[Deck] Pox

Fetches only main advantages in monoB lists are that they fill up your yard for Tombstalker, and to a lesser extent they combo with Crucible to make sure you make a land drop every turn.

Both are semi-useful functions and supporting Tombstalker is actually extremely valuable so if your build plays both Crucibles and Tombstalkers, I would still play fetchlands even in monoB lists. But I agree with you, the lifeloss is a pain so fetches probably aren't worth it in monoB lists outside of lists that play both Crucible and Tombstalker. But if you're playing Crucible, you're almost certainly playing both Factories and Wastelands, and in such a list, 3 Urborg is essential as well, and that itself eases the pain of the fetches a bit.

Hmm, I'm a big fan of Tomby, but I only run a single Crucible. Would they replace swamps 1-for-1? My lands would be, in that case, 4 fetch, 15 swamps, 4 Mishra's Factory. Is that just crazytalk, or what? The lifeloss is very relevant, I think...

I've never played a configuration similar to yours (though it seems solid) so I honestly don't know. I might try 1-2 Urborg and 3-4 fetchlands in there instead of just 4 fetchlands. But once again, I'm not speaking from experience.

Well, the point of having fetches in mono-colored is not to color-fix but rather to thin out land-draws, so I wouldn't think Urborg would be a bonus -- I can just crack the fetch to get black mana if I want to.

My mental debate is whether a straight 1-for-1 replacement of fetches for swamps is capable of conferring any advantage to a Pox deck, or if it makes any sense to replace spells for fetches for Pox shenanigans. At this point, my feeling is that it isn't worth it to run them at all.

Brainstorming here over the land debate....:really:

If I were to say...drop my Urborgs and factories and just run swamps and wastes, would that be counter productive as I run three Crucibles? :confused:

I really only use it so I can use the lands I draw to play any retrace cards in my graveyard (yes I run two "horrible" ravens crime), instead of having to play them (from my hand at least).

just a brainstorming but... has anyone tried golgari thug in a list with tombstalker and crucible???

Usually when I have played pox I have had difficulty in finding a finisher when I achieve board control. If we discard the thug in the early game with a pox effect later on we can dredge him when it is necessary to find a tombstalker or some mishras for the win.

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Originally Posted by matamagos

just a brainstorming but... has anyone tried golgari thug in a list with tombstalker and crucible???

Usually when I have played pox I have had difficulty in finding a finisher when I achieve board control. If we discard the thug in the early game with a pox effect later on we can dredge him when it is necessary to find a tombstalker or some mishras for the win.

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Interesting:confused:

Perhaps this would allow a "chuck" card before playing pox/smallpox, in addition to helping an early tomby

Might be hard to burn four, as I would hope every card in the deck was worth playing

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Originally Posted by Raindown

If I were to say...drop my Urborgs and factories and just run swamps and wastes, would that be counter productive as I run three Crucibles? :confused:

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If you drop Urborg and Factories, then I'd think 3 Crucibles would be at least 1 too many.

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Originally Posted by matamagos

just a brainstorming but... has anyone tried golgari thug in a list with tombstalker and crucible??? If we discard the thug in the early game with a pox effect later on we can dredge him when it is necessary to find a tombstalker or some mishras for the win.

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Golgari Thug:
+Helps Tombstalkers lategame
+No-worry pitch card
+Can put lands into GY, helping Crucible on more turns
+Cheap to cast if you need a 1/1, and can recur a creature, even itself -- helps Nether Spirit (?)
-Usually not worth casting as a 1/1 until you've got something impressive in the GY. In other words, only helpful with Tombstalkers.
-Dumps 4 cards, blindly, into the GY. All the spells are supposed to be strong, useable spells in Pox. This is only helpful with Crucibles in play/Tombstalkers in hand.
-Not as strong as most of the spells in the deck.

I think the verdict is that Golgari Thug can help you run 4 Tombstalkers. Whether running 4 Tombstalkers, and taking up 2+ more slots to help run them, is something worth doing is debateable, though.

I'm not sure Thug is better than Volrath's Stronghold in that case. I've found one Stronghold to be a good number; you find it when you want it, but you don't draw multiples and go 'oops, legend rule.' If it had a two- or three-power body, then maybe, but I can't think of anything like that. Thug, for me, falls back into that 'good enough' category, and 'good enough' is untenable at Legacy's power level.

That also raises the question of how many threats to run and which. I don't know that this deck can sustain too low a number, given that it doesn't have countermagic or anything to protect them (as with Thresh or Team America or StifleNought). A minimum of three Tombstalkers seems good to me, but I don't know what else to use. I'm not opposed to Phyrexian Totem, although I think we can do better. I'm not sure how I feel about Factories outside of the Landstill matchup....sometimes they're just a liability in a deck that otherwise doesn't have many issues with Wasteland. I like Shriekmaw, even if only two or three. I can't remember if this has been discussed, but this looks like a great place for Nyxathid. I'm not even opposed to Juzams, although I don't have a grand laying around to go pick up a set. :rolleyes: (Plague Sliver gets awkward in multiples or I'd just try that.)

I do think it's beyond question that we need dudes who hit hard. This is one of my problems with Factory (although Factory's opportunism is a definite plus). I know there's a lot of cheap fat in black, so I'm sure I'm forgetting something. When you Pox or you roll up enough removal to get your opponent on their heels, you have to get a couple good solid blows in, preferably enough to win the game.

I think I would start with
4 Tombstalker
4 Nyxathid
3 Shriekmaw

and go from there. (I also run one Stronghold by reflex, because I frankly love it.) I'm also not sure about the fourth Tombstalker, especially with Crucible in the deck and with no fetchlands. (I agree that fetchlands are probably a bad idea if you're running only one color in a slow control deck.)

Come to that, why has nobody tried using snow lands and two (or maybe three) Scrying Sheets? Scrying Sheets is stupid good, especially in a deck like this that runs a million basics.

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Originally Posted by coraz86

I think I would start with
4 Tombstalker
4 Nyxathid
3 Shriekmaw

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Are you just running the Shriekmaw for the evoke? I love the fear aspect but isn't :4: :b: a lot of mana?

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Originally Posted by Raindown

Are you just running the Shriekmaw for the evoke? I love the fear aspect but isn't :4: :b: a lot of mana?

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Yes, it is a lot of mana. However, it is a very useful 5 mana. Or 2 mana if you're in a pickle. I run 2, because it costs 5 for full benefit and 3 is too many.

I dislike Nyaxthid because it has zero evasion and the opponent can kill it without doing anything, especially once you're waiting to topdeck something else.

I just started running a single Phyrexian Totem again. I had, long time gone, run 3, but multiples of him SUCK because you have so little mana in general with Pox. I'm not done testing yet. He's good against decks with little to no creatures, but turns into :b: when you can't blast past the crowd, except in emergencies. Not that there's anything wrong with :b: ...

Factory is ... really good, even with Wastelands across the table. I often activate them just to save a Tombstalker from Smallpox. A 3/3 blocker doesn't hurt either. Plus they make Standstill sad :laugh:

Scrying Sheets? Why? 2 mana maybe to draw a land? SDT seems strictly better.

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Originally Posted by coraz86

I like L_D's Contamination-lock idea, and I can get behind a discussion of that, but this isn't Sealed Deck; you can't just play to not lose. That's why you run things like Tombstalker (which is big enough to block and kill a lot of things)

...

@L_D; I had never thought of Epochrasite, for some reason. I like that. How is that working? It still strikes me as being a little slow because of the suspend time, but it does hit for a bunch and it's irritating to get rid of.

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On Contamination:
The lock is ridiculous. Almost no one sees it coming, and the only way to really prevent it is to have either an instant response and untapped mana or a set-and-forget mechanism like Aura of Silence or Pernicious Deed. The interesting thing here is you can use Duress and such to clear your opening. If this hits, and your opponent hasn't already established a winning position that's immune to Pox, you win the game.

The problem is that it doesn't stop what I've found to be Pox's biggest worry after burn: horde decks. Sometimes WW, Elves, Goblins, and others just spill onto the table so quick that even after Contamination, you just can't beat them. Contamination also has the problem that while you can run it with either a Nether Spirit, a Crucible-Factory, or other mechanisms, its a combo which sometimes doesn't win the game, and sometimes doesn't show up. Epochrasite lets you play with it a bit, and make it a 2-turn lockdown. The final problem is that Pox already has a fairly strong match against a lot of control and combo. You're packing a ton of mana-denial and hand-denial, which just bury that stuff. It can be a win-more.

Contamination belongs in the sideboard in most cases, in my opinion.

On Epochrasite:
I can't say enough good things about this card. Since the most prevalent aggro-control and control decks play few creatures, this guy is big enough to chump early, and later on he's a nasty fight for a Treetop Village, Mongoose, or a lot of stuff. He can end the game quickly, overloading the four StP that is the standard. It can buy you time. Most importantly, it also has synergies with, well everything. A lot of people hesitate on a sac-effect with Tombstalker in play, and some run Nether Spirit to compensate. This gives you an additional buffer, and one that does great with Cabal Therapy. A final benefit is that, depending on your build, turn 2 may be a weak area. Hymns are universal, but Sinkhole is not, and you really don't want to cast Smallpox on turn 2.

On Lands:
I personally still run 4 Pox, even though this is not universal anymore. Doing this means I really want to have :b::b::b: on turn three. Just about every variant wants :b::b: on turn two. If you don't run the full Pox playset, then you can quite easily get away with 18 black mana sources. I play 21, and have eschewed Wasteland in favor of more threats and disruption (its not as good without Sinkhole, and those two make you very anti-control). However, if you are going to play the colorless sources (and open yourself to non-basic hate), go all in. Run 14 Swamp, 4 Urborg, and some additional Wastelands and Mishra's Factory, and perhaps back it up with Crucible of Worlds if you like. It makes the deck slower and more controllish, but also more powerful.

The key thing is, whatever you do, you need the black mana. If you're running that many colorless sources, you run four Urborg. There's a good chance someone will want to hit it with Wasteland (you already accepted this, might as well be prepared), and even if they don't, its not as if Smallpox and Pox don't reduce the penalty for dead cards anyway.

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Originally Posted by coraz86

Come to that, why has nobody tried using snow lands and two (or maybe three) Scrying Sheets? Scrying Sheets is stupid good, especially in a deck like this that runs a million basics.

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Because the deck already generates a ton of virtual card advantage. Casting Pox and Smallpox tends to lower the available mana, which would mean Sheets or cast. Moreover, colorless sources hurt if you're not biting the bullet and running Urborg, and to really take advantage you need SDT.

One thing forgotten about the Scrying Sheets engine is while it's good in just about anything running basics, its also a bunch of extra card slots, especially in a deck with heavy color requirements.

Ritual can really eases the mana color dependency too.. in combination with other spells in the deck. Same goes for totem, if you run 6+ colorless like I.

scrying sheets just seems sorta slow and unpredictable. Why not just run infernal contract and/or pains reward, the card adv is ridiculous.

This thread seems coming back to life another time, so i'll share the list i'm running at the moment; after an year or Pox i think i come up with a decklist i like and that's performing well.
First a clarification, i don't own Sinkhole (budget problems), so the actual decklist and the decklists i played in the past were all about trying solutions for a nice and powerful Pox deck without Sinkhole.

// Main Deck //
13 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

3 Tombstalker
2 Nether Spirit

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Innocent Blood
4 Thoughtseize/Funeral Charm
2 Raven's Crime
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 The Rack

// Sideboard //
4 Engineered Plague
3-4 Diabolic Edict
2-3 Nyxathid
3 Infest/Powder Keg
2 The Rack

The decklist that literally opened my eyes was this one that performed 6° on 44 at Dual for Duals this year.
One of the really few decklists on deckcheck that doesn't run Sinkhole, replacing it with more discard (Thoughtseize, Funeral Charms in the list are the budget replacement cause i don't own Tseizes; i think the charms are the best replacement here, suggestions on that thing?) and The Rack as another win condition.
With Nyxathid on Sideboard if you really want to go all in with the discard strategy.
The rest of the deck is an usual Pox, quite the same as the one i was running.
The Sideboard is ofc always a work in progress, but the cards i love for it are in, maybe i would add some graveyard hate if it's prevalent on your meta (like Leyline of the Void or Tormod's Crypt).

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Samsunait

Thoughts?

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I read your earlier list. Did you not like the powder kegs over the racks? was it a matter of too little threats?

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Originally Posted by mujadaddy

I think the verdict is that Golgari Thug can help you run 4 Tombstalkers. Whether running 4 Tombstalkers, and taking up 2+ more slots to help run them, is something worth doing is debateable, though.

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Finding space in the list to check him is very easy, he is just incompatible with nether spirit. In addition both cards fit a similar role in the list: being the perfect target to discard with pox/small pox.

A few pages ago nether spirit has been discussed to be too slow (always the same subject!). Thug can help you to play a tomb in the third turn.

If you manage to have a turn 2 smallpox, you discard the thug and dredge in the third turn you will have 6 cards in the graveyard to play a tombstalker (smallpox, land and the 4 dredged).

I know this example sound like "the perfect hand" but in any situation thug will help you to find/play the tombstalkers, who are the true finishers of this deck.

And now is time to destroy my own arguments: all I have said is pure theory cause I haven't tested him. So it's 90% probable everything I said is wrong and thug is only playable in the world of teletubbies.

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Originally Posted by matamagos

thug will help you to find/play the tombstalkers

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Um. It doesn't help you FIND them at all.

@Samsunait's list: VERY interesting that a Pox deck top8'ed.

I'd like to hear your own thoughts on your list, though, after you play it a while.

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Originally Posted by Raindown

I read your earlier list. Did you not like the powder kegs over the racks? was it a matter of too little threats?

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Powder Keg was good (well, it's still the only good card that black got to answer artifacts), but in a dedicated Discard Pox, you need at least 12 discard effects outside Poxes; our goal is to answer problematic cards discarding them.
This can be risky sure, but as you can see at deckcheck's decklists, Powder Keg is quite used but usually on Sideboard, and i play it too there.
Wasn't a matter of threats, the 3 Tombstalker+3 Spirit+4 Factories were usually enought to kill opponent; with The Rack you get differentiated win conditions, creatures, artifacts and lands (plus, with the small testing i did with this new list, with 14 discard + 8 poxes, sometimes it kills really fast, expecially after a Pox); it's a faster win condition than Nether Spirit; i mainly use it like an utility card and not for winning.

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Originally Posted by mujadaddy

@Samsunait's list: VERY interesting that a Pox deck top8'ed.

I'd like to hear your own thoughts on your list, though, after you play it a while.

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Actually Pox decks top8'ed sometimes and they are still doing it, it's a matter of believing in the deck, being a good and experienced pilot with it (it's not an easy deck to play) and go; the deck itself is at least tier 2 imho.
You can see latest Pox decks that top8'ed here; the last list of May 9 is intriguing me; maindeck Extirpate? seems at least interesting.