUD at all. I'm a pretty big fan of both Mono brown MUD and red-brown MUD, but in my red MUD version (as well as most others that have posted great placement in big tournaments running the forgemaster build), the only red card in the deck is Goblin Welder, which gives a much better game against blue as it gives the deck 4 more must counter spells.
Anyhow I agree that Magus doesn't belong in this deck. Dragon Stompy Yes. MUD, no. I'd sooner run a heavy blue splash for Upheaval.
On another note, went 4-3 drop in Baltimore a few weeks ago. yup, I could have still made top 64 (probably not top 32), but I had a long drive ahead of me and my friends were waiting around town so I thought I may as well drop and enjoy the rest of the weekend since I had no chance of making top 8.
Lost against:
Merfolk 0-2
First game he had a fast clock/big army and a couple of well played counters.
Second game I lost to Dismember and a fast clock.
This has been a tough match up for me in general and I've only beat it once in a tournament actually. It's definitely not a "problematic match-up" but it aint easy.
Death and Taxes 0-2
Game one took about 35 min and I had him down to 1 but couldn't finish the job. There was a long stalemate with me having a platinum emperion with greaves and a batterskull, and he held me off with flickerwisp tricks, batterskull, cataclysm and other stuff until he got a mirran crusader out with a jitte plus 32+ counters. I scooped eventually once I had no outs and realized it was only a matter of time before he got a mangara lock.
Game two only 15 min left in the round and I mulliganed aggressively which costed me the game.
This match up amongst others made me realize that platinum Emperion is pretty bad. Often I just with he was a second Blightsteel colossus or a platinum angel. I will be cutting him starting next tourney.
Jund
0-2
He won the role, which is pretty crucial in this match-up. Turn one thoughtseize can hurt this deck... A LOT, and it hurt me along with wasteland. Followed up by a big goyf I stood no chance. Game two was pretty much just like game one. Jund is also a really hard match-up for me but it totally depends on the role. If I win the role i'm usually in good shape; especially when Chalice is involved. Wasteland can be this decks biggest nightmare often times, and in this case it totally was.
I beat:
Elves Combo 2-1
12 post 2-1
U/G 12 post 2-0
Shardless BUG 2-0
Land:
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
2 Darksteel Citadel
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Lightning Greaves
3 Voltaic Key
1 Staff of Domination
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
2 Batterskull
4 Goblin Welder
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Steel Hellkite
Some feelings about the card choices based on my matches
1. Batterskulls really underperformed for me but they can also be really amazing in the deck. I'm going to test as a 1 of. I also thought of cutting it entirely and running 3 Steel hellkite instead.
2. I wish I had some maindeck removal, either Karn, Liberated or spine of ish-sah.
3. Still not sure how I feel about Staff of D as a 1 of. It can give you an occassional surprise win or pull you out of tight spots once in a while but usually it's just a win more card in my experience. I want to test it as a 4 of actually. I know it sounds bad, but we are playing a combo deck here right? 3 more staff = higher chances of combo-ing out. I will also run 3 spellskite in the sideboard and 1-2 maindeck when I test this.
4. Emperion should be platinum angel or just cut it to the sideboard.
5. Goblin welder is pretty solid. I'm still not 100% on him as I love my mono brown list/mana base, but Goblin welder does some wonders. Also tricks with grim monolith for pumping up mana are great if you're short on mana.
Also props to all is dust for winning me my first 12 post match up. He got his defenders out and I was about to face a turn 3 monster, but all is dust wiped his mana producers out and I was able to get ahead and stomp.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lukatron2
Land:
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
2 Darksteel Citadel
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Lightning Greaves
3 Voltaic Key
1 Staff of Domination
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
2 Batterskull
4 Goblin Welder
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Steel Hellkite
Some feelings about the card choices based on my matches
1. Batterskulls really underperformed for me but they can also be really amazing in the deck. I'm going to test as a 1 of. I also thought of cutting it entirely and running 3 Steel hellkite instead.
2. I wish I had some maindeck removal, either Karn, Liberated or spine of ish-sah.
3. Still not sure how I feel about Staff of D as a 1 of. It can give you an occassional surprise win or pull you out of tight spots once in a while but usually it's just a win more card in my experience. I want to test it as a 4 of actually. I know it sounds bad, but we are playing a combo deck here right? 3 more staff = higher chances of combo-ing out. I will also run 3 spellskite in the sideboard and 1-2 maindeck when I test this.
4. Emperion should be platinum angel or just cut it to the sideboard.
5. Goblin welder is pretty solid. I'm still not 100% on him as I love my mono brown list/mana base, but Goblin welder does some wonders. Also tricks with grim monolith for pumping up mana are great if you're short on mana.
Also props to all is dust for winning me my first 12 post match up. He got his defenders out and I was about to face a turn 3 monster, but all is dust wiped his mana producers out and I was able to get ahead and stomp.
1. Batterskull is a winner against burn. Also against exile effects like swords to p. Hes ace. I run 4 also because hes tge best 5 mana card we have.
2. I run 2-3 karn Liberated. Hes advantage and a clock.
3. I now why you like welder however i think ge fits forgemaster builds more because of the saccing. Plus i dont want my cavern on goblin.. But i think this is the non forgemaster combo thread..
4. Platinum angel is a serious option. 7 mana is better than 8 in this deck i think. Plus evasion! But what matchups should he make better? Maybe ill try him as lucky one off.
5. All you should go try godo. Godo is the man. Nobody expects him right now.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alex Holland
1. Batterskull is a winner against burn. Also against exile effects like swords to p. Hes ace. I run 4 also because hes tge best 5 mana card we have.
2. I run 2-3 karn Liberated. Hes advantage and a clock.
3. I now why you like welder however i think ge fits forgemaster builds more because of the saccing. Plus i dont want my cavern on goblin.. But i think this is the non forgemaster combo thread..
4. Platinum angel is a serious option. 7 mana is better than 8 in this deck i think. Plus evasion! But what matchups should he make better? Maybe ill try him as lucky one off.
5. All you should go try godo. Godo is the man. Nobody expects him right now.
uhhh, dude... The first deck posted in this thread, which gave way to MUDs modern day success is a forgemaster list... "...Michael Bomholt (creator of Iggy Pop – the predecessor to the modern Ritual-Based combo archetype) came second at a StarCityGames Legacy Open in Indianapolis with a modernized MUD list. The list featured tools from Urza block and both Mirrodin blocks... Anyhow as far as I know this thread is for all versions of MUD which is cool. It would also be cool to have separate threads. If you want you should start a thread for the stompy build in the new and developmental thread as I haven't seen it post any numbers in any large tournaments ;p
Anyhow yea I've been trying out lists every tournament and Sometimes I run Karn as a 3. I think I'm going to keep him in the deck as a 3 of as he usually rocks the house and gives me some removal.
Angel is a clock, an 8/8 with no evasion can be held off for a long time. At least that's what has happened to me historically when I drop an emperion. you're right, 7 mana vs 8 makes a world of a difference.
Godo seems pretty legit and I would like to test him some time. However I don't own any. A second combat phase seems pretty good. :p
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Plus emperion makes that you wont lose and emperion only freezes life total. That could be relevant. Cant see when but could be.. lol.
I actually tought this was a stompy thread since thats all what was discussed here the past century, but they are really different animals stompy and forgemaster.
FOrgemaster had some results in the past but i feel stompy is more versatile and less based on lucky draws. 2014 is going to be a stompy year my friend.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lukatron2
You sound pretty silly as the person you played against was obviously running some janky ass deck and not REAL red MUD. I mean who runs simian spirit guide and tangle wire along with thorn of amethyst main deck? Sounds very home brew jank and not really red MUD at all. I'm a pretty big fan of both Mono brown MUD and red-brown MUD, but in my red MUD version (as well as most others that have posted great placement in big tournaments running the forgemaster build), the only red card in the deck is Goblin Welder, which gives a much better game against blue as it gives the deck 4 more must counter spells.
Anyhow I agree that Magus doesn't belong in this deck. Dragon Stompy Yes. MUD, no. I'd sooner run a heavy blue splash for Upheaval.
On another note, went 4-3 drop in Baltimore a few weeks ago. yup, I could have still made top 64 (probably not top 32), but I had a long drive ahead of me and my friends were waiting around town so I thought I may as well drop and enjoy the rest of the weekend since I had no chance of making top 8.
Lost against:
Merfolk 0-2
First game he had a fast clock/big army and a couple of well played counters.
Second game I lost to Dismember and a fast clock.
This has been a tough match up for me in general and I've only beat it once in a tournament actually. It's definitely not a "problematic match-up" but it aint easy.
Death and Taxes 0-2
Game one took about 35 min and I had him down to 1 but couldn't finish the job. There was a long stalemate with me having a platinum emperion with greaves and a batterskull, and he held me off with flickerwisp tricks, batterskull, cataclysm and other stuff until he got a mirran crusader out with a jitte plus 32+ counters. I scooped eventually once I had no outs and realized it was only a matter of time before he got a mangara lock.
Game two only 15 min left in the round and I mulliganed aggressively which costed me the game.
This match up amongst others made me realize that platinum Emperion is pretty bad. Often I just with he was a second Blightsteel colossus or a platinum angel. I will be cutting him starting next tourney.
Jund
0-2
He won the role, which is pretty crucial in this match-up. Turn one thoughtseize can hurt this deck... A LOT, and it hurt me along with wasteland. Followed up by a big goyf I stood no chance. Game two was pretty much just like game one. Jund is also a really hard match-up for me but it totally depends on the role. If I win the role i'm usually in good shape; especially when Chalice is involved. Wasteland can be this decks biggest nightmare often times, and in this case it totally was.
I beat:
Elves Combo 2-1
12 post 2-1
U/G 12 post 2-0
Shardless BUG 2-0
Land:
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
2 Darksteel Citadel
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Lightning Greaves
3 Voltaic Key
1 Staff of Domination
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
2 Batterskull
4 Goblin Welder
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Steel Hellkite
Some feelings about the card choices based on my matches
1. Batterskulls really underperformed for me but they can also be really amazing in the deck. I'm going to test as a 1 of. I also thought of cutting it entirely and running 3 Steel hellkite instead.
2. I wish I had some maindeck removal, either Karn, Liberated or spine of ish-sah.
3. Still not sure how I feel about Staff of D as a 1 of. It can give you an occassional surprise win or pull you out of tight spots once in a while but usually it's just a win more card in my experience. I want to test it as a 4 of actually. I know it sounds bad, but we are playing a combo deck here right? 3 more staff = higher chances of combo-ing out. I will also run 3 spellskite in the sideboard and 1-2 maindeck when I test this.
4. Emperion should be platinum angel or just cut it to the sideboard.
5. Goblin welder is pretty solid. I'm still not 100% on him as I love my mono brown list/mana base, but Goblin welder does some wonders. Also tricks with grim monolith for pumping up mana are great if you're short on mana.
Also props to all is dust for winning me my first 12 post match up. He got his defenders out and I was about to face a turn 3 monster, but all is dust wiped his mana producers out and I was able to get ahead and stomp.
You lost a game to Twelvepost. Your argument is invalid.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
At least he posted a list and some results. Thanks for being arrogant and adding nothing.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alex Holland
At least he posted a list and some results. Thanks for being arrogant and adding nothing.
I think she/he's just full of herself/himself after beating that bastardized Red MUD deck. I would feel high and mighty myself if I achieved the same thing (not really).
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
th3 w1z4rd
You lost a game to Twelvepost. Your argument is invalid.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alex Holland
At least he posted a list and some results. Thanks for being arrogant and adding nothing.
I posted a list and report a page or two ago. I would have been undefeated if I hadn't forgotten that Pithing Needle doesn't affect Metalworker. Admittedly a dumb mistake.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Just found another great piece for my homey godo: a one off argentum armor. Think about it: 9/9 with anihilator 1. That can attack twice each combat. It aint broken but why not add one armor for situations where a free battetskull doesnt help? Godo FTW
