[OLD] UGr Threshold

Hey all,

After playing goblins for quite a while and getting irritated that I have little to no control of multiple threats that can mean game, i found the deck too weak for me. I love my standard deck which is a UB control deck and realized that control is the deck for me. After testing landstill and hating it I arrived at UGR thresh and enjoyed it more than any other deck I've tested. And now for some questions..

Firstly, my list:

// Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island

// Creatures (8)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

// Draw (15)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Portent
3 Sensei's Divining Top

// Disruption (13)
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell

// Removal (7)
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fire/Ice

// Sideboard (15)
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Stifle
3 Price of Progress
3 Pyroclasm
3 Krosan Grip

I'm pretty much set with the build and I'm good at playing it. My only questions are:

1. Are my 3 cantrips the right ones? I think Brainstorm is obvious and Ponder is almost obvious. Portent isn't bad because it's like ponder but it can screw your opponent too. I was thinking maybe I should consider Serum Visions instead of Portent since chaining Ponders and Portents is horrible. I wanna stick with 12 minimum :u: costing cantrips so I've considered the :1: :u: ones already.

2. 8 creatures ok? It's working for me, and both are incredibly hard for my opponent to remove.

3. Grip or naturalize in the board? Grip molests opposing coutnerbalances but sometimes i wish i could get an earlier removal on a survival.

4. Stifle or Needle? I found the only matchup where needle is better is survival. Stifle wrecks some decks so I like it.

What do you think?

1. Yes, it's good.

2. It can be alright. I still prefer running Dragon, though.

3. Grip? Hell yes.

4. None of the above. Also, cut 3 Fire // Ice for 3 Pyroclasm/Shackles.

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Originally Posted by Anti~American4621

1. Yes, it's good.

2. It can be alright. I still prefer running Dragon, though.

3. Grip? Hell yes.

4. None of the above. Also, cut 3 Fire // Ice for 3 Pyroclasm/Shackles.

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Thanks for the thoughts firstly.

1. Yeah i was thinking the same.

2. Many people tend to think the same way. I tried werebear, dragon and enforcer (2 to make 10 creatures total) in several builds of thresh. Werebear is a watered down goyf that also needs threshold to be any good so that was an automotic no. Fledgling dragon was a great win con when it hit but it almost never hits since its too slow and incredible hard to support at 4cc and RR in its cost (i needed a truckload of countermagic to back up its resolution). Mystic enforcer was ridiculous when it hit just like dragon but again was hard to support. Both dragon and enforcer are popular tech but i personally think that thresh doesnt need a big beater, just a threat in general with counter backup.

3. Many people are very attached to grip as well. I think it needs to be boarded as well.

4. No stifle or needle? I've found stifle the best sb i have some matchups. No fire/ice?! Are you crazy?! I find this the most versitile card in the deck and it's a big reason i splash red instead of white or black. Shackles is crap, I thought that people have realized that by now. Pyroclasm main deck? It's dead against 75% of the metagame. Please justify your inclusion of Pyroclasm if you can, and maybe shackles. Also tell me why fire/ice needs to go. Thanks.

Pyroclasm hits combo pieces off Breakfast, Ichorid zombie tokens, Goblins, and other small things. Pyroclasm maindeck is more of a metagame inclusion. Shackles, however, should seriously be considered for the maindeck. Shackles steals combo pieces off Breakfast, makes infinite blockers, bombs the mirror, and is just a better alternative than silly Burn cards doing nothing when you're Goyfless. It takes a Goyf to kill a Goyf if you run Burn.

Also, Fire/Ice doesn't really do anything. It's a worse cantrip, and it's a worse removal spell. I would rather they were dragon, as dragon is a must-answer card once it hits.

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Originally Posted by Kyachi

Also, Fire/Ice doesn't really do anything.

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Really? ....

How about removing:

Lackey
Warchief
Meddling Mage
Dark Confidant
Factory/Blinkmoth
DotV
Mother of Runes

That is a handful of relevant creatures. Not to mention you can do combat tricks with the Fire side and get tempo boost from upkeep tap out on your opponent's important resources with Ice.

1. Yes, your cantrips are good. But maybe you can try Predict instead of Portent. With CB, Top, Brainstorm and Ponder you'd have 14 cards that show you the top card of your library.

2. 8 creatures are enough imo. But with only such a few creatures you want additional threats in the SB for the mirror. Threads of Disloyalty would be a good choice.

3. Grip; main reason is Counterbalance, which you have to get rid off but won't hit with Naturalize

4. Needle: You want Needle against Goblins, Survival and Deed-Decks (4C LS, Rock)

>>>>>>>>>>>>> PLAY 4 DAZE (cut one Counterspell)

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Originally Posted by kabal

Really? ....

How about removing:

Lackey
Warchief
Meddling Mage
Dark Confidant
Factory/Blinkmoth
DotV
Mother of Runes

That is a handful of relevant creatures. Not to mention you can do combat tricks with the Fire side and get tempo boost from upkeep tap out on your opponent's important resources with Ice.

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When you can use Shackles to make blockers for Lackey, Warcheif, MM, Confidant, steal manlands, take DotV, and mommy.

Shackles is just better here....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kabal

Really? ....

How about removing:

Lackey
Warchief
Meddling Mage
Dark Confidant
Factory/Blinkmoth
DotV
Mother of Runes

That is a handful of relevant creatures. Not to mention you can do combat tricks with the Fire side and get tempo boost from upkeep tap out on your opponent's important resources with Ice.

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I don't know why you think that Meddling Mage matters. What are they going to name against you that matters? The one thing that I would worry about is Tarmogoyf, but since it's symmetrical, you don't have to worry about their either. Fire doesn't answer Lackey quickly, and Shock will kill all of those things too, for less mana, but you don't see people advocating that. Really, none of those things are that relevant. It sort of kills Factory, but not really, and it'll only kill Mom on the first turn out. The one reason for playing Fire is a cool combat trick, but that is too narrow to actually warrant inclusion. Dragon or Explosives should be in that slot.

Quote:

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The one thing that I would worry about is Tarmogoyf, but since it's symmetrical, you don't have to worry about their either.

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I think good players will name Goyf with MM only when it's in their advantage (for example to get board advantage or to prevent you from having it). MM naming Bolt can be annoying if you don't play any other removal/burn, cutting your option to burn the player and leaving you in a position where you might have to waste counters for the MMs they cast afterwards.

Fire on Confidant is actually decent in the UGb-Threshold match-up, leaving you with the choice to burn your opponent with your Bolts instead of wasting them on Confidant.

I think tapping a fattie is actually important in tempo-UGR to make your clock faster.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kabal

Really? ....

How about removing:

Lackey
Warchief
Meddling Mage
Dark Confidant
Factory/Blinkmoth
DotV
Mother of Runes

That is a handful of relevant creatures. Not to mention you can do combat tricks with the Fire side and get tempo boost from upkeep tap out on your opponent's important resources with Ice.

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You got it.

@ Anti American

Why is shackles better than fire/ice when its 4 more mana to use with no advantages? Plus it only hits a small portion of the metagame.

@ Kyachi

If you look at fire/ice as a split card and not one side of it, youll see how versitile it is. Also if you didnt read it properly its 2 dmg split, not just 2. This makes it even better than lightning bolt vs decks like goblins (granting you a 2 for 1 trade). Also its not a cantrip so how can you say its not a good cantrip. Ice is just what the deck needs vs goyf and big creatures that have already resolved. Try testing it.

@ Tao

I've tested predict and threads.
Predict is great when you can implement it well (ex: portent them, mill their best top 3 with predict, draw 2, then 1 on upkeep) giving you great card advantage. Some times its too limiting though and 12 1cc cantrips are a minimum. I dont have any slots for such a card unfortunately.
Threads is okay vs any goyf deck but plain sucks against any non goyf deck. At the cost of 3 its almost an insta counter anyway.
I've been running 4 daze from the beginning and its the worst top deck ever. That's why i went down to 3. Multiple dazing can seem awesome, but its a very harsh loss of tempo in pairs (or more). Counterspell is great, and it just takes anything out. Plus its just better than daze or even FoW after about turn 2-3.

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Originally Posted by galeng

@ Kyachi

If you look at fire/ice as a split card and not one side of it, youll see how versitile it is. Also if you didnt read it properly its 2 dmg split, not just 2. This makes it even better than lightning bolt vs decks like goblins (granting you a 2 for 1 trade). Also its not a cantrip so how can you say its not a good cantrip. Ice is just what the deck needs vs goyf and big creatures that have already resolved. Try testing it.

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Wow, thanks for stating the blatantly obvious. In the future, go ahead and assume that if I'm commenting on something, I've probably tested it once or twice. Goblins just isn't a big enough concern anymore for me to care if I can 2 for 1 a Lackey and something else (notably nothing worth killing in Goblins that has a 1 toughness other than Lackey by the way...) So really, I end up shooting the Lackey and the player more often than not, so I might as well play First Volley by that logic. If I thought that Goblins were a problem for this deck, I would start some Pyroclasms.
Also, it is a cantrip! It has a draw a card ability tacked on to a mediocre effect. Ice is not what this needs, delaying for one turn isn't teh tech you may think that it is. Threshold is a control deck, whatever else you may think of it, and you want permanent answers, not chaff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by galeng

@ Anti American

Why is shackles better than fire/ice when its 4 more mana to use with no advantages? Plus it only hits a small portion of the metagame.

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-It doesnt hit a small portion of the metagame.

-It's just a better card in the long run.

-Shackles may be 5 mana, but like I said, it's better in the long run.

-Dont think of Threshold as the deck with a short term plan; that way of thinking wont ever get Counterbalance in Threshold to work. You either play cards with a better long run or you go Tempo. Going Tempo is so implied on the odds of the opponent's deck and yours that your games arent going to be as consistent as the CB lists.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kyachi

Wow, thanks for stating the blatantly obvious. In the future, go ahead and assume that if I'm commenting on something, I've probably tested it once or twice. Goblins just isn't a big enough concern anymore for me to care if I can 2 for 1 a Lackey and something else (notably nothing worth killing in Goblins that has a 1 toughness other than Lackey by the way...) So really, I end up shooting the Lackey and the player more often than not, so I might as well play First Volley by that logic. If I thought that Goblins were a problem for this deck, I would start some Pyroclasms.
Also, it is a cantrip! It has a draw a card ability tacked on to a mediocre effect. Ice is not what this needs, delaying for one turn isn't teh tech you may think that it is. Threshold is a control deck, whatever else you may think of it, and you want permanent answers, not chaff.

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1. Not just good against just goblins. Any deck that runs creatures with toughness 2 or less.

2. Its great because it deals with any creature. <2 toughness = burn with fire, >2 toughness = tap with ice. It also has reach and a potential rishadan port effect with a card draw bonus.

@ Anti American

All youre saying here is: I'm right, your'e wrong.
Do you can any arguements for shackles over any other removal?
Mention key examples instead of just stating that its better.
Thanks much.

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Originally Posted by galeng

1. Not just good against just goblins. Any deck that runs creatures with toughness 2 or less.

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Which are not that many... You aren't understanding my argument. The ability to kill things is not a reason to run it, the ability to kill many things would be a reason to run it. As it is, it is too limited to adequately do anything. I would call Lightning Bolt a cut-able card right now due to the inability to kill Tarmogoyf, and if that's on the fence, the two damage spell for 1R is certainly out. It doesn't do enough to justify a MD slot. People see Volcanic Islands in a deck and they simply assume that Fire/Ice would be a good call, and it simply isn't the case here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by galeng

2. Its great because it deals with any creature. <2 toughness = burn with fire, >2 toughness = tap with ice. It also has reach and a potential rishadan port effect with a card draw bonus.

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No, it doesn't. Threshold games seldom need to squeeze through damage to win. Most of the games that I win, it's because I've stabilized with CB/Top and I'm going to win one way or the other, either now or ten turns from now. Tapping a guy and buying a turn isn't a good use of cards.

My current list is pretty solid. It needs a few tweaks, but it has been working smoothly.

4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Forest/Mountain

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Burning Tree Shaman

4 Force
3 Daze
2 Counterspell

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire//Ice
3 Pyroclasm

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict

SB
3 Counterbalance
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Needle
2 Explosives
1 Pyroclasm

Matchups:
Belcher - In three weeks, I beat out Belcher 2-0, 2-1 and 2-1. It's a fairly easy match unless I don't have Pyroclasm and a counter ready game 1. After that, Needle the Belcher and having 6 token killing effects really owns them. I've beaten out 14 tokens with 2 Geese and a Goyf before along with a few burn spells, but that took a long time.

Spring Tide - Played once. 2-1. Easy match...countered everything after High Tide resolved. One game I only had 2 counters so that was a loss.

Stax - In two weeks, I beat it 2-1 twice. Keeping that Chalice @ 1 off the table is tough, but necessary. Having a 3cc creature helps a lot too against Trinisphere and Chalice@1/2. You have to counter things that make you pay more. Game 2/3 I bring in Needles and Grips and sometimes Crypt. Needle on the fetch and wastelands and grips for tons. Crypt I put in to stop Crucible.

Thresh - Matchup from hell. It's mostly luck/draw based. If you run Spell Snare over Counterspell or something else, it helps, but Spell Snare sucks against too many decks and CS hits ANYTHING for one more. CB is crucial and Crypt pwns them bad obviously.

Replenish/Opal Deck - 2-1...counter Replenish and Opal and Moat. Crypt for Replenish and Rector.

The Rock - 1-2 and 0-2. Deed hurts my board and does next to nothing to them. Needle helps here, but Monger is too freakin big. Extripates on Force or my creatures is GG.

White Weenie - Either I just had terrible draws, or this is a bad match. I couldn't stop the shadow pro-red guy with a Jitte. Explosives came down too late and I cried a lot.

What do you guys think of my decklist? I don't use Top anymore because it gets Needle'd and I hate using Grips to nail that...and trying to get an Explosives on the table is not easy to do sometimes. So using my cantrips more effectively was my solution.

Ponder hasn't made me happy in a while, so I went back to SV. I kept having 1 card I liked and not wanting the other two with Ponder, but maybe I'll give it another chance.

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Originally Posted by chokin

Ponder hasn't made me happy in a while, so I went back to SV. I kept having 1 card I liked and not wanting the other two with Ponder, but maybe I'll give it another chance.

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WTF, WHY?! Ponder is clearly better than Serum Visions. That's a trivial fact no one can refuse since Ponder reveals you more cards and gives you the possibility to shuffle the crap away. Also the card you draw is not random then.

I also don't like that you are just playing 3 Dazes, run 4 of them. Legacy became faster. 4 Dazes are strong in the early- and mid-game, and that's where NQG always shines the most. Late-Game is still solid, but NQGr is a tempodeck anyways, so it should not come to an lategame.

I would still run Shackles over Pyroclasms since Goblins has gone back anyways and I still think Pyroclasm is still overrated against Goblins since you can win against Goblins even without it if you play tight.

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Originally Posted by Adan

WTF, WHY?! Ponder is clearly better than Serum Visions. That's a trivial fact no one can refuse since Ponder reveals you more cards and gives you the possibility to shuffle the crap away. Also the card you draw is not random then.

I also don't like that you are just playing 3 Dazes, run 4 of them. Legacy became faster. 4 Dazes are strong in the early- and mid-game, and that's where NQG always shines the most. Late-Game is still solid, but NQGr is a tempodeck anyways, so it should not come to an lategame.

I would still run Shackles over Pyroclasms since Goblins has gone back anyways and I still think Pyroclasm is still overrated against Goblins since you can win against Goblins even without it if you play tight.

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On Ponder. Like 90% of the time, there was ONE card I wanted and two that needed to go away. And almost every time that this happened, I had no shuffle effects. Plus, if you decide to use the shuffle then draw, you're getting a random with two unknowns after. With Visions, I had one unknown and two randoms that could be fixed. I think I'm going to use a 2/2 split of Visions and Ponder though.

For me, Daze has been great. I think that when I built the deck, I had 4, but I think I misplaced the last copy. I remember having 10 counters, 10 creatures, and 10 burn when I built it, but those numbers have changed slightly.

I'm getting Shackles soon, so that's an easy fix. Pyroclasm has won me lots of games, but Shackles will for sure help with my victory against my tougher matchups.

Basically, my deck is tuned for my meta. I think that I'm gonna fiddle with it. Burning Tree Shaman really shone at the last tourney I went to. I was playing against Mono Blue Control and he had a Back to Basics and a Shackles. I burn him down to 5, then cast a Bolt which he takes. I Fire him and he Forces it. I drop BTS next turn and he scoops. It also saved me against Domain (Overgrown Estate and Deed for 2 plus his City of Brass really did him in). So I'll be testing with Ponders again and with looking for my last Daze. And getting Shackles around my birthday (3 weeks! woo!)

Ponder is better than Serum Visions. Machinus went through every possible situation of what the top 3 cards of your library are (whether they are good or bad) and there are more situations where you want ponder. I'll try and dig up the post but you shouldn't be making card decisions based on what usually seems to happen but rather which card is superior in more situations.

Kronicler

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Originally Posted by chokin

On Ponder. Like 90% of the time, there was ONE card I wanted and two that needed to go away. And almost every time that this happened, I had no shuffle effects. Plus, if you decide to use the shuffle then draw, you're getting a random with two unknowns after. With Visions, I had one unknown and two randoms that could be fixed.

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That's an extremely stupid argument, sorry, but Ponder can work as a tutor for the final burnspell and so on. And then you are telling me Serum Visions finds actual solutions better than Portent? Ok, you are not saying so, but what advantages has Serum Visions got over Ponder? Right, none.

When you play Serum Visions, you draw one random card you probably don't need, and think: "Fuck, this could have been the "I-Win"-Card".

And you also have 7-8 Fetchlands, having a shuffle effect shouldn't be a problem. Combine Brainstorm and Ponder with Shuffle-Effects and they are insane. Ponder itself is a shuffle effect that pairs up well with rainstorm and has got a better synergy with Predict than Serum Visions has.