More reasons to run CB against Goblins. This needs more testing.
3rd Enforcer is going in.
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More reasons to run CB against Goblins. This needs more testing.
3rd Enforcer is going in.
I haven't done enough testing with CB/Top vs. Goblins to make a definitive statement, but when I have tested it, it's been awful for me. Their CCs are all over the place, you rarely get a blind counter with CB, Top manipulation is mana intensive and the whole package is overall too slow to make much of a dent or reliably counter the effects that are most threatening to Thresh.
When I've maindeck CB/Top, I always yank it for games 2 and 3 for BEBs and Chills.
Does anyone who has a lot of experience against good Goblins builds keep it in?
I never used to keep it in, but now with twelve 1 casting cost slots (fanatic, lackey, and vial) and eight 2 casting cost slots (piledriver and warren weirding), it might be worth it. You probably still have to contend with 4 wastelands and 4 ports though, so it likely remains too mana intensive to be worth it post-board. At least now counterbalance is a little more valuable in this match-up pre-board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardo
No, definitley not, I won't play CB against Goblins because of 1 single card. Even of they would play Swords to plowshares again, I wouldn't. It's also not guaranteed that we have a CC2 Spell on top when the edict comes. And the dangerous Goblins like Warchief, Matron and Ringleader will still resolve, the odds of having Enforcer on the Top is quite little. And even those Goblins are enough to make Incinerator good against Goyf. And Incinerator is better than that Edict.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
I find it easy to see that the new Edict is far better than Incinerator against our deck, thus worsening the matchup (pre-board). How many times have you seen an Incinerator kill Goyf ? And, more important, how many times have you seen it BEFORE turn four or five ?
Edict does about the same thing as Incinerator, only three to four turns earlier. This means it can clear a Goyf out of the way for a Lackey or very big Piledriver. It's a bit like Smother in the Goblins build, with the difference being that it can be found with Ringleader and Matron, recurred with Wort and made cheaper with Warchief, meaning that it will show up in your opponent's hand far more often than Smother would. It CAN be countered (but not Stifled), but then the counters are already very busy against Goblins, and like stated above, there's likely to show up another one very soon.
So, I'd think Meddling Mage it is.
Matron can grab threats, Warcheif sucks by without Piledriver, Ringleader hits blanks most of the time with CB present meaning it's a crappier version of Matron.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
Besides, I'll be honest now, I dont care if Ringleader resolves when I have Counterbalance. I'm more than happy to hit the cards that came from Ringleader than struggle to find some stupid Enforcer to put on top. Only the resolution of SCG and Piledrivers I'm worried about.
I've been looking at Death and Taxes recently, and I had a really amazing thought. Instead of Armaggedon in the board for landstill, why not Cataclysm as an all around land sweep/ goblin hate/ more versatile board card? Just keep Counterbalance, SDT, 'Goyf/ Mongoose/ (maybe Enforcer?), Tropical/ island, and proceede to beat face, almost exactly like you would in the early game, but with board advantage (CounterTop), the perfect opening land (Tropical/ Island), and a creature alrealy on the board. Whatever you keep you're bound to have Threshold anyway (unless you're looking at Leyline/ Planar Void, in whicy case if you havn't answered it by turn 4 you've prolly have already lost).
That is all.
Why Cataclysm isn't such a good idea:Quote:
Originally Posted by raharu
- Cataclysm costs double white (sucks against Goblins)
- Cataclysm leaves your opponent a better chance for recovery like "Swords your guy, land, Standstill" against Landstill
- You want to have more than one creature on the board when Armageddon resolves (to finish the game quickly as you have close to no chance of recovering from the loss of so many lands)
Also you don't need the versatility on the expense of more power, just focus on making those few bad matchups (board control) better post board and you should beat almost everything in this damn format (take Ichorid as an auto-loss if you ever face it).
Then why run Armaggedon against Landstill. The play in response you listed is highly situational at any rate, and if you really think that's going to happen, then yet again I ask, why run Armaggedon (or just wait for FoW/ Daze backup before you reset the board and win)?Quote:
Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund
About Cataclysm sucking against goblins... Rework the manabase. They're starting to drop wastes and ports anyways, so it shouldn't be so hard to get WW anymore. It's better and less narrow than Trividar's crusade, at any rate. Overall, this is just starting to look like a better and better idea as the logic progresses, at least as a board card. It's better than the predominant answer in white for Goblins, better than the predominant answer for Landstill, so on and so forth. I think I'll throw together a hypothetical list for "board control" /w threshold (you guys need to find a better name for this deck, ASAP) and post it in a little bit.
Cata-'Grogasm:
Board Control: 3
Cataclysm x3
Counter: 10
Daze x4
Counterbalance x2
Force of Will x4
Cantrips: 11
Sensei’s Divining Top x3
Brainstorm x4
Ponder x4
Removal: 4
Swords to Plowshares x4
Creatures: 10
Nimble Mongoose x4
Tarmogoyf x4
Mystic Enforcer x2
2 free slots (Meddling Mage?)
Lands: 20
Flagstones of Tokair x2
Tropical Island x4
Tundra x4
Flooded Strand x4
Polluted Delta x3
Plains x1
Island x2
Forest x1
The Sugestion of Meddling Mage in a small number seems like a situational, yet decent enough idea, at least for the moment. Pithing Needle on Deed and Mage on StP, and them proceede to beat face with a riotously well protected Meddling Mage after Cataclysm (keeping Dual land, Counterbalance, Meddling Mage, Pithing Needle, with SDT on top of the deck). Maybe... It needs to be replaced (Jotun Grunt?), but as it stands it shouldn't be to bad. At least in the abstract.
Now I'm just a dirty goblins player trolling your boards for insight, but if you boarded in Cataclysm vs. me, I would be thrilled. A resolved Aether Vial (and this does happen) makes this a dead card. I have been testing Warren Weirding, (picked them up at the pre-release yesterday) since the spoil, and the likely hood of taking the turn, dropping a land and weirding your goyf is high. Post board, black goblins will raw dog your hand with Cabal Therapy. Don't expect a cushy hand full of permission. Sure you can protect it with b'storm, but we are sneaking in lacky and vial that same turn, and just as soon have you draw into fow and daze.Quote:
Originally Posted by raharu
Cataclysm, seems like a curious answer to a board position/game state that doesn't (or rarely) exist(s).
Edit: Also, who cuts wastes? Ports? sure. Wastes? never. Edit 2: Also, I board extripate. ever get to WW after your tundra has been hit with that? Waste your tundra, 'pate your tundra, that's an un-counterable, and otherwise stomp-ass play.
Yeah, Wasteland on a white source -> Extirpate on that land is pretty bad, but the absolute worst case scenario is always going to be. If you fear Wasteland and Extirpate that bad, keep CB and put SDT on top of your deck. Simple. Also, with 3 different types of white sources, two of which are fairly Wasteland proof (basic plains and Flagstones of Tokair), I'm not too worried about getting cut off from white, or even WW. Also, a minor revision in the manabase (that last one was pretty much slaped together for demonstration's sake):
-1 Polluted Delta
-1 Tundra
+1 Flagstones of Tokair
+1 Plains
I think that solidifies the manabase a little bit more.
I'm getting convinced more and more that 4 Spell Snares are great in the main, and ran them in the last tourney I played in. They counter Piledriver, the new edict, Chalice for 1, and Jitte. And thats just against goblins. There is a legitimate 2 drop threat in almost every deck.
If I could see your list, I think it would be easier to evaluate if there should be 4 MD or not. You could be running a 2/2 CSpell/ Snare split, or 3 Snares and another CB. Your argument about Snare hitting Goblins fairly hard is quite solid, though.
My Current List:
// Lands
3 [R] Tundra
1 [TE] Forest (3)
3 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [OD] Island (1)
1 [9E] Plains (2)
// Creatures
2 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
// Spells
1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [NE] Daze
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
I haven't decided whether I like Enforcers or two Sea Drakes instead yet. They both offer pros and cons.
With Drake:
Pros
-It comes out a turn faster/costs less mana. Also only a blue instead of two off colors when facing Moon effects.
-Doesn't rely on Threshold to fly over stuff.
-ups the 3cc number to 3, so you can have a somewhat better chance at actaully countering Deed, Vindicate, Witness etc.
Cons
-Dies to Bolt and Smother, as well as other black targeted removal and burn
-Somewhat that it returns two lands, most of the time doesn't matter
-Enforcer is much larger when Threshed
But as of right now I have playing Enforcers. But's thats only because I don't own Sea Drakes so I don't have much of a choice. Let me know what you think. Be advised that this list is run in Mass where Stax and Dragon Stompy are somewhat popular, but we get a pretty good mix of the best decks
Guys, I need some opinions on this list...
// Lands 18
4 Wasteland
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
4 Tundra
// Creatures 11
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Jotun Grunt
// Spells 31
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Portent
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Engineered Explosives
// Sideboard 15
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Seal of Primordium
3 Krosan Grip
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental blast
2 Armageddon
2 Threads of Disloyalty
Random Seal and EE is to serve as the 2 MD bounce spells. Swords is awesome, but the main reason I'm running White is for Jotun Grunt. Outclasses Goyfs and allows me to play Tempo sooner so I dont have to wait for Geese to Thresh.
SB is questionable. But give me advice what works with this SB.
It's the canadian tempobuild in white, Birdshitstyle. I think I'd try -3 Grunts and - 1 Portent for +4 Meddling Mages since you don't play Counterbalance in your 75 and I somehow got the feeling that it has to be replaced by something. On the other side, Jotun Grunt has got some synergies with the manadenial plan and can sometimes smash mirrormatches preboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
But Meddling Mage could also do so... dunno.
You might noticed that I'm still for a separation of concepts concering the colorsplash, I would not try anything that a other splash can already do better, except if you need some serious (I mean VERY SERIOUS) sideboardoptions against some matchups you are really (REALLY REALLY) afraid of.
I would keep UGR tempoish and UGW controlish (so, the build we all play(ed) with 3 Needles, Enforcers, 3/3 CBalance Engine and so on.
Yea... it's Canadian....
As for MM, I've tested them. I found them rather hard to cast early because of Wastelands. I might consider them again though.
Yes you do become more vulnerable to wasteland however goblins already beats threshold well most of the time! If goblins is so worried about your black source then the less concerned about your green source so....Tarmogyf, nimble mongoose! i however did fix my list to be more consistent, i did agree with you on that. And i was not comparing ghastly demise to stp i think of it as a 5th stp, mostly for the opposing Tarmogoyf or Goblin Piledriver, Nantuko Monastary. I will post my new list eventually. However i am still questioning counterbalance top in the main deck, it just seems to dead, but in the mirror extremely powerful.Quote:
Originally Posted by nastynate
Well, I finally put my hands on a Tarmogoyf set so now I'm ready to play Thres (the controllish one) and I wonder what your thoughts are about some topics:
- How important is Predict to the deck? I've seen some people removing it for more control/counters with certain success, including TriaByFire and others, what are the pros and cons? I certainly provides CA but I sometimes find it needs too much setup, often sitting in my hand several turns until I can use it. I see the standard list including a whole set, is this really necessary?
- 17/18 lands? Just a personal preference? When building my list I found that one slot in this deck can be really important.
- Assuming the Goblins matchup is not the best one, what are your SB strategies against them? By reading this thread I understand the most popular choices are BEBs and Krosan Grip for their Vials. I've seen Tivadar's Crusade been mentioned, what do you guys think about Hail Storm? I admit I haven't playtested that card so I just wonder.
- How useful are those single copies such as EE? Are they only filler for the list?
I would really appreciate to see some questions answered. I know some of this topics have been discussed in one way or another in the thread. Excuse me if some of the questions seem stupid or already well-answered in the thread. Thanks in advance.
Since this build is very permanent heavy, I find it extremely useful. Typically you are going to be playing 5 - 6 creatures that rely on having Threshold. Onto of this, the filtering and card advantage you gain is great. Start with 3 MB and go from there.Quote:
Originally Posted by godryk
I play 17, typically running 7 fetches, 2 basics (Island + forest), and playset of each duel. As for the configuration, it is really dependent on your meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by godryk
BEB, stifle and needle are the way to goQuote:
Originally Posted by godryk
I really like EE and if you can squeeze 1 MB I'd say go for it. It is one of those cards that seems to be equivalent to a swiss army knife. Even when you think it is completely dead, sac it for zero and increase the size of your Goyf.Quote:
Originally Posted by godryk