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Goblins vs Elves in today's versus video
Tom had some interesting lines and some unfortunate draws but overall fun to watch
I still disagree with him wanting to play less than 4 caverns, which he mentions at the end
I'm going to a small legacy event tomorrow, usually there is a 20-25 people attendance ..... the last time i played goblins was like two years ago because legacy almost died in my area and i also tried other decks the very few times i played. But goblins is OF COURSE still my favorite deck so i want to ask you guys for some advices.
I suspect that there will be a lot of eldrazi (i know that 2 people will play it, and there will be more i guess), and i can't decide whether to play a "classic list" with a black splash for cabal therapy and earwig squad, or to try to edge against eldrazi with a couple ancient tombs/chrome moxens and some moon effects maideck. I would be inclined to try the second options, but i'm afraid that tombs/moxens could not be that good, especially if i have to cut ports for them, and i'm not sure if moon effects are so crippling if they don't come down consistently on turn 1/2. Also is moon better than magus ? any advice will be appreciated, and of course i will write a small report after the event.
Moon is good versus them, but I wouldn't go overboard with Ancient Tombs. Many of their creatures require colorless mana and will be uncastable under a Blood Moon. You should be able to beat them even if they stick a threat under it, although Thought-Knot Seer is a concern.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoCop 90
They don't have much removal, so I could see cards like Krenko being good against them. They sometimes have Jitte and Lodestone Golem, so Tin-Street Scrapper is propably still decent. Pithing Needle seems pretty good as even if they don't have Jitte you can name Endbringer or Ratchet Bomb, both of which I imagine are quite good against us as well.
Good luck tomorrow!
@LeoCop: I agree on nit going overboard to fight the MU. Krenko is our best weapon, and once is active should win us the game.
If you're looking at Moons in a classic list, from my experience running 1 Mox and 1 Tomb is quite good. They're both cards you don't want to draw multiples, but are good togheter, helping you lock the game pretty quickly if drawn.
Then again, I don't see it as a unfavourable mu as of now.
So I missed the Legacy as I am currently on a trip to Japan. Good thing for me, TokyoMTG had their monthly Win-a-dual event on sunday. It was 6 rounds, and Managed to 4-2 for 14th place out of what I think was about 50. My phone isn't letting me login to planeswalkerpoints to check that number right now. This was only my second event in Japan, I went 2-1 in their weekly legacy event on tuesday with the same 75. What makes this intresting is that I speak basicly no Japanese. Fortunatley, most legacy players tend to know their cards well, and for the most part things have gone incredibly smoothly. The meta here is pretty intresting, people seem more willing to try out intresting card choices in their decks than in the US. Also Death & Taxes seems to be nonexsistent.
My list:
3 Warping Wail
1 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Tarfire
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
1 Earwig Squad
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Badlands
3 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 AEther Vial
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
4 Goblin Matron
SB: 1 Tuktuk Scrapper
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 Kolaghan's Command
SB: 1 Rakdos Charm
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 Cabal Therapy
Round 1
2-0 Omnitell
SInce the banning of Dig, i know lots of people have been trying out different ways to keep the Omnitell engine working. This guy had settled on a gifts unviven package, splashing UW for Unburial Rites and Lim-Dul's vault (those, Noxious revival, and Griselbrand were the only nonblue cards i assume it was still mostly mono blue). It was pretty cool. Game 1 is super close. My t1 lackey hits, but I only have medium pressure. My Rishadan ports force him to use his Gifts Ungiven at his upkeep, which was kind of awkward for him. His first gifts gets a his first Gifts got Show and Tell, Noxious Revival, Snapcaster, and Griselbrand. I let him have Snapcaster and Griselbrand. On my turn, my attack Brings him down to 8. He goes to 6 off ancient tomb to cast Show and Tell and turning off Griselbrand. I try to Warping Wail, and he casts Force of will pitching a draw spell going to 5. I put in Stingscourger hoping he put in a fatty, but it was Omniscience. I assume i am dead, but then he proceds to cast several draw spells and blank hard. A second gifts ungiven for Ponder, Preordain, Brainstorm, and Lim-Dul's Vault, I give him Vault and Brainstorm. He brings himself down to low enough with vault that i tarfire him in response to his following brainstorm, and somehow he has nothing. Defininly got pretty lucky that game.
Game 2 a turn 1 lackey hit, i Wastelanded his turn 1 Underground Sea, and Rishadan Port got there. Port did so much work today.
SB-
+4 Cabal Therapy
-1 Goblin Ringleader
-1 Goblin Sharpshooter
-1 Tuktuk Scrapper
-1 Kolaghan's Command
Round 2
2-1 UR Painter
Game 1 I lost on his turn 4 (my turn 3). I had a vial on 2 and cast matron, getting Piledriver without thinking so i could attack for 8 next turn. I think I should have gotten Stingscourger to bounce his Painter's Servant to break up his combo. I assumed with 2 artifact lands out he couldnt play grindstone and activate it thru port, but i forgot he had one in his graveyard+Goblin Welder, and he played an Ancient Tomb for his turn. I died. Game 2 I won easily. I had a decent clock, and Kolaghan's Command can be a complete blowout vs this deck. Warping Wail also exiled a Painter's Servant. Game 3 was super close. I bounce his painters servant to gain a turn, next turn he replays it. I am forced to attack with all my 1/1 creatures and try to make him not block with his 1/3 by representing tarfire. It worked, ports stop him from activating his grindstone, but he deploys a Goblin Welder to block which messes up my exact lethal math. Untap, draw a Gempalm Incenerator, attack him to 1. Incinerator stops his combo on his turn and I win.
This match also involved a pretty funny moment in which I needed oracle text on a card (I believe it was Transmute Artifact) but neither my opponent or any of the judges spoke english. The hilarious part was his Transmute artifact was in english to begin with.
SB-
+1 Tuktuk Scrapper
+1 Rakdos Charm
+1 Kolaghan's Command
-1 Goblin Sharpshooter
-1 Goblin Ringleader
-1 Earwig Squad
Round 3
1-2 Storm
My opponent this round was Kai Sawatari, who works at the shop and who t8 several legacy Grand Prix with storm last year. So I knew what I was getting into. Game 1 I die on his turn 3. Game 2 I win because warping wail, Goblin Lackey, and Cabal Therapy are good. I think I played this game poorly and didnt deserve to win it, but I was lucky. Game 3 I mulliganed to a lackluster hand and he killed me again (on turn 3? might have been 4).
SB-
+3 Relic
+4 Cabal therapy
-3 Ringleader
-1 Kolaghan's Command
-1 stingscourger
-1 scrapper
-1 incenerator
Round 4
0-2 Infect
Not really much to say here. Both games i had lethal next turn, but his disruption stopped my removal and berserk is good. Game two he killed me thru a something like 6 points of toughness on blocking. Wrecked. Berserk is really good. The highlight of this match was afterwards, we played some casual games against his UR Delver deck. My opponent, who spoke very little English, played a Grim Lavamancer against my field of 2/2s, points to it and says "a motherfucker". It was fantastic.
SB-
+3 Pyrokinesis
+1 Kolaghan's Command
-1 Tuktuk Scrapper
-1 Earwig Squad
-2 Goblin Ringleader
Round 5
2-1 Deathblade
Game 1 was really grindy. He plays t2 Stoneforge for Batterskull, which I Warping Wail. we grind for awhile, lingering souls tokens vs Mogg War-Marshall tokens and a Ringleader. He eventualy has a hardcast Batterskull, a Tasigur, and like a million souls lingering around vs me with 3 Lackey, 3 Warcheif, and a Mogg War-Marshall + token. He cant equip Batterskull to a spirit as he saw a Tarfire off an earlier Ringleader, but eventualy the lifegain off the Batterskull which I kept chumping + Spirit Beats got there. Game 2 I Wastelanded him like twice times and had a two Ports. I didnt have much going on but he couldnt do anything about it. My early Vials were joined by a third later, and when you topdeck Matron with vials on 3, 3, and 4 good things tend to happen. And they did. Game 3 he mulliganed to 5, kept the scry on top. my hand was abit slow, and he played True-Name Nemesis on turn 3 which was annoying, but that was all he did and I Pretty easily overwhelmed him with Krenko,.
game 1 exled sf with ww, lingering souls got there with tasigur. lost. g2 3 vials, wasteland is good topdeck matron for shitton of damage, g3 he mull to 5, almost got me with tnn alone, still wrecked
SB-
+1 K command
-1 EWS
Round 6-
2-1 Burn
My opponents deck had some weird choices, including maindeck Relic of Progenitus, Burst Lightning and Fiery Confluence (which it turns out is an ok way to wipe a goblins board in a pinch). Game 1 was super close, math is hard. With me at 6, he played a Eidolon of the Great Revel with a Sulfuric Vortex on the field, and I played Warping Wail in response to make a 1/1. I untap, do more math, and decide I am dead to fireblast regardless, vial in Warcheif, cast Mogg War-Marshall, go to 4, attack him to two, and pass. On the upkeep his 1 card in hand is a Burst Lightning, which he kicks in response to Vortex. Oh well. Game two I have vial, he played a turn 1 Goblin Guide. He then deals me some damage and I get to put in a lackey. He Searing blazes my lackey, and I cycle Gempalm Incinerator in response. Explaining that Goblin Guide is a goblin and so this deals 2 damage is intresting when your opponent only speaks Japanese. From there the rest of the match is pretty straightforward. The only remaining thing of note is that I later used Warping Wail to Counter a sorcery (twice) and to exile a Monaestary Swiftspear, which I believe is the first time that I was able to use all three modes in one match.
SB-
+1 K command
-1 EWS
Overall I was pretty happy with the event, aside from a few points I think I played pretty well. Everybody seemed to be excited that goblins was doing well, and I was pretty happy with my decklist. The only Problems I have with it were Rakdos Charm and Grafdiggers Cages out of the board, which are mostly due to me being tired of losing to reanimator in my local meta. Now that my loca meta is on the othe side of the world, I am going to try some other cards in the sideboard while here. Next week I may try -2 Grafdigger's Cage, +1 Goblin Piledriver +1 Umezawa's Jitte. 4-2 got me to 14th place. I think Miracles won, with Kai on Storm in second. Playing in Japan is fun. People do whatever they want when it comes to card choices here. I will be playing more weeklies while here, and playing in 1 more big monthly before I leave.
Thanks for the report Matt
Two questions:
You mention earwig squad a few times, but I don't see it in your deck list. Am I blind?
You put your burn opponent to 2 in game 1, how was he able to kill you with burst lightning when he had an eidolon in play? Or did he trade eidolon with your warchief?
Oops, I did the list from memory and it seems I messed it up. I will fix it. EWS was a 1 of, with only 2 tarfire.Quote:
Originally Posted by goblinpiledriver
Yea, traded with warcheif in combat.Quote:
Originally Posted by goblinpiledriver
Neat list, thanks for the report!Quote:
Originally Posted by MattPruner
I noticed you kept Tarfire in the MD after SB against the combo decks. What is the reasoning behind this? I know it can be useful to finsih them off, but there are other cards in your list that I'd rather have against them (Ringleader & Kolaghan's Command vs Omnitell, Grafdigger's Cage vs Storm (unless they were on TES maybe?).
I have recently been trying a new approach to how I boarded. Up until recently I had taken tarfire out. Recently, however, I have been experimenting with sideboarding less. I definitely used to go... overboard (ba dumb tiss) and diluted my main strategy too much. So against combo I have been bringing in less hate than before, and trying to apply more pressure to back up the less hate. To apply the pressure is find myself cutting more expensive cards like ringleader or slower grindier things like k command. The tarfire just work better with that plan I think, and so far the plan has been working quite well.
As for grafdiggers cage vs storm, I really do think think it's all that good. I'm already bringing in 7 cards, which is already a lot, and cage is pretty easy for a good storm pilot to get around most of the time. That deck is damn resilient. I've acctualy just an hour or two ago taken the cages out of my deck and put them in my box of extra options, replaced them with a piledriver to better support the heavy pressure plan (I think it absolutely our best card in combo matchups where our opponent to is barely on the board and just sculpting/disrupting till they go off, it's just so bad in many other matchups) and an umezawa's jitte. Cage is great sometimes, but at least for me I found as a kind of mediocre card I could bring as extra, softer, hate at the cost of weakening my overall strategy. I will miss those occasional T1 wins over managers dredge guys tho...
Here's the report i promised.
Creatures:
-4 lackey
-4 matron
-4 ringleader
-3 war marshal
-3 warchief
-2 piledriver
-2 gempalm
-1 chieftain
-1 stingscourger
-1 krenko
-1 tuktuk
-1 siege-gang
-1 earwig squad
Artifacts:
-4 aether vial
Instant/sorcery:
- 3 cabal therapy
- 1 tarfire
- 1 warren weirding
Lands:
-4 waste
-4 cavern
-3 ports
-1 pendelhaven
-6 fetches
-3 mountain
-2 badlands
Sideboard:
- 2 pyrokinesis
- 2 thougthseize
- 2 blood moon
- 2 thorn of amethyst
- 2 relic of progenitus
- 1 pithing needle
- 1 surgical extraction
- 1 krenko
- 1 earwig squad
- 1 goblin sharpshooter
Round 1 Omnitell
Game 1 i lose the die roll and i stare at my turn 3 kill hand with lackey, piledriver, siege-gang and lands. He leads with island ponder and i hope he's miracles, but on his second turn he preordains so i know i'm in trouble. In fact he enters the infinite on turn 3 one turn before dying to my goblins.
Game 2 we both mull to 5 and i wreck him with cabal therapy.
Game 3 I still have the turn 3 win hand (pretty lucky), but no disruption. I keep and this time he wins on turn 2 .
Round 2 against Belcher
Game 1 he doesn't do anything for a couple turns than kills me with belcher. Game 2 i mull to 4, never find hate cards (or black mana when i have hate cards), and immediately die to belcher again.
Round 3 against Miracles.
I win 2-0, game 2 was particularly fun because on turn 3 he taps out for mentor, and on my turn i'm able to incinerate it and cast thoughtseize discarding another mentor. Then i proceed t cast two earwig squad leaving him with only one containment priest left as "win condition". He manages to draw the priest and i kill her with a second incinerator. He laughs a lot when he terminuses my board twice but knows he can't possibly win in any way.
Round 4 against Jund
I win game 1 and game 3, keeping both times a hand with no colored mana but vial, port, wasteland on the play. I get a bit lucky because once he doesn't have deathrite, and the other time he has him but i immediately draw fetch and kill him. Anyway i think our best bet against jund is to manascrew them relying on vial (i fondly remember max tietze winning a scg open beatng two consecutive jund players in the top 8, and vial was an all star in those games) .
Round 5 against Colorless Eldrazi.
Game 1 I am able to stabilize with mogg war marshal and slowly outgrind him while he doesn't have too much action.
Game 2 He steamrolls me.
Game 3 I keep this hand: badlands, thoughtseize, lackey, krenko, matron, pyrokinesis, vial. Basically my plan is to lead with lackey, pyrokinesis whatever blocker he produce, slam krenko and win from there. Unfortunately his turn on play is to warping wail my lackey, i never draw other lands and lose.
So in the end i had a 2-3 record, but winning my last game against eldrazi would have let me top 8 because i have the best tiebreakers (my omnitell and belcher opponents both top 8ed, belcher even won the event beating miracles shardless bug and merfolk, i don't know how he did and everyone was quite frustrated by this XD ). I'm quite satisfied with the deck, the main problem is that several times i had cabal therapy in my opener and no black mana to cast it. This thing cost me games against combo decks so i probably need to up the black sources at the expense of ports/pendelhaven... but at that point, i don't even know if playing therapy is worth it.
I also played some fun games against a friend who had colorless eldrazi, and, while the results were even, i'm pretty scared by that deck. It seems to me that their "nut hands" happen very frequently (basically they just need to draw thought-knot seers and reality smashers, because almost every land they have produces two mana), while our nut hand against them needs vial or lackey and land destruction and something good to cheat in, and this may not be enough on the draw. I could easily be wrong but the matchup does seem slightly in their favor in my eyes.
Someone mentioned in the Death & Taxes thread that Riders of Gavony might be a good card card to combat Eldrazi. I don't expect it to become stock, but it definitely has utility against us as well, and I certainly don't want to be caught off guard.
Does riders of gavony stop tarfire?
Edit: never mind, I'm stupid. I'm so tired today :/
Gempalm though? It's a creature card but it's not a creature permanent when you use its ability
Protection from Goblins definitely does not protect from Gempalm cycling.
Are you sure? I'm pretty sure that because it's Gempalm's ability, pro-goblins does mean pro Gempalm.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
The source of the ability is a Goblin; protection would stop it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevestamopz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatherer Rulings
I stand corrected! Sometimes you just need to read all the errata on a card to see what happens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard
Hi! I gave Warping Wail a shot today, just to try it out. I played four copies maindeck because I wanted to get as much testing with them in as possible.
I went 2-2.
The Warping Wails were okay, but felt kinda mediocre.
They were great against Infect as additional removal (also pretty good against Necropede when you have Lacke in play).
On the other hand, the other MUs I played were Nic Fit, Aluren, and BUG Control, so it doesn't seem entirely fair to dismiss Warping Wail just yet.
Rishadan Port felt okay, but not impressive. There were a few games where it helped, but also a hand where I had to mulligan because of it.
I made a misplay versus Nic Fit when I tapped a Wasteland instead of a Mountain to cast Krenko. I knew I wanted to keep up Warping Wail, but didn't count the additional basic lands I would get of his Veteran Explorer, meaning I couldn't also port. My opponent therapied my Warping Wail and Deluged my board, using all his mana. Tapping correctly might very well have been good enough to win G2, to at least give me a shot to win the match in the third game.
Playing against Aluren is hilarious, since we too are so good at taking advantage of its namesake card. In G3 my opponent went of with the Imperial Recruiter chain, and in response to the Dream Stalker I played a Sharpshooter to sweep his board. He played a Minister of Pain in response to Sharpshooter tapping, but it didn't work out as well as he had hoped, as Sharpshooter untapped from the exploit ability...
I'll propably give Warping Wail another try sometime soon, but for now I'll stay away from it.
I'm pretty happy with the list I was on the week before, but I still have a lot of things that I need to try out, and then there's still some tweaking to do.
Thoughts and feedback are appreciated as always.
Peace.
So what do you think is the correct number of black sources to support 3 maindeck cabal therapy ?
As i said, with 8 sources i had several opening hands with cabal therapy but without the mana to cast it; on the other hand, gobolord also played 8 sources in the last event he wrote about, and he didn't seem to have any problem.
The thing is, i think cabal therapy is one of the best cards we can use against combo decks, against which we usually need to mull aggresively into hate cards; but if we need to mull also because we have our hate card but not the mana to cast it, that is too much, and it is better to just play red or colorless options.
Next time i play therapy i will for sure have 9 sources, the difference is minimal but it could be important.... unfortunately i will have to acquire another badlands ....
There's a great article on number of colored sources and turns you can expect to have access to that color from Frank Karsten.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoCop 90
Article
The high number of non-Caverns, black sources required for a consistent early Therapy has kept me off it as a sideboard plan. It really deserves a dedicated mana base, IMO.
Then again, take this with a grain of salt as I haven't tried it.
Ha! Very interesting article. I discussed this topic (manabase that supports Cabal Therapy/warping wail) with ScatmanX, Sandro95 and another long-term Goblinsplayer recently (like 3 weeks ago), and I also ended up writing a program that simulates the Desired Situations. The thing is , that the resulting %s are hard to Interpret if you dont have any comparison. I.e. you wouldn't know what your Desired probability is until you tested the Configuration and get an idea of what it actually means jn practice. For this article this means that you actually don't know what it means to have a 90% Chance of casting Thoughtseize on T1. 80% might be just right for you, or maybe even 50%. (Considering alternative plays that your decks offers)
There is a lot of theory behind it, but if someone is interested in reading about this approach specifocally taulored towards our deck, then I would be happy to summarize the results here and share the code (it's super easy to read and manipulate for your purposes.)