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Storm is a dificult matchup if played against an experienced player , cause they can slow down and use your counters to ToA for 20.I try to keep some pressure(mishra's , jace) hand that don't lose to duress, wastelock is very good and some disrupt at SB can help.Just hope they did not draw the ToA and try to counter their BW if you see they setting up big hand for mass disrupt + ToA.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrShine
Yeah, the Monastery was a last-minute add, during testing I often wanted a fifth manland but didn't want to cut a colored land for it, so I just added it as the 61th card. I didn't draw it except in two games however, one of them was the Zoo that I lost (he had a really fast start both games, my Deeds were too slow and I didn't reach threshold in time for Monastery to help). I'm not sure if it's going to stay.Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
The fourth Jace was awesome. The only time I was unhappy to see a Jace was when I drew a third copy against Storm Combo.
I've been tweaking a Ubg version of the deck, and I ended up here:
4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Innocent Blood
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Standstill
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Academy Ruins
2 Tolaria West
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
I noticed that Vengevines were a problem not on the first go-round, but on the recursion, so I added in some Tolaria Wests/Tormod's Crypt to help with that. Crypt is good in a lot of matchups, allowing me to break up loam recursion, shrink Knight of the Reliquary and Tarmogoyf, pull ahead in the mirror, and Tolaria West can find me Waste, EE, Crypt, and Factory, giving me a lot of options for not a huge cost. A few questions
1: Do I need more MD removal or spell pierce? I guess I would cut 1 counterspell and 1 pierce to fit them in, but space is tight as is.
2: Do I want a MD Volcanic Island to ramp EE to 4 counters?
3: What should my sideboard look like? Right now, I'm leaning towards 2 Extirpate, 2 Yixlid Jailer as my GY hate, 4 Engineered Plague for tribal, 3 Krosan Grip as a catch-all, and then 4 spare slots that could be anything from spell pierce to chalice of the void. Any suggestions?
I was wondering about what you guys thought about a maindeck Abyss. I used to run it in Train Wreck, and this plays very much like Train Wreck without counters. It was a house then, because once you stopped the initial onslaught, they lose one guy per turn for the rest of the game, and you never usually Deeding on 4+ anyway. Thoughts?
Also, has anyone found there's not enough draw? I don't mean Standstill, I mean Brainstorm/Top type stuff. It might be I'm so used to playing Rock with Top and Dreadstill, but I'm trying an extra 2 Brainstorm effects (Preordain or Ponder) and I'll tell you how it goes. So far it looks like this:
3 Jace
3 Deed
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords
2 Path
1 Abyss
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Preordain/Ponder
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
8 Fetches
4 Factory
How's our Team America match up? I've been having a lot of trouble vs. good pilots. For those who are unaware, it's the whole discard/land removal/counter package with bobs/tombstalkers as finishers.
@Matt, I think the matchups The Abyss is good against, The Abyss is just too slow. Against Thresh, TA, New Horizons, it would be a beating, but it is a 4 mana enchantment against decks that run massive land hate and counters. Porphyry Nods/Drop of Honey (ivanpei's tech here) is a more-or-less functional equivalent that comes down way earlier, and is much more useful because of the mana cost. It's a great card in all sorts of aggro matchups, forcing an over-extension or killing a dude+ Fog, which is still solid for 1 mana. For what it's worth, I've never tried Abyss due to the cost, and that may very well be why there hasn't been much (if any) discussion about it.
I definitely feel the need for extra card-selection. I prefer Top, but Preordain/Ponder could also be quite useful for digging for lands in the early game and only gets better in the late-game. Good idea.
@galeng: White would be pretty useful here. 1 mana removal that targets black dudes is pretty good against a deck with a low threat density and a Tempo stratagy. If you don't want to run white, MD 4 Innocent blood, and maybe a few Diabolic edicts in the SB could help. Also, Pithing Needle on Wasteland would definitely be of value. Loam as a 2-of in the MD/SB has been a great help for me in Tempo matchups.
But these decks (TempoThresh, TA, TempoFaeries) are really just bad matchups period. They were made strictly to beat slow control decks like us, and are damn good at it. It's just the food chain of Legacy really.
This deck absolutely folds to early Wasteland + some clock. Get Wasted twice, and your chances are very slim. Merfolk is nightmare. Pass a turn with Knight of Reliquary on battlefield and you are likely to be out of the game. Aggro Loam is almost an auto scoop preboard. Anything with Stifle/Wasteland is extremely hard. It doesn't help if they also pack black to rid you of our colored sources with Extirpate after S/B.
Basically, half of the metagame nowdays runs 'Strip Mines'. This is really bad. And no, Loam helps only to some extent, because you're still getting blown out by massive tempo loss. I've had games where I was mana flooded (a bunch of lands in hand), had Loam, but still lost because I couldn't get past 2-3 mana.
Tempo loss/gain doesn't mean anything without a *fast* clock/threat on the table. This is why Merfolk is much more popular than non-fish tempo decks like TT, TA, Faeries. Many games have I starred down a 3/4 Tarmogoyf or Nimble Mongoose from TT for 3-4 turns before stabilizing and winning. They have to get you to a certain point or they will surely lose after stabilizing. TA's main threat is hand-rape. Thoughtseize/Spell Pierce for Swords, Deed, Force, or other cheap answer is what gives them the time to put the beats on. But they have to back it up with an early Tombstalker or a fat (4/5) Goofy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinefol
All of these decks are bad matchups, but they are not un-winnable and your odds can be made much better by preparing for them in you MD and SB choices. Also, from my testing, my results with Loam have been largely successful against those decks for the reasons stated above. I'll take a hit or two from a Goofy if it means land-drops for the next 3 turns.
Imo, Top is pretty nutty in Landstill and much better than the blue, non-Brainstorm cantrips. If you have Top in play, it actually means you can play under Standstill vs Merfolk sometimes. I've been toying with the idea of 2 maindeck tops + 4 Counterbalance and 1 additional top in the SB. Most of the time you won't be able to beat good storm players with a Landstill deck unless you have some kind of hate permanent, so that might as well be CB. CB also beats a lot of other random decks, including burn, which I think is an otherwise crappy matchup (it's also a deck I think will be heavily played due to Survival/death of CB decks).Quote:
Also, has anyone found there's not enough draw? I don't mean Standstill, I mean Brainstorm/Top type stuff. It might be I'm so used to playing Rock with Top and Dreadstill, but I'm trying an extra 2 Brainstorm effects (Preordain or Ponder) and I'll tell you how it goes. So far it looks like this:
I played a few practice games tonight, and I really liked having the extra bit of draw. I used 1 Ponder 1 Predordain, just to see which I liked better. In some cases, I liked being able to sculpt future draws more like Brainstorm, whereas some I preferred Ponder. I might run 1 of each.
Obviously double Wasteland against most decks early on backed with a clock hurts. Unless you're playing all basics, double Wasteland sets you back two turns, I hear. That's also why we play 25 Lands, 2-3 Basics (at least, I am), and 6-8 pieces of 1-CMC removal. I mean, I'm not saying we're always going to be able to pull out, but let's face it, it's better than nothing.
RE: The Abyss. I know it's four mana, but I played it today against Goblins and it was good. I mean, obviously they can rape your face, but I was able to Swords first turn Lackey, Counterspell second turn Piledriver, drop 3rd turn Deed followed by 4th turn Abyss. Mind you, I don't expect this to happen all the time, but at the time it was pretty good. I can't remember if I tried Nodes way back when, but having it die when they have no creatures sucks. This is the time you want to be dealing with stuff. It makes them play 2+ creatures to have one live, so it plays right into the card advantage of Deed. I'm going to try it more obviously, but I'd say give it a shot. Even at a 4-drop, it's very good at protecting Jace and stalling out. I'm going to try it against Rock, as they only run 12 threats. Having Abyss online means they can't ride a single Confidant on the board forever.
-Matt
No it does not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinefol
If you're losing to Wasteland so easily, you're doing something wrong.
Actually, I think Merfolk is quite easy, just like Agroo Loam.
Just run some basics. I have 4, and Waste is quite never an issue.
Why did you counter a turn 2 Squire, with Deed in your hand?Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
If you think Merfolk is quite easy, perhaps your opponents are doing something wrong? Really, declining that this deck has problems with wastelands, cheap counters and very quick clock is a sign of ignorance.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
Countered it just for spite, as I remember. Not the best play in the world, I just hate Goblins that much.
I don't think that their clock is that quick when their facing a deck with 7 1cc removal, cheap counters and 4boardsweepers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinefol
If they're doing something wrong, I hope they keep doing it...
Hey! I'm a goblin player here!Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Sorry but I played many times against Merfolks with BUG and lost just once( mull to 4 game1 , win game 2 , and dead game 3 cause mull to 6 + 3 brainstorm did not found me a fetch/Usea).Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinefol
Goblins is a problem , cause they really have great land disrupt(port + wastes) and lackey which makes the diference.
It helps that a ton of folk players are pretty bad given that folk is the #1 recommended deck for legacy beginners, but it's generally an unfavorable match up I'd say.
@ Manadrain
I'm playing the standard 4c build. Seems that as soon as 3 (maybe 2 depending on my hand) mana disruption spells resolve, it becomes an uphill battle from there. The creatures aren't a problem. It's the 12 land removal effects that the deck runs (Team America)
I'd just like to note that one wasteland early should not be a problem for the deck ever. If it is, you're probably keeping super thin hands, casting brainstorm incorrectly, etc.
On TA: I know from experience that Spell Snare is huge in the Tempo matchup, and I've also had a success with Spell Pierce against them (either in the MD or the SB). I agree that if they draw a nut hand of 2 land, Stifle, Waste, Sinkhole, and a threat, our shit usually gets ruined at that point. Thankfully, there are a lot of 1 mana cards that can make the matchup easier, like the aforementioned counters, Needles, extra Paths in the board, Loam. Also, being as conservative as possible with your fetchs really helps, but is not always possible. It forces them to keep U up during their turn, which they would rather use to be casting Ponders/BS or threats. But like I said in my previous post, this is just a shitty matchup to begin with.
Every deck has bad matchups, this happens to be ours.
On Fish: If you don't take proper SB precautions, Fish will blow you out with a decent hand or with Standstills. I win G1 maybe 35-40% of the time, but end up siding in like 6-8 cards and that turns the matchup in our favor. PKs, extra Paths, Engineered Plague (not that effective but still helpful), Spell Snare (for Standstill and certain fish), and EE all help push the favor to us. Completely winnable, but pack hate. It's probably the most common matchup you will play in even a "kinda" developed metagame, due to the cost, ease of play (auto-pilot), and the fact that it beats U most of the time (>50% of the format), so packing plenty of hate is a good investment.
@Mana Drain
Not sure if you were here when we talked about it, but have you tried Nodes/the Abyss?
Edit: Ah, I see you did discuss it, but have you actually tried it?
-Matt
I've tried Nodes/Drop of Honey, and was somewhat impressed by it's usefulness. It's helpful in fast aggro matchups like Tribal and Zoo, and is a possible out to a resolved Progenitus (granted you can survive a swing from him). I also found some use in Tempo matchups where being 1 mana was huge (also being able to hit Mongoose is pretty useful). Basically, it's either 1) a delayed action removal spell + Fog or 2) a continuous removal engine that forces the other guy to overextend into a Deed sweep. Either outcome is profitable, but what I don't like is that it generally sucks in the lategame when you're at a lower life total and taking a turn to remove something just doesn't cut the mustard.
Whether something like Perish or additional Paths/Demise/Edicts would be better I don't fully know. It definitely has it's merits if drawn early enough.
On The Abyss, my position still stands: In the matchups where you want it, it's too little, too late (Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo) and in the matchups where you can consistently live to cast it, it's relevance is diminished (or it's easily removed, like against Rock or Bant). I'm not saying it's a bad card, just too slow to have a significant impact on the gamestate in the matchups where you really need the effect. Also, it doesn't help that it's cost (both mana and $$$) is similar to Jace, and the power-level between the two should be obvious...
One final note, the fact that it can't hit untargetable creatures (Prog, Mongoose, reanimator creatures) is definitely lame for a 4 mana removal card. Humility, Moat, or WoG seem just more consistent and reliable.
I recently picked this deck up... Been playing various blue decks for a while but never Jacestill.
My metagame is full of Wastelands and Survivals so with a proper manabase this seems like a good choice.
With all the manadenial and my unhealthy urge for consitency I choose to play 4 basics over the usual splash or wastelands. And without wasteland I don't think Loam is any good... and the only reason I want waste is to kill manlands, but let's see how this manage.
I included 2 tops to make up for the lack of spotremoval and stuff to do under standstill.
I wonder if Pierce is really worth it...? conditional taxing counters seems out of place in this deck.
Im not sure about tormod's crypt vs relic vs spellbomb. With top and brainstorm I prefer tormod's crypt against dredge but relic otherwise.
ENCHANTMENTS (8)
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
SORCERIES (4)
4 Innocent Blood
INSTANTS (16)
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
PLANESWALKERS (4)
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
ARTIFACTS (4)
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
LANDS (24)
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
SIDEBOARD
3 Extirpate
3 Hydroblast
2 Perish
2 Duress
2 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Krosan Grip