Thanks for the insight. I have less combo in my meta, basically elves and ant, so force is less necessary.
I never thought of ooze in the sb.
I play one more land than you I believe. 22 feels comfy to me for some reason.
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Thanks for the insight. I have less combo in my meta, basically elves and ant, so force is less necessary.
I never thought of ooze in the sb.
I play one more land than you I believe. 22 feels comfy to me for some reason.
Ran back the same list at a 20 man.
2-0 esper mill.
The guy was nice and advocated his desire to make mill competitive. It's great to see that kind of hope.
2-0 lands
I had double goyf on t3 and they were 6/7 each. Fastest clock I could have had.
Game 2 I sat on surgicals and he had a slow hand. Surgical on loam and dark depths is the lock.
2-1 mud
He had chalice on 1 t1 every game. Lucky I don't lean as hard on them.
Never saw a waste all 3 games. Lily won me this match. Always make your opponent remember their chalice trigger.
Also decay was great but lodestone wrecks legacy.
Two ID
3-0-2 first going into top 8.
1-0 shardless.
He resolves all 4 visions. 3 off agents. I still out resource and win.
We sideboard and he decides the marathon game one was enough to show him the matchup and concedes to me.
The deck plays likes a dream. I would like to find room for the 4th decay. Other than that mainboard felt great and the sb can mold with the meta. Surgical is great against lands. Specifically dark depths.
I played a 20 man 4 rounder saturday. Replaced a MD TS with a Goyf to go up to 4.
2-0'd Junk. Game 1 he got threat light so back to back force once I had goyf + tnn was enough tempo. Game 2 my hand was bayou, 2 waste, 2 deathrite, 2 goyf. next 2 drawsteps were goyf/waste. That game was easy mode.
2-0'd Shardless. Game 1 was the exact reason I am on truths over agent/AV. He top decked visions..ok suspend, I draw truths, gas up and kill him before the turn before he gets 3 cards.
1-2 Big red This was the guy on SCG a bit ago on the big red. Turn 1 moon gets game one as I have 3 fetches in hand. Game 2 He is on the chalice plan but I just beat face with goyf. Game 2 I pierce turn 2 moon but misplay and do not brainstorm main phase and play needle on sneak. I get hit with a grisel, wurmcoil and a 15/15... and he would have had 2 3/3s and 3 5/5s after the sac haha. oh well. lesson learned.
2-0'd belcher.... it was belcher. I had a chill in my board so game 2 I force smth turn 1 and play chill then lily.
Deck felt very smooth.
Big red seems like a sketchy matchup. Otherwise solid report and great finish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4ik
Truths is really good.
I think Big red is an Ok matchup. Dangerous in the same way keeping a non fow hand is dangerous against belcher. We have basics to fetch for if we have a couple turns, we have decay for chalices to go along with discard so a lot of early game interaction. I def think it was a mistake to not put the needle in play but I wanted to hold up pierce instead. Sol lands and petals made that a no go.
I was pleased with truths. That card was amazing. 3 mana is in the perfect spot of playing it after the first few turns once you need to gas up.
Why do you guys play 2 Painful Truths over 2 Sylvan Library?
Library can be removed without any value gained. Truths is immediate. Library is more often selection and not advantage. I just want raw and advantage because I feel my cards are better than my opponents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manipulato
Can u post ur list plz?
Library is slower, and 4 life a card is a lot more than 1 life per card. I also play snapcaster so countered or discarded truths can be flashbacked. I honestly dont like library in blue decks. In things like jund or junk or elves where you have limited card draw/selection it is a great card to have, but its doesnt fulfill the role of refilling a hand as easily as truth. I have 4 bs/2 ponder for selection and so truths is filling the need for raw card count. 3 cards for 3 mana and 3 life and getting them immediately which is big in matchups where you are looking to continue to develop or hunt for certain cards (like force) the difference is huge.
@fluu- Both Ricardio and I have our lists 1 page back. (+/- a few cards)
I 100% agree. I'm not as high on snap but I see how it can be amazing. Tombstalker has been pretty good. I need to find room for a 4th decay. May be in the side though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4ik
I haven't had a chance to take this to a real event in a bit, but 4-1 in practice matches (beat Miracles, Grixis Delver, TES, and MUD, lost to D&T) with this list tonight.
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Painful Truths
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Murderous Cut
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Bayou
Sideboard
2 Flusterstorm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Disfigure
2 Duress
1 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Sylvan Library
1 Envelop
I really like the Sylvan Library in grindy matchups like Shardless and Miracles where card quality is going to matter simply because the games will go long, or in matchups where I want to be maximally mana efficient while still hitting my land drops, like Delver or Death and Taxes. I'd love to find room for a Loam in the 75, but there just isn't enough recursion in the deck to maximize it, so it's mostly to hit land drops and occasionally Wasteland lock people. We're worse at the Wasteland game than Delver is, and more and more people are just running some number of basics anyway, so the latter plan is pretty weak. Snapcaster is great, and I couldn't dream of cutting him. It may even take the second (or third) Snapcaster Mage to push me toward Loam. I'm basically conceding the Lands matchup with this configuration, but short of hurting other matchups to get it to maybe 40% postboard I don't think there's a reasonable path forward there.
EDIT: Sideboard only had 13 cards listed. Added Duress.
I didn't think of cut but tom stalker fills the delve slot. I hate pierce so I cut it. I added two stifle to the board, they seem perfect for the matchups we are weak to such as lands and combo. I added the 4th decay.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
As for library, I adhere to the if it's blue what the point school of thought. There are just better cards.
As for loam, this card has been an absolute house. 1 main and 1 side. It beats wasteland decks and crushes delver. I would never go below 2. It has won me so many games. I have waste locked death and taxes as well as lands.
I will try to post an updated list soon.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 goyf
1 tombstalker
2 Baleful Strix
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 True-Name Nemesis
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Painful Truths
3 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Thought Seize
1 pulse
1 loam
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Bayou
Sideboard
2 stifle
1 nihil Spellbomb
2 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm
1 garruk relentless
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 force
2 surgical
1 cage
1 loam
1 notion thief
If we're talking about what slots are different in our lists, I'd actually say that my Murderous Cut is either your Maelstrom Pulse or third Liliana and my MD Garruk in the Tombstalker slot. I'm not sure which configuration is optimal, though Pulse + Garruk is certainly the most flexible way to split those cards over 2 slots, although I do like Murderous Cut's ability to kill manlands. The list can totally support 3-4 Delve spells (especially with Loam), I just don't have room in the list for anything else right now. My issue with Loam in my current list (other than space) is that it fills much the same role that Sylvan Library does in many matchups (i.e., hitting land drops, giving you cards to pitch to Liliana) but can only achieve that through Lands, requires a continuous input of mana, and makes us more vulnerable to graveyard hate. In short, there are few if any better cards than Sylvan, and it's the sideboard card I'm most likely to move back into the main. I'd be interested in seeing a list that runs Cabal Pit, Cephalid Colesium, Onslaught cycling lands, Retrace spells,Tasigur, or more Snapcaster Mages to give us more to dredge into, but as it stands Loam just isn't finding enough business for my liking, and if you can afford to spend 2 mana on your main phase without affecting the board against Delver or D&T you're probably winning anyway. Not running Loam does weaken my Lands matchup, so I'd like to find space in the board for it.
Finally, you mentioned finding combo matchups difficult. I think that's just a result of how you've built the maindeck to be stronger against 'fair' decks, whereas I have to work a bit harder against 'fair' strategies but end up about 50/50 against combo preboard and favored postboard since I have more generic interaction with counters and discard where you're running additional removal and creatures. Stifle just seems worse than discard to me, and I absolutely love Pierce. I could be persuaded to go to 4 Thoughtseize/1 Pierce, but one of the biggest draws to this deck over Shardless is the ability to run reactive spells like countermagic.
With Drs I find my gy to be too heavily taxed. I do like library but I adore loam. I don't feel the need to run utility lands because wasteland does a lot of work. I don't need cut bc I run the 4 and loam to deal with man lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
It's been absurd for me. I agree the flex configuration is arguable and that's why it's flex.
As for combo, there is little to none in my meta so when I come up against it, I find it an issue. I played a lot of delver and stifle seems oddly versatile so I will try it for the duration until it does show itself to be a poor choice.
I gold fished the deck last night for only 16 games and the deck just works so smoothly, I love it.
Thanks for all the input. I want this thread to live and this deck to become a contender once again.
I truly believe this deck is stronger than shardless.
No problem. I like working on this deck too since I feel like it's less solved and lower variance than Shardless. I'm less convinced that it's strictly better, since Shardless is just a higher velocity deck and seems to have more polarized matchups overall.
As for flex slots and whatnot, we do seem to have converged on a core of the deck, and can fill the rest in as we test more.
I'm going to go back to pierce. It's very necessary. I'm loving the 4th decay.
Merry Christmas to you all.
Played in a 35 man tourny on saturday. I went 4-1 into the top 8 but lost round 1.
2-1 Elves- Game 1 did not see any removal. got hoofed after countering NO next turn he hardcast the second. Game 2 I forced DRS and then played goyf into 2 wastelands and he was stuck on only cradle. Game 3 I blew up 2 chokes and landed jitte.
2-1 Rug- Kept a 1 land drs plus bs hand. Got wasted plus bolt and never drew another land. Game 2/3 I had normal lands so just ground him out.
1-2 shardless. Beat him with truths game 1. Game 2 was close but 2 visions went off on turn 5 and 7. Game 3 went to turns, I had him at 1 but never found another creature and his goyfs got me.
2-1 burn- Got burned game 1, game 2 jitte on goyf and game 3 snapcaster chumps on guides and eidelons made for a large ooze.
2-1 bug delver- Very close games but I was slightly more power with Tnn and truths and lilys.
3rd seed- 1-2 infect- Game 1 he got me on regular damage due to 4 nobles plus invigorate beserk got over my strix as a blocker. never saw a decay all match. Game 2 had some disruption with ts and waste. Game 3 he killed me on turn 3 with force back up. I played turn 2 strix and he animted inky invigorate berserk for the trample.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4ik
List plz?
I did poorly Sunday so I'm revamping things. I can't seem to beat taxes. I will post updated list when I get a chance.
My list from sunday:
2 bayou
2 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 island
1 forest
1 swamp
1 creeping tar pit
3 wastland
4 polluted delta
2 misty rainforest
2 verdant catacombs
4 deathrite shaman
4 tarmogoyf
2 baleful strix
3 snapcaster mage
2 true-name nemesis
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 abrupt decay
2 hymn to tourach
2 spell pierce
1 thoughtseize
2 ponder
2 liliana, of the veil
2 painful truth
1 umezawa's jitte
Sb
1 notion thief
1 life from the loam
1 thoughseize
1 hymn to tourach
1 maelstrom pulse
2 surgical extraction
2 jace, the mind sculptor
1 toxic deluge
1 pithing needle
1 scavenging ooze
1 pernicious deed
1 krosan grip
1 chill
The sb could be tighter. The extra hymn could be smth else, it is just a card that I like to bring into control and combo matches. The chill is easily replaced as it is not even that great against burn. Notion thief is kind of a terrible card but I have fun having it in my deck when playing against shardless (as post board they do not have fow and have just disfigure to hit it besides deluge). At 4 mana its a bit much hitting a brainstorm is a lot of fun so there is that.