[DTB] Vial Goblins

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Media314r8

@ goblins' evolution: Wierding is the best thing for goblins (along with wort, co-incidentaly) since aether vial, don't get me wrong. However, I've seen many, MANY goblins builds that seem to focus on "ZOMG!!!1! This card will like GUARANTEE that lackey hits turn two, OMFG MB 4 immediatly, fuck it, cheat in a fifth!"

---

Weirding isn't just for Lackey.

Early unkillable creatures on the other side of the board have always been one of the most annoying things for Goblins to deal with. Tarmogoyf is of course first and foremost, but you can also throw in the mix old enemies like 3/3 Mongeese, Every Pro-Red Creature Ever Printed, Every Creature With A Butt Of ~4-5+ Ever Printed, Every Guy Who Ever Managed To Wield Equipment.
Any one of these can be a one-sided Abyss for Goblins... Weirding solves that.

It can't kill Mishra's Factories and the like, true. Which is why you still run 1-2 Incinerators.

Incidentally: I'm no Goblins expert, but next time I pick up the deck I'm going to test Sledder. I think it is better than some people give it credit for (however, I'm not going to 'sack all my Goblins to fight Propaganda'. Seriously guys, what the hell are you smoking?).

Given that half the rogue decks in the universe pack Stifle now, Is it now becoming worthwhile to run a few Auntie's Hovel over Wooded Foothills in R/B Builds? Given how bad Goblins is when it runs into mana problems, I can't see the harm in making my manabase more immune to Stifle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Given that half the rogue decks in the universe pack Stifle now, Is it now becoming worthwhile to run a few Auntie's Hovel over Wooded Foothills in R/B Builds? Given how bad Goblins is when it runs into mana problems, I can't see the harm in making my manabase more immune to Stifle.

---

I was actually just contemplating this on my walk home today, as goblins certainly doesn't need/want the mana thinning, as hitting 5 lands is generally desirable. I think it really depends on your meta, as Hovel is better against stifle, but it lacks the ability of fetches to nab basics, so it hurts more if people are running a lot of wastes. Price of progress and back t basics also make hovel slightly less desirable, but the life and un-stifleability make it conditionally better. Again, depends on the metagame, but I would never mock a gobs player running hovels. Certainly a great way for new players to get into a legacy deck. (hell, people aren't even playing drivers anymore!!!... kind-of joking)

What about people running Ancient Tomb and Chalice/Thorn of Amethyst? I suppose it makes it so you can do a turn 2 Matron, or play SGC off of 4 lands, but is that version any good?

Do we need to run green or not? Grip/Tranquility effects help against EP and other pesky enchantments/artifacts, but are they that much of a problem anymore? I suppose black gives us discard if we see fit (Thoughtseize, Duress, Cabal Therapy are all perfectly good candidates).

I think that RB versions are fine running either Foothills or Hovels. It's pretty meta dependent. In places with more Wasteland, Hovel isn't as good. More Stifles makes Hovels better. Both are better than Blood Crypt :P.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Given that half the rogue decks in the universe pack Stifle now, Is it now becoming worthwhile to run a few Auntie's Hovel over Wooded Foothills in R/B Builds? Given how bad Goblins is when it runs into mana problems, I can't see the harm in making my manabase more immune to Stifle.

---

I guess that people want to stifle other things like Fetchlands in a deck with Ringleader, Wasteland and Matron.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Joon

I guess that people want to stifle other things like Fetchlands in a deck with Ringleader, Wasteland and Matron.

---

You're playing threshold and start. Your hand is Tropical, Brainstorm, Stifle, Waste, Goyf, fetch and another card. You play "tropical, go". You opponent starts with wooded foothills, cracks it. No matter what, you're stifling it. Vs unknown opponent the thresh/Landstill player will stifle a fetch on turn 1, as the tempo gain is huge. Will stifle it on turn 2 too if on turn 1 your vial/lackey got countered/killed.

Obviously, nobody will stifle your 4th land.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GreenOne

You're playing threshold and start. Your hand is Tropical, Brainstorm, Stifle, Waste, Goyf, fetch and another card. You play "tropical, go". You opponent starts with wooded foothills, cracks it. No matter what, you're stifling it. Vs unknown opponent the thresh/Landstill player will stifle a fetch on turn 1, as the tempo gain is huge. Will stifle it on turn 2 too if on turn 1 your vial/lackey got countered/killed.

Obviously, nobody will stifle your 4th land.

---

If you play smart you will hardly ever have to fear a stifle getting one of your fetchlands.
1. Don´t worry about it if you are on the play
2. if you are on the draw and they keep one blue mana open play a basic first. I think I had the situation once in my entire testing where i only had multiple fetchlands in my opening hand.
3.If they play blue with stifle they play a deck with a low creature curve and stuff like fow and daze as well, so just play your fetchland and say go... then crack it in response to brainstorm. next turn you start dropping daze-safe threats and trick them into bad counters with fow.


I would like to focus the disussion a little more on the sideboards. My aim isn´t to find the best sb card for the matchup xy but rather a solid 12 card sideboard that is solid vs a great deal of the problematic matchups and still useful in some others. Its ok if this leaves some matchups we sipmly die to. This would leave 3 slots for personal meta choices.

cards to discuss:

Leyline of the Void
Krosan Grip
Tranquility
Anarchy
Thorn of Amethyst
Chalice of the Void
REB
E.E.
Pyrokinesis
Pyrostatic pillar
Pithing Needle
Goblin King/Mad Auntie

Quote:

---

Thorn of Amethyst

---

A must to have, it's quite impossible to cut it from your sideboard.

Quote:

---

Pyrokinesis

---

Every french player I know who tested it really liked it (monoR version and Rb) but I didn't test it personnaly.

Quote:

---

Goblin King/Mad Auntie

---

A mix of Mad Auntie/Dralnu's Crusade in side is really solid. It's far better than Goblin King I think. 2/1 (2 Crusade) or 2/2 could be good. If there's not many plagues in your meta, you can pass to 1 mad auntie only (with Wort if needed).

Quote:

---

Chalice of the Void, Pyrostatic Pillar, REB

---

I've cut all those 3 after test. REB isn't strong enough in Tarmo.meta and you can't find real combo decks in the french metagame.
However, it should be adaptated to your meta, obv.

Quote:

---

E.E.

---

Lovin it. 4 SB. Very good solution indeed.

Quote:

---

Tranquility, Krosan Grip

---

Green is so bad in Goblin :wink:

Quote:

---

Anarchy, LOTV, Needle

---

Didn't test. W isn't good enough in gob. LOTV is 4 or 0, so 0 in my metagame. Needle should be tested, seems solid though.

I think Offalsnout has to be tested in high Icho meta :)

Quentin

EDIT: I think there's no match between Rb version and the rest (excepted monoR). I'm running 2 Wort MD and 1 Warren Weirding as black cards. I didn't test this last one too much, but 2 could also be really good. I've cuted the Mad Auntie MD for the Warren Weirding.

@Roldaice

Three things to think about:

1. Dralnu´s Crusade is not a Goblin! Therefore it doesn´t get cheaper due to a warchief, isn´t recurrable with Wort, isn´t tutorable with Matrone or Ringleader.
2. Not playing green causes some problems. It leaves almost no enchantment removal except for E.E.(max. set to 2) and we lose the single main artifact hate in form of a Hooligan.
3. please explain the Thorn a little more in detail. I think It helps in most Combo matchups - if it doesnt hit the board to late. So does Leyline in addition to hit some other bad matchups like Loam,SotF and Staxx. In what way should I play Thorn over Leyline considering the limited space in my SB?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChillerKiller0815

3. please explain the Thorn a little more in detail. I think It helps in most Combo matchups - if it doesnt hit the board to late. So does Leyline in addition to hit some other bad matchups like Loam,SotF and Staxx. In what way should I play Thorn over Leyline considering the limited space in my SB?

---

You shouldn't. Thorn of Amethyst is awful, narrow, and not all that strong at what it does. Graveyard hate is good, versatile, and powerful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tacosnape

You shouldn't. Thorn of Amethyst is awful, narrow, and not all that strong at what it does. Graveyard hate is good, versatile, and powerful.

---

That is exactly what I was trying to say. they serve the same matchups but Leyline is quicker, uncounterable and more useful in other matchups as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChillerKiller0815

1. Dralnu´s Crusade is not a Goblin! Therefore it doesn´t get cheaper due to a warchief, isn´t recurrable with Wort, isn´t tutorable with Matrone or Ringleader.

---

Just to play Devil's Advocate for a second, Crusade doesn't die to double Plagues either. Ya, that happens...(and honestly, I expect it to happen more to the builds dropping Port...not that I haven't done the same or anything).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChillerKiller0815

@Roldaice

2. Not playing green causes some problems. It leaves almost no enchantment removal except for E.E.(max. set to 2) and we lose the single main artifact hate in form of a Hooligan.

---

While I agree that enchantments can be a problem. We do have answers (Thoughtseize, Therapy, Duress, Anarchy, Mad Auntie vs. Plague, E.E., etc.). So, while Grip is nice, it's not really essential.

I don't see Hooligan as being a strong enough reason, to splash green, because he's already "lost" by accomplishing one of our main goals: getting a Warchief to stick. Personally, I've always found Goblin Tinkerer to be far more synergistic, and it can kill multiple Vials, Chalices, Needles, etc. The Tinkerer also survives a single E. Plague to be able to "pump" Piledrivers, or get to sac'd to a SGC.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by redmage

While I agree that enchantments can be a problem. We do have answers (Thoughtseize, Therapy, Duress, Anarchy, Mad Auntie vs. Plague, E.E., etc.). So, while Grip is nice, it's not really essential.

I don't see Hooligan as being a strong enough reason, to splash green, because he's already "lost" by accomplishing one of our main goals: getting a Warchief to stick. Personally, I've always found Goblin Tinkerer to be far more synergistic, and it can kill multiple Vials, Chalices, Needles, etc. The Tinkerer also survives a single E. Plague to be able to "pump" Piledrivers, or get to sac'd to a SGC.

---

You are talking about having lots of answers in form of Duress, TS, Therapy.... ! Saying that you have them in theory is great and I know that too but I would actually like to see a decklist/sideboard that has included those cards and still doesn´t lose concistency by dropping the amount of goblin cards and although having versitlie solutions vs. other common threats this deck has to face. If you can do that I am more than happy to drop the 3rd color. Duress+TS+Therapy+Leyline+2 Tool Gobbos+others = crowded sideboard:tongue:
But up to now the artifact hate that is a goblin too plus Grip plus being able to run a versitile sb-solution in form of E.E. have been quite good. So please open my eyes for a better way to do it.

Btw I play 1 Tinkerer as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChillerKiller0815

You are talking about having lots of answers in form of Duress, TS, Therapy.... ! Saying that you have them in theory is great and I know that too but I would actually like to see a decklist/sideboard that has included those cards and still doesn´t lose concistency by dropping the amount of goblin cards and although having versitlie solutions vs. other common threats this deck has to face. Duress+TS+Therapy+Leyline+2 Tool Gobbos+others = crowded sideboard:tongue:

---

Lets not get absurd. No one is suggesting running all of those answers together; they're merely options to choose from. After all, you're not currently running Grip, Naturalize, Tranquility, Hull Breach, Break Asunder, Calming Verse, Nantuko Vigilante, Creeping Mold, Decimate, Druid Lyrist, Elvish Lyrist, Emerald Charm, Essence Filter, Hush, Indrik Stomphowler, Molder, Multani's Decree, Mystic Melting, Nantuko Calmer, Nullmage Advocate, Pernicious Deed, Primeval Light, Reverent Silence, Seal of Primordium, Spring Cleaning, Stomp and Howl, Tranquil Domain, and Viridian Zealot by splashing green. That would be a "crowded sideboard". :tongue:

Also, all of those Green cards fall to the same "lose concistency by dropping the amount of goblin cards" clause as well. In other words, the Black options will not cost you any more consistency, than the green ones, by not being goblins. You also gain manabase-consistancy by cutting the 3rd color.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChillerKiller0815

But up to now the artifact hate that is a goblin too plus Grip plus being able to run a versitile sb-solution in form of E.E. have been quite good. So please open my eyes for a better way to do it.

---

"Better" is quite subjective; however, there are solid alternatives in Black. Tinkerer is still "artifact hate that is a goblin". As for Grip plus a versitile sb-solution in form of E.E.; Duress/TS/Therapy are quite versitile. Really though, the final S.B. choices all depend on your meta. If you fear Moat, Solitary Confinement, Sphere of Law, etc., then you could run 1-2 Anarchy to supplement the discard options. If Plague is your main concern you can run 1-2 Mad Aunties to supplement any discard that you may choose to run.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChillerKiller0815

Btw I play 1 Tinkerer as well.

---

So you've already got one less reason to weaken your manabase by splashing Green. ;)

Grip is the best against things like oh any form of counter magic backed enchantments, or pernicious deed and E.E., Chill (its blue=counter magic). Black allows you to have a better match up against combo. Breakfast and maybe T.E.S are to only two viable combo decks in most meta. And grip is an instant.
so when they go turn one dark ritual cast E.P. and you have the hardest time recovering while they dig for the second and then you loose because you dont pack enchantment removal, or targeted removal to kill their Confidant.....yea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EternalDragon09

Grip is the best against things like oh any form of counter magic backed enchantments, or pernicious deed and E.E., Chill (its blue=counter magic). Black allows you to have a better match up against combo. Breakfast and maybe T.E.S are to only two viable combo decks in most meta. And grip is an instant.
so when they go turn one dark ritual cast E.P. and you have the hardest time recovering while they dig for the second and then you loose because you dont pack enchantment removal, or targeted removal to kill their Confidant.....yea.

---

If they go turn 1 ritual -> plague they're probably playing sort of suicide-black deck. Suicide/pikula is not that present in current meta, so that situation is unlikely, and if it hapens you've probably won G1 vs them. You're siding in Mad Aunties too, so if you have an auntie you can still have a decent game, and remember can still win with a plague out quite easily if you're recurring Weirdings with Wort and beat.
After all, you're playing 4 tutorable Aunties and they're playing 4 untutorable Plagues. And if they're playing plague in the SB in current meta, goblins is probably a bad matchup, so you probably just won the first game.

In sum, I don't think we have to worry a lot about plague, because:
- goblins is not that scary thing anymore in the meta, where goyfs are a big deal. People will likely play Thread of disloyalty than plague right now.
- A single plague doesn't ruin your game if it's coming down, like it should, on turn 3 just for the way goblin is built: wort+weirdings, piledrivers+2/2 or 3/3 dudes, Aunties, SGC.
- even with Rb you can prevent a plague coming down thanks to discard, Aunties, mana denial.

Damn, i've gotta learn some synthesis skill.

Tinkerer is just as versitle a solution vs artifacts MB, tinkerer gets better with warchief, tinstreet gets worse. Tin street swings for 2, tinkerer doesnt die to an e-plague. Tinstreet tame-walks affinity, tinkerer can draw concessions from affinity if mad auntie is involved, and can straigt win games. most importantly, tinstreet causes us to run another MD color, weakening the manabase.

IMO Krosan Grip isn't needed in goblins SB. Unless someone can drop a moat AND a humility (to fix the SGC problem) goblins has out against every enchantment, and we obviously can kill artifacts. VS Plague, I have 1 mad auntie MB and 3 more SB. Your tutorable, ringleader-able, swinging anti-hate > their 4 enchantments that sit there not attacking. If your opponent is enough of a sack to have 2 E plagues down before turn four... you probably werent winning that match anyway, Kgrip or Mad Auntie.

tldr; Tinkerer>Tin Street (warchief nueters tin street, tin street makes us splash green)
Mad Auntie > Grip (as long as you're running SGC to beat moat)

EDIT: Let us never speak of Dralnu's Crusade ever again... ever.

This may have been discussed post morningtide. But how do you guys feel about sensation gorger?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Braves

This may have been discussed post morningtide. But how do you guys feel about sensation gorger?

---

Sensation Gorger is pretty random...he acts kinda like a Ringleader, only he gives you a flat 4 cards, not just 0-4 Goblins. The downside is losing your hand, which if you are actively using Matron and Ringleader, should always have good stuff going on in your hand.

I don't think I like it too much. It's something that would have to be tested. He might be like a recurring Ringleader for all I know, but Goblins maindeck is looking pretty tightly packed of needed stuff right now.