I suppose you could just board a Damnation and do one of the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzykat
1) Win with Seismic Assault.
2) Have Volrath's Stronghold in play.
3) Cross your fingers and rip like a pro.
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I suppose you could just board a Damnation and do one of the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzykat
1) Win with Seismic Assault.
2) Have Volrath's Stronghold in play.
3) Cross your fingers and rip like a pro.
I love dre4ms plans.... especially part 3... That plan is so good... I can do it almost at will...
In all honesty though Perish should be able to get the job done. You have to look at the odds as such... The odds they have another critter in play or that they can play quickly WHICH WE CANT ANSWER... then you have to figure the odds of them drawing the other to NO since most lists run 3 (I think)... and also consider the odds of them not drawing Progenitus... If you do the math... The odds are in our favor we can beat them with a Perish...
I ran 1x Perish, 2x Nature's Ruin & 1x Virtue's Ruin in the SB of Grb Aggro-Loam at the Gp...and didn't face a green creature until Round 9...but I was prepared for them... While I went 5-4, I had two matches won if I could have seen it at the time & the deck was extremely resilient. It has also been doing well locally & in testing. Having the ability to side in three hate cards while still being able to Burning Wish for one against powerful & popular decks and the ability to hate on two colors of creatures has been quite nice (won Game 2, Round 9 of the GP vs RGW Zoo by being able to whack FoD and Thoctar with Virtue's Ruin, for ex.). Probably an overload, but a nice overload when merited by conditions.
This is getting absurd. 3 Perish effects in a deck where two thirds of our beaters are green (or maybe you're not playing Terravore)...? I could seem them being useful against exactly one deck, Elves, but nothing else, because even if you can kill two or three of theirs along with your own 'Vore or Goyf, Terminate probably would have been just as good. And don't tell me that we can always Stronghold our creatures back (we run 0-1 Stronghold, and it still eats up our draw step, so if you win by Stronghold recursion while our opponent does nothing, something other than Perish would have won as well).
I think we need to be a little less afraid of Natural Order. Edict should work fine, as there aren't many situations where they have two creatures out and cast Order EARLY (Dreams/Explosives also helps get rid of Mongeese, and Terminate/Explosives against Tarmogoyf). Wasteland against a 4-mana spell with only little acceleration (Werebear) should also work fine. And of course spot discard.
Alot of lists have cut Goyf or Terravore, running 4 Countryside Crusher, 4 Dark Confidant, 3-4 of one of the green creatures. Which reduces the number of your creatures that are hit by Perish. Also most lists are only running 11-12 creatures so it's not uncommon that your opponent will have more guys in play than you do, especially if trying to race you, so it can randomly catch people over extending.Quote:
Originally Posted by georgjorge
I don't think Edict effects are the best replacement for Perish, because they are equally situational, its not uncommon that people have 2 or more threats out. It's better against Goblins or Dreadstill or something than Perish, but even still you're only going to get there worst guy, like midgame Lackeys or a Mishra's Factory or something. In the NO match ups, if someone is going for Progenitus they're likely going to leave a back up guy around, if they know your playing RGb. And Edict is still limited in what match ups its helpful in, maybe less so than Perish, I'm not really sure.
Damnation seems like the strongest choice for a number of reasons. 1) it's less situational, it's going to be good against Tribal, it fills the Perish roll of punishing overextending against much wider amount of decks. 2) It's going to hit the hard to answer permanents Dreadnought or Progenitus, in addition it gives you an answer to Flyers which I've also had issues with in the past when they are able to keep blockers up for CSC or w/e and race you with Enforcer or Tombstalker. 3) And at 4cc it's less susceptible to Counterbalance than the 2-3cc choices.
Its major downside is of coarse that it wipes your board, but I think this is something that if you're playing with the knowledge that this is your strategy, then it becomes alot easier to minimize the damage.
Also I think that Volrath's Stronghold is being undervalued a bit, there are definitely times in the late game where forcing your opponent to answer CSC or Terravore every turn is going to deplete their answers. And obviously with an active Loam the sacrificed draw becomes minimal when its one of 3 cards you're drawing a turn.
Haha score!Quote:
Originally Posted by herbig
Oh and against NO Thresh, I would definitely stick with Damnation due to the parallel goodness against Gobs and Merfolk.
Being a LONG TIME aggro-loam and winning my share of tournaments with it, I strongly approve of Damnation.
[QUOTE=from Cairo;332268]
Its major downside is of coarse that it wipes your board, but I think this is something that if you're playing with the knowledge that this is your strategy, then it becomes alot easier to minimize the damage.
/QUOTE]
While it is fair to point out the downside of Damnation the downside of not resolving Damanation is probably losing thus making the Damnation plan painfully acceptable.
Honestly, against the little swarm decks get a Terravore down stat and roll over them. If all else fails there is Damnation. I think the 2 biggest problem creatures as identified many times in this thread are Progenitus and Tombstalker. Damnation answers both. The cool part is that except against NO Thresh and TA you will not have to play around daze. My only issue is that you may be a titch too slow to answer a really fast Tombstalker but you can't win them all...
Chainer's Edict works really great against those MU.
Damnation seams to have three major downsides:
- you can't always produce the BB, Black is a little splash for confidant and stronghold so this can sometimes be hard.
- You lose your beaters
- It is an 6 mana investment if you want to deal with the creature in one turn.
It is true the chainer's edict wouldn't be strong if there is a small creature next to the Prog or stalker, but you could waste the Manland or Terminate / EE / DD that creature.
So i believe the Damnation is lategame stronger, but in the lategame your beaters will probably be a lot bigger.
Against Swarm aggro decks you play Devastating Dreams.
As far as an argument for Damnation, saying you can just EE, Terminate, Dreams away the other creature isn't good enough because now you need that card + Wish and mana to play removal, wish and edict which will end up being just as much as Wish->Damnation and relys on less cards. Also, Dreams isn't always viable against Tribal if you don't have the cards in hand or if they have Force to stop you (Merfolk, Meathooks etc.)
Also, having played a few games against it, how do we play vs. Tempo Thresh? I know that every other thresh incarnation is pretty simple for us and in testing this has proven true. However, against tempo, they fact that they can burn us out as well as dropping goose and then keeping use from resolving shit seems that make the matchup 50/50 at best. Is the some trick to this match that I am missing?
I have started to run shusher's in my build due to the amount of blue running around. I also have 3 thoughtsieze 3 Ravens Crime to help disrupt an opponent. That's usually good enough to beat canadian thresh with.
Is Shusher in the main/side really worth it? Against blue he's an All-Star but vs other things its a bit lackluster. Also, discard helps but vs Tempo Shusher just eats a bit lightning bolt.
Do you run Chalice in your build because 6 1cc and Chalice seems counterproductive.
Chalice is pretty good against them, as is CEdict.
Oh Hai Thar.Quote:
Originally Posted by sasa_batora
Seems really good here. Gives us resistance to Relic/Crypt as well as being good vs blue. I'll Take 4.
I think shusher is better as it can:
Come down turn 1
Protects ALL of your spells
Make. Chalice. Resolve. At any cost. Really. Just play some must counters like Crusher, Terravore, Assault and Wish and then try to resolve the Chalice. Best with one daze mana open and ofcourse preferably when your opponent is outtaped so he cant Spell Snare it. But this won't happen enough to just wait for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kruchkow
With Chalice, you'll probably win. Without, it's going to be very hard. Especially when you have sacrificed so much to have a chance to resolve it. But, in my opinion, you have no choice. You have to try it.
Do I smell some sarcasm there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kruchkow
BTW, love Behemoth's flavor text, even though it sucks pretty much as a card.
Somewhat. I think it deserves testing as at worst it makes 'Vore and possibly Goyf uncounterable. At least i think so.Maybe I'm crazy. At worst, it'll suck up removal just like Shusher.Quote:
Originally Posted by leander?
They should make one that gives creatures with power 5 or greater Shroud!~Quote:
Originally Posted by sasa_batora
Uncounterability seems pretty blah, since it doesn't effect Crusher and Terravore's 3cc anyway so they often evade the most played counter magic anyway, cept FoW. Not to mention Shusher fills a similar role often doesn't make the cut.
However, shusher doesn't beat face for 5 a turn
Paying four mana for a five power guy with an ability that is sometimes kinda relevant is probably worse than paying four mana for a five power guy that has an ability that's always relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kruchkow
And we all know how playable that five power guy is.
PROTIP: if you're going to play a guy who usually has five power, paying two mana for it is probably better than paying four.
No I don't run chalice. I thought that Shusher was only good in the thresh matchup but that's not true. The amount of decks that play blue or chalice are growing and shusher is great against both. Worse case scenario he's a bear, no big deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kruchkow