All B/R update speculation.

Am I the only one that "Feels" something is going to change? I had this same feeling last year about Modern, I have it now about Legacy. I do not normally clock watch the announcements but I just feel like something really might happen this time. Makes me uneasy.

Edit:
Death, you do not execute innocent parties to spare guilty ones. If Brainstorm if found to be at fault, it's Brainstorm that has to go, not Ponder as a proxy.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Am I the only one that "Feels" something is going to change? I had this same feeling last year about Modern, I have it now about Legacy. I do not normally clock watch the announcements but I just feel like something really might happen this time. Makes me uneasy.

Edit:
Death, you do not execute innocent parties to spare guilty ones. If Brainstorm if found to be at fault, it's Brainstorm that has to go, not Ponder as a proxy.

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I'm guessing Brainstorm banned and Survival of the Fittest returns with a warning that it's on the watch list.

It's possible that any of Brainstorm, Ponder, Delver of Secrets or Treasure Cruise could be banned.

I would love to see some unbannings. Question is, the stuff that could be unbanned, is it good enough to shake the format up? Maybe not.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Regardless of why blast it's being played main deck, the point is that the top decks, all five of them right now, share so many similar cards that every game turns out to be the same. The format is stale. Blast answers allall of those things yes, but what card ties it all together and makes all of these cards desirable to be played?

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So we should ban Brainstorm because all the decks with separate poor-color identity, overly-efficient threats happen to play Brainstorm for stability... instead of banning the poorly designed threats? Sure, why not ban fetchalands while we're at it, most of the other "ban brainstorm" arguments like this apply to fetches too, as I noted earlier in the thread.

The only card that could be unbanned and make an impact without completely dominating is survival. Everything else is either too good, or not his enough to really change anything

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

I'm guessing Brainstorm banned and Survival of the Fittest returns with a warning that it's on the watch list.

It's possible that any of Brainstorm, Ponder, Delver of Secrets or Treasure Cruise could be banned.

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My money is on TC being banned. Survival is possible, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

When is the B&R announcement? January 19th?

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

So we should ban Brainstorm because all the decks with separate poor-color identity, overly-efficient threats happen to play Brainstorm for stability... instead of banning the poorly designed threats? Sure, why not ban fetchalands while we're at it, most of the other "ban brainstorm" arguments like this apply to fetches too, as I noted earlier in the thread.

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If they ban something they're going to ban the card that appears alongside ALL of those threats, not the threats themselves.

Ultimately if they're worried about pissing people off they're better off banning Brainstorm than banning all the broken cards that it finds. People may not like Brainstorm gone but they're going to be howling at the moon if Delver of Secrets AND Show and Tell AND True-Name Nemesis AND Jace, the Mind Sculptor AND Lion's Eye Diamond all go instead.

Think about it.

The interesting question is what they do with Force of Will.

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Originally Posted by btm10

I get your point, but having played a bumch or URx decks recently to try and find the one I like best, the blasts are mostly there to fight over Treasure Cruise and to deal with particular problems like TNN and Counterbalance. It's not "everyone's playing blue so I'll maindeck REBs", it's "games come down to who gets to Cruise more, and this is a one-mana hard counter for Cruise" coupled with "my deck of 1 CMC spells gets wrecked by Counterbalance". This is (part of) why we're even seeing SB Hydroblasts in people's boards now.

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And I have never claimed otherwise, so I'm happy to agree with you :)
But as Megadeus stated, lots of decks are starting to share a large pool of cards. I'm not a fan of a shell of cards that is just great on its own, and can be fitted into Control like Miracles (monastery mentor is only going to enhance blue shell controll), tempo, combo (ascendency, Omniscience, ...)

That's why I really like cards like Green sun's zenith, it's also superpowerful but also limits you (to playing green creatures). There is only one GSZ-deck in the DTB, and it sure stands out between its four blue-shell brethren.

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Originally Posted by Barook

My money is on TC being banned. Survival is possible, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

When is the B&R announcement? January 19th?

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It's possible that TC gets banned but then that just brings back RUG Tempo as the DTB, with Miracles, BUG Delver, Stoneblade and Elves on it's heels. That's the meta from August and it's still close to a 70% Brainstorm meta.

I think WotC thought that TC was going to go into every blue shell list and it would be an easy ban this time around. Instead it has slotted into every Delver list and is not so easy to define.

I guess I'd put the odds like this right now:

Brainstorm - 80%
Delver of Secrets - 50%
Treasure Cruise - 50%
Ponder - 20%
Force of Will - ?

50% on the Survival unbanning and 50% on Vengevine being banned if Survival comes off the list.

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Originally Posted by btm10

This is (part of) why we're even seeing SB Hydroblasts in people's boards now.

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when inbreeds inbreed ... beb's to beb your rebs that are rebbing my required blue spells.

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Originally Posted by Barook

When is the B&R announcement? January 19th?

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That is correct. Monday, 12:00 AM PST.

Treasure Cruise and Ponder banned. I decline to speculate on unbannings. But it's not Earthcraft for sure :)

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Originally Posted by death

Why did I create another B&R thread? Because I'm afraid this suggestion will be lost in the discussions. I have been Brainstorming since Dream Halls and Time Spiral were Standard-legal. Brainstorm wasn't as good then as it is right now because of the lack of shuffle effects, there weren't any fetchlands and Brainstorm is basically the only filter spell available.

There has been much talk going on since 2011, during the Snapcaster Mage and Mental Misstep era, that blue decks are dominating the format. Mental Misstep got axed, but B&R discussions continued and Brainstorm became the subject of debates. Here's my take on the timeline and how the format gradually deteriorated over time into what we currently see in the DTB section.

2007 - Ponder was printed
2009 - Zendikar fetch lands
2011 - Preordain got printed
2014 - Treasure Cruise printed

WotC admitted mistakes were made: Jace TMS (in standard), Vengevine, Necrotic Ooze, Mental Misstep caused imbalances and corrective actions were taken. Right now, Brainstorm is not the sole culprit. It's the newer cards that breaks it in a sense. We cannot just get rid of Brainstorm because the card puts the format in a balance. Others have already stated that it is a pillar in legacy: What should "define" the Legacy format? by H.

Without Brainstorm, the format loses diversity as numerous decks will turn into a giant pile of random old/new-bordered cards. Legacy becomes less appealing overall and less interactive since Force of Will also needs this card in order to keep things in check.

Brainstorm > Preordain > Serum Visions is fine, win-win scenario. As I have argued, Ponder has a shuffle + draw effect which makes it stronger than Brainstorm on occasions.

My proposal: Ban Ponder and Treasure Cruise.


Edit:
So, the thread was deleted by my best bud Jander78 and the contents merged into this one. I was hoping to find out how the community would react to the proposed changes.

I do not think of Brainstorm as a sacred cow, rather as the kill switch to many legacy archetypes.

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I hope they do nothing. And if they do, they unban someting to shake things up. i rather see a powerful card unbanned and then banned 6months later.
A ban of Brainstorm in legacy would be the nail for me.

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Originally Posted by Madsk

I hope they do nothing. And if they do, they unban someting to shake things up. i rather see a powerful card unbanned and then banned 6months later.
A ban of Brainstorm in legacy would be the nail for me.

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Agreed, but i do hope they ban Treasure Cruise. The card is just stupid.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

As a fan of Brainstorm (ie, wanting to keep it) I want to say your post is stupid.

It just makes zero level of sense to do what you are suggesting. If it comes to ahead that the card is really the problem, you don't give it a free pass, you fix the problem. Look at it this way, if I am constantly fighting with my brothers and causing issues in the home, it should not be my bothers that are asked to move out, it should be me as the cause of the problems.

You don't execute innocent party's to save guilty ones.

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A Ponder ban makes no sense in a vacuum. It is the most easily replaceable spell in the blue shell and Preordain would just take it's place in the shell.

If you're going to ban Ponder as the answer then you also need to ban Preordain at the same time. It's possible you need to ban Serum Visions as well. You probably need to ban all blue 1cc sorcery speed cantrips that let you dig 3 deep in your library and get a card in the same turn. That would accomplish a significant weakening of the shell.

Of course then you have the problem that arises when you're executing the mentally-deficient fall guy instead of the smart killer: the kills will just keep happening.

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

There are five decks in DTB section... :rolleyes:

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A deck doesn't have to be "DTB" to be viable.

Brainstorm is better than Treasure Cruise by miles. It doubles its usage. I respect those of you who are at least saying, I like the card Brainstorm, it's absurd but I don't want them to ban it because I like playing with it. The ones babbling about pillars, and banning Serum Visions need a detox.

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Originally Posted by testing32

There is a reason that painter isn't winning.

Lets look at our most played cards for December.

http://tcdecks.net/mostplayedcards.p...s=12&anio=2014

TC is 12th, Delver is 14th. They are really oppressive. Pyroblast shows up before a single black or green card.

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It isn't winning because not enough people are playing it.

#BanFetchlands2015

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Originally Posted by AznSeal

It isn't winning because not enough people are playing it.

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Ding! $200 Grey Ogre x 4.