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I pick a tutor to equilibrate the tutor copies. We don't need a tutor deck. Six tutor, over 4, is better than just four. That's my point. Because i don't want to forget that this is a lands deck. If you run 7 tutors, set of mox, explo, loam and bond,and the artifact stuff, how many lands do you run?Quote:
Originally Posted by Keiichi
36 lands, 3 Mox, 3 Entomb, 3 Manabond, EE, Chimeric Mass, Zuran Orb, 4 Loam, 4 Exploration, 4 Intuition.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
I assumed most people were already playing 6 tutors... I used to play 2 Gamble. My point is why would you cut any of the Intuitions?
We do need to be a tutor deck. Effectively, we're trying to build a critical mass of lands on the board, and Loam is the lynch pin. Yes, we can win without it, but not in an environment where an aggro deck can win on turn 4 easily, often with hate or countermagic, and a traditional combo deck is even quicker. There's a reason a Lands deck doesn't exist in Vintage: It can't keep up. Legacy is only getting faster, and we need to see Loam every game to have a consistent fighting chance. Now, I'm no expert on lands*, and if I'm wrong, so be it, you'll have the better deck, but my recent experience has me convinced we need more ways to find loam; cutting Intuitions doesn't help.
(*I'm not even really happy with my current build, but I don't have the time to test like I used to.)
Hey guys, I'm new to this deck and wanted some advised from those with experience. I tried the aggro version and hated, so I have this built. Any glaring issues that you see? Suggestions?
Artifact - 2
1x Mindslaver
1x Engineered Explosives
Enchantment - 4
4x Manabond
Instant - 4
4x Entomb
Sorcery - 12
4x Gamble
4x Burning Wish
3x Life from the Loam
1x Worm Harvest
Land - 38
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Taiga
1x Bayou
1x Badlands
1x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
4x Tranquil Thicket
2x Forgotten Cave
3x Maze of Ith
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Wasteland
4x Ghost Quarter
4x Rishadan Port
1x Academy Ruins
1x Barbarian Ring
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Riftstone Portal
1x Tolaria West
Sideboard (tentative) - 15
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Dark Confidant
2x Krosan Grip
1x Life from the Loam
1x Firespout
1x Devastating Dreams
1x Hull Breach
1x Worm Harvest
Should the Underground Sea be a Volcanic Island and switch the fetches to Foothills? Do I need a basic land to get EE to 3 vs Blood Moon? General suggestions? Thanks!
Go ahead and cut a cycling lannd for a forest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doomsday
Play postboard games against anything when they play turn 1 tormod's crypt. That will show how good or bad the list is.
While that will get you a vague idea on how the deck handles it won't actualy teach you anything about the deck until you run down every statistical probability. I prefer cutting to the chase and going with proven tech.Quote:
Originally Posted by mchainmail
Here's what I would do.
Go up to 4 Life from the loam
Cut all burning wishes
Cut 2-3 entomb
Cut 3 Ghost quaters
add one maze of ith
Randomize your fetchlands, Run one of each that can fetch for green.
Cut a tranquil thicket if you really want to.
Add a basic forest
Add more Tolaria west.
Add 4 exploration.
That's just my 2 cents.
3 mox are good to me. I'd like the 4th manabond.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keiichi
Don't you run slaver FTW?
I think that gamble gives us a better chance against combo: T1: gamble ----> trap. Besie you can drop a chalice @ 0.
I'm not sure of running gamble and 38 lands.
Or just go for the set of moxen and 35/36 lands...
Just can't decide!!!
Gamble and Entomb are functionally very similar, since you'll be getting a land or Loam almost every time. I prefer the black splash over red, since I get to play Creeping Tar Pit with Bobs and Raven's Crime out of the side. I get the argument about combo, but between making that bad matchup marginally better and having access to Bob, my instincts have me leaning toward the latter.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
Slaver and Chimeric Mass are interchangeable in that slot... Pick your poison, as it were.
I'd never go below 36 lands, and I'd rather be at 38, but I believe I need the extra tutors. I want them to print an Academy Ruins for enchantments so that I can cut down to one Manabond and be done with it...
Manabond is a very awkward card. Sure you can 'explode' game one with it but even then exploration is usually better. Manabond is a 'necessary evil' in lands because if you run solely on exploration and nothing else you're not going to get an exploration every game with just 4 copies and if a copy gets countered you're screwed. Games 2 and 3 it often gets boarded out because it makes us very susceptible to GY hate. Most lists run 3 or less copies usually 3 for the sake of intuition. I have even seen people move it down to 2 because it just isn't that good and if lands players could run 8 copies of exploration would do so instantly because it is leagues better than manabond.
As for intuition. The card is very slow; without a moxen or exploration turn 1 or 2, you are hard pressed to cast it fast. Even using a moxen to get it on turn 2 might be too slow against aggro because you just spent your first 2 turns playing 2 lands + mox diamond. Or if you have exploration great you can get it turn 2 maybe and have turn 3 loam engine rolling. The card shouldn't be a 4 of IMO it's more like a 2 of or 3 of due to how slow it is.
Entomb is fine. You usually grab loam with it or riftstone portal or some other random land if you have loam active. I really like it the card is a vampiric tutor in this deck without the card disadvantage or lifeloss associated with it. Any build running black should run a minimum of 2 if not more.
Against combo. Leyline of sanctity + null rod is the stones. Null rod especially is incredibly powerful against combo decks like TES which relies on artifact mana a lot. Shutting down LED is amazingly good along with the rest of their artifact mana. Or you could go mindbreak trap + null rod. But play null rod the card is very good. It also fights crypt and relic as a bonus and screws meandeck mud hardcore.
I can see burning wish only if extirpate becomes relevant. Otherwise it's just not as good as other options you could be playing I haven't seen it run in a list for ages personally and plenty of people in the area play lands variants. Gamble is just better as is entomb.
Also Doomsday mchainmail is right cut one cycle land for a forest. You rarely need 4 tranquil thickets to be successful 3 or maybe even 2 is the right number. You don't want it to clog your hand or dredge too many of them.
So...this this my insight with 6 tutors and moxes for discussion:
3 Manabond
4 Exploration
1 Mindslaver
4 Life from the Loam
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Zuran Orb
4 Intuition
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
1 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Barbarian Ring
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Gargoyle Castle
4 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Academy Ruins
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Riftstone Portal
3 Tolaria West
1 Karakas
3 Mox Diamond
1 Oblivion Stone
2 Gamble
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Flame Jab
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
I'm a bit a afraid of running 3 manabond but...
@ Dark Ritual
I am a Lands and TES player. Trust me Leyline of sanctity with null rod is not going to win you the game agains a good TES player, i would smile at that hate. It might if your also bringing in a bunch of creatures to kill me with quickly, but those hate cards dont rly prevent me from going off. they will draw ~25 cards and use them to kill you hate and win. dont get me wrong there isnt much a lands player can do against TES. We give them way too much time to set up and they only really need 1 maybe 2 lands to win the game.
I am curently testing Burning wish. Buring wish allows us to hate on moon effects, leyline of the void, extripate, and enchantress. my sidboard options are (Loam, Hull Breach, Firespout, meltdown, reverent silence) it may not seem worth it but it provides answers to the cards we struggle the most against.
I also think intuition is a must in this deck. 1 card that tutors for 3... seems like a must play to me.
I also think intuition is a must in this deck. 1 card that tutors for 3... seems like a must play to me.[/QUOTE]
I concure with this. But I consider it a tutor for 3 over the course of two turns at most, my usual 3 picks tend to work with themselves. Ex, Life+Tranquil Thicket+Tolaria west is always a fun choice to throw out on the table. ;)
Here is the list that won the 123 players Mercadiade:
http://mercadia.de/home/page.php?sit.../deck&id=88289
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Maze of Ith
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
3 Tolaria West
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Academy Ruins
1 Barbarian Ring
3 Mox Diamond
1 Mindslaver
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Zuran Orb
4 Manabond
4 Exploration
4 Intuition
4 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
I'm going to a tournament tomorrow morning, and I want to get Gamble back in the deck. The only games I lose are ones where I don't draw Loam, more or less. I'm thinking:
Main Deck
1 Academy Ruins
1 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
4 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Rishadan Port
1 Savannah
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Taiga
3 Tolaria West
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
1 Manabond
1 Meekstone
4 Mox Diamond
1 Smokestack
1 Zuran Orb
3 Gamble
Sideboard
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Cursed Totem
4 Dark Confidant
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Extirpate
1 Ghostly Prison
2 Krosan Grip
1 Null Rod
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Tormod's Crypt
Taking out:
1 Entomb
1 Manabond
1 EE
1 Sensei's Divining Top
I know it's greedy, but I think the deck can handle the color requirements.
Was the cursed totem put in after Barnello played it in Edison, or has it been the the sideboard since before then?
It's been in the sideboard since I "rediscovered" the card playing MODO. The matchup against Mangara / Karakas decks aren't that good, as they can just remove any hate cards we drop.Quote:
Originally Posted by chinEsE girl
Thrilled to see the Enlightened Tutor thing gained steam! Question about Gamble: Why not Entomb? If you want to get a loam, might as well have it ready for dredging immediately, no?
I top 8ed a 49 person (proxy) event today, losing to MUD, beating New Horizons twice, Junk and Time Spiral, IDing with ANT, and losing to Big Zoo with Price of Progress in the top 8.Quote:
Originally Posted by iostream
Entomb is an instant, which is pretty sweet. But Gamble has a lot more flexibility to find enchantments or anything else, including sideboard cards. It's the sort of decision that needs a lot of testing, I'm sure.
How did your games against Time Spiral shake out? I played against Solidarity last year at SCG Seattle and lost on Turn 8 or 9 even though I had Extirpated his High Tides AND resolved Trinisphere. I was playing Eternal Garden, but I think the decks are close enough that our strategies are similar. (The Eternal Garden thread has been dormant for a long time. I haven't been playing the deck much recently, but I've been tinkering with it. My local meta isn't right for the deck. I'll have to give it another go when things shift.)
Game 1: Resolve T2 Smokestack, he plays Candelabra for another permanent after resolving about 3 Meditates, I EE it away.Quote:
Originally Posted by ESG
Game 2: I play t1 Dark Confidant, but hit nothing else and die on turn 4.
Game 3: I land Chalice at 1 and Bob, start beating down. I keep Extirpate open for the whole game, and have double port. He has Repeal but can't bounce Chalice.
Sorry for the triple post, <forum problems.