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I think you want to include 2x Artifact/Enchantment hate (wear//tear, Council's Judgement etc) in your "stock" sideboard approach.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
That leaves, basically, 2 flex slots which are usually some number of mentor (if not in the main) as well as Izzet Staticaster.
I personally think Priest is superior to any other hate versus reanimater/SnT. I think you want Surgicals over RiP also, due to Snapcaster being incredible.
SCG added an extra staticaster to my SB, otherwise it was correct.
Priests are also decent against decks running GSZ, (elves, maverick), and are sometimes just a flash bear that you can apply pressure with.
RIP has some additional value against goyf/mongoose/drs/lands, and isn't terrible against storm.
This might derail the Miracles discussion a little bit, but the meta has been shifting.Quote:
Originally Posted by waz
I used to think Priest is great against Elves, until Julian went on all the social media promoting Chaos Elves. I mean, he might not be the inventor of it, but he's advocating for all the elf players to switch out Natural Order. Ok, so Priest can still turn off GSZ into Reclamation Sage play (to kill CB for obvious reasons), in short, I'm not sure. As long as Jessup is still doing the traditional Elves, as seen in Baltimore, I guess it's better to be safe.
Ever since the introduction of Eldrazi, I just don't see RUG Delver anymore. Like..., I go to all these LGS for small Legacy events, I see zero Mongoose, there used to be at least 1 or 2 of them in any given events. Look at Baltimore, zero in the top 32.
Furthermore, I am more concerned about Shardless BUG, not Eldrazi. Miracles cannot spend 25~30 minutes game one only to lose to Shardless BUG because of some miraculous cascading. I am pretty sure non-basic land hate is not the solution, not against fetch-basic Shardless players with null rod in the SB.
SCG Baltimore Top 4 Split Tournament Report
First off the list: Deck
After scrubbing out hard in the Open [I don’t play standard anyway], I was looking forward to the Legacy Classic [Legacy and Vintage are preferred formats]. I had gone down to Baltimore with a friend, and the only issue was going to be the four hour drive I had to make whenever my friend and I were done with the Classic. I’ve been playing this deck for quite a while now, alternating with Painter. The list on the Star City site added a Staticaster to my sideboard. I only ran one. I’ve been running this list fairly consistently with little to no changes recently, and even though I was considering replacing Venser up until the night before, I ended up not doing so, as I figured it was better to go with consistency. I don’t have sideboarding notes, so consider the sideboard section rough approximations.
Round 01 Douglas McKay (U/R Dream Halls Combo) (2-0)
G1: I don’t have who won the die roll here, and consequently who was on the play. Doug Intuitioned for Mizzix Mastery and Enter the Infinite. However, the Dream Halls was countered, and Snapcaster beats eventually get there.
Sideboarding:(I have no idea what he’s on, other than it’s an ETI combo deck using the graveyard)
- 4 Swords, probably a Terminus, Snapcaster, Ponder/Jace, + 2 Flusterstorm, 2 Pyroblast, 2 Clique, RIP
G2: Doug starts off, and I resolve an early Rest in Peace, followed by a Clique to take Dream Halls. After two hits from the flying trio, Doug concedes, and tells me he is unable to win through a Rest in Peace. His kill is a flashbacked Conflagrate.
(1-0)
Round 02 Daniel Harrison (15th) (Shardless BUG) (2-0) Daniel's List
G1: Daniel is on the play. It was a bit of a grind, with Swords keeping Deathrites from becoming active, and we trade resources. I have top/counterbalance, and the ancestral visions don’t get to resolve. Eventually he succumbs to a pair of Snapcasters beating down.
Sideboarding: -? (probably forces), + Probably Pyroblasts, Wear/Tears, Moat, Blood Moon, Flusterstorm, RIP
G2: Daniel is on the play again. I think Daniel got a bit flooded, as I was able to resolve a Jace, protect him, and ultimate. I definitely appreciate Daniel not just scooping and actually letting Jace ultimate.
(2-0)
Round 03 Chris Muller (22nd) (Shardless BUG) (0-2) Chris' List
G1: Another BUG deck. I was on the play. I never saw a Shardless Agent game 1, and put Chris on a BUG control build. Having mana problems, and facing down a Jace slowly going up, I conceded in order to have a chance for a full match.
Sideboarding: Same as Round 2, but no Wear/Tear
G2: Turns out there would be plenty of time. I got a bit flooded this game, and after getting Chris to 9, thought I had stabilized with an Entreat during combat on his turn. I did not tap out for the Entreat, and had enough angels left to get blown out by a succession of Abrupt Decay, Lili sacrifice, play new Lili sacrifice. I never saw it coming. Very well done
(2-1)
Round 04 Lucas Allison (Blue Burn) (2-0)
G1: A typical Delver style deck, featuring Stormchaser Mage and Monastery Swiftspear. I stabilize at 4 life, with an active counter/top lock and uptick Jace. Jace ultimates.
Sideboarding: - Force of Will, + 2 Pyroblast, Staticaster, Fluster
G2: I take a few hits, he gets a bit flooded, I sit behind counter/top, and eventually a few angels come to my rescue. They are not angels of mercy, and two swings later, he’s at 0.
(3-1)
Round 05 Max Ansbro (Dark Maverick/Junkblade) (2-1)
G1: I’m on the play. Max mulligans and keeps a 6. I have this deck down as Dark Maverick, but it could very well have been Junk Stoneblade. I’m not really sure what happened this game, but it was a win at high life totals, so probably Jace.
Sideboarding: -? (probably forces), + Wear/Tears, VClique, Moat, Blood Moon, Staticaster
G2: He gets a few hits in, until I land a Moat. We play draw go for a bit until he finds a Scryb Ranger, which my Staticaster will conveniently do nothing against. I didn’t find a swords or terminus, and die to ranger hits with a SoFI.
Sideboarding: No Change
G3: Another game that ended at a high life total. Probably Jace.
(4-1)
Round 06 Manuel Eliopoulos (17th) (Junkblade) (2-0) Manuel's List
G1: I’m on the play. Swords does its thing, preventing Deathrites from becoming too problematic. I think Manuel flooded out this game. Beat down with Snapcasters.
Sideboarding: Same as above
G2: Manuel’s on the play. He’s having mana issues and can’t find land in time. I resolve a Mentor, and Blood Moon, and he’s done.
(5-1)
Round 07 Joe Milia (8th) (Cloud Post) (ID) Joe's List
Joe and I are 5th and 6th going into this round so we ID and figure our breakers are good enough. We both make it in after the round is over. I didn’t find out until after that he was on Cloud Post. Interestingly, after the round ended, Joe ended up ahead of me in seeding for T8.
(5-1-1)
I got some food, and came back to wait for the announcement of top 8. The round lasted quite a bit longer because of a judge call that resulted in a player being disqualified.
Quarterfinals Sean Griffith (6th) (Nic Fit) (2-1) Sean's List
A grindfest that took about an hour and a half, with swift pace of play and no slow play.
G1: We go back and forth, with Sean Pathing his own Explorer instead of getting hit by Terminus. I have a Jace ticking up, and eventually he gets a Sigarda down with Karakas protection. Jace soaks a hit or two, and we continue to grind, until I am able to entreat for six angels. I have probably 20 cards left in library and am at 2. I’m dead to Pulse/Deed/Rhino/GSZ. He doesn’t find it, and the angels take it.
Sideboarding: -? (probably forces), + Containment Priests, Cliques, RIP, Blood Moon
G2: Another grindfest. Sean’s on the play and mulligans to 6. Sean is having mana issues, and I’m beating in with Clique + Snapcaster. Eventually he draws out of it at two, and Rhino + Swords is a 10 point life swing in his favor. He resolves Tsunami leaving me with two plains. I don’t topdeck a terminus, and die.
Sideboarding: It is stupidity time, after 7pm, and I bring in Venser, as well as 2 Forces.
G3: I’m on the play and we both mulligan. Sean’s having land problems again. I eventually land Mentor. I start cycling tops and swing 7. He names Abandon Hope with Slaughter games, and concedes.
Top 4 Split. We divided the tickets, and nonrandomly determined the winner of each pairing via concessions and end the tournament. No games were played, and we finally got finished sometime after 7pm (9:30am player meeting). After that was the approximately four hour drive home, arriving just after midnight, Monday morning.
Some thoughts:
Several of the rounds, especially the early rounds went to time, and longer, because of this deck. I did not gone to time this tournament, and as far as I can recall, the only time I went to time was when I had the lock in and my opponent did not realize he was dead. It is something I constantly stress to everyone who wants to pick up the deck. Know, or at least have an idea of what you’re looking for when you top/fetch/ponder, practice the physical movements to gain speed, and it’ll save a lot of awkward conversations at the end of games.
I constructed the manabase to be as wasteland proof as possible. Multiple games, my opponents were stuck with wastelands that were unable to cripple my development. Even against Sean, having the extra basics was useful when his Veteran Explorer died. There were some hands that were a bit awkward, but with the amount of cantrips the deck runs, hitting the land drops should not be a problem.
Overall I was happy with the deck. I like the split of threats, and both Mentor and ETA have their own merits. My opponents were great, and walking around I saw a lot of positive interactions, including people conceding to superior boardstates in turns, rather than knocking both players out with a draw.
Please let me know if you have any questions, or suggestions, I'm always happy to talk.
Good to see success against Shardless, a MU that has been known to give us headaches.
I hate this. And every time I complain about getting a draw because "my opponent just did not realize that there was no way to win" it's always met with "top keks you're le Miracles player DAE it's always your fault if you draw" yea well you try getting Jace to 13 at a rate faster than +2 per turn. Fucking pisses me off. I realize I can't just expect them to concede but when they're spending a minute+ each turn thinking about how they can break out of the lock when there's literally no way to do so and I'm EOT Top for 2 seconds, draw and pass, they should do both of us a favor and scoop. But apparently Miracles players cannot ever have fast turns :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by waz
Lol thank you for this.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
Soooo here's the playlist of saturdays matches. As I noticed too late that my recording software was a trial (that had ended), I couldn't record directly. Rerecorded them from the replays, again without commentary because of laziness. Sadly, due to it being replays, there are no waiting times inbetween actions, which makes the games pretty fast. Also, you don't see any CB flips, which is kind of strange. I'll have to skip the next two Legacy Challenges sadly (well, not sadly as the one in June is GP Prague, HYYYYPE), so I'll try to play the one in July. Maybe with commentary if I find a good way to blank out all the slurs and insults in our Skype conversation ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEL3...8OLU5rJZ1Zov-e Here's the playlist and there's the deck:
http://i.imgur.com/J2MDjtx.jpg
A few thoughts:
The whole tournament felt incredible awkward. I had spots of insane missfortune and was also inredibly lucky very often (see round 1, the swiss Miracle matches G1, the top 4 Miracle match, the Eldrazi matches, the swiss Miracle matches G2 and G3 and probably some other spots I missed). The horrendous missplay of the day was obv not taking a blue card in the last game. I immediately realized it after drawing the Wear / Tear.
The list itself is pretty solid, but that's about it. I'm thinking of doing something else for Prague, so hopefully there'll be some good League posting with a new list soon. The sideboard feels pretty well, although the Blood Moons are starting to drop in value. I still think they are very good and they probably deserve the slot, but the way the tournament went they were either very good oder very bad. Generally, I try to not include cards that have that big of a space inbetween, so there will probably also be some changes regarding the SB.
any thoughts on misdirection into the sb??
The only thing were I can really see Misdirection is Ancestral Vision and Hymn to Tourach. But boarding it only for the one matchup.. meh, seems to narrow.
i was thinking AV, Hymn, Abrupt Decay, FOW, pyroblast etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by mort-
Hey guys! I'm new to Legacy and want to start with Miracles. However, I am curious about win cons. I have seen lists that use Entreat, Mentor, and even the Rest in Peace/Helm combo (are these lists outdated?). Which appears to be the best for a new Legacy player, and is it possible to play without the red splash? I can't get my hands on Volcanics at the moment but eventually will.
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I have misdirected Hymn back to Shardless player such that he has no hand, only lands in play, and he still won; all he needed was just little cascading action into vision, some lucky-bounce, chicken-dinner, card-advantage rains on him, he's right back into the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by mort-
Control decks in any format is to understand each MU. You need to know which cards are must-counter in any given MUs, this does not suit well for new-to-Legacy novice. Therefore, as long as you make good trades, use SDT efficiently (turn memorizing into a habit), it really doesn't matter what your win con is. People have won plenty of games using Jace or Clique or Snapcaster. Yes, it is possible to play any Legacy decks, are you asking if a Miracles player can win a Legacy tournament without red splash? You need to be more clear on the question.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack
2 mentor & 2 predict main are really good vs shardless.
Then post side i'm used to crush them with keranos
I mean is the deck playable without the splash. This is mostly for LGS events and the like.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
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RIP/Helm is a special beast, which I play currently more as an act of love than out of any abstract analysis of its being better. It may not be, and I don't care. While many of the deck's games will play out like a more traditional Miracles deck would, other games don't feel "normal" at all. In addition to this, the deck has different matchups than the usual Ponder Miracles (I don't have experience with Legends so I cannot speak to that).Quote:
Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack
Take RUG and Shardless BUG for example. RUG is generally thought of as about even, but winnable, while Shardless is considered at least slightly unfavorable for Ponder Miracles. When you put 3 Rest In Peace into your main deck, however, things change. RUG's most important threats are blanked, and Shardless has a much more difficult time closing out the game: which they have to do before Helm of Obedience gets cast, and there's precious little in their deck that can answer this card.
Many Eldrazi decks, in addition to this, have a very hard time dealing with Energy Field / RIP lock, with most list I've seen just scooping up their cards game 1 against this combination. Postboard they'll have an answer, and if they find it, hopefully it can be Forced. The matchup is about even in my personal testing.
These improved matchups come with a heavy price. Mirror matches slip from even to unfavorable, as RIP/Helm attempts to oppose Snapcaster Mage and seemingly endless blasts with clunky, mana-intensive permanents that do little individually. Worse, just thinking about the play "Flickerwisp targeting Rest In Peace, Wasteland your Tundra, Energy Field sacrifice trigger?" makes me cringe.
As for whether the lists are "outdated," it's never been the most popular variant and hasn't had a lot of players pushing it for a long time, maybe ever. It's the type of deck that one wants a Moat for, especially right now, and this card isn't so easy to get hold of. It is theoretically sound, in the sense that if you're going to play a long game with a control deck you want permanents to do the heavy lifting, and very customizable given the presence of Enlightened Tutor in the main and/or side.
What's your meta like?Quote:
Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack
I personally think the red splash is necessary. You can just add a basic mountain and a Steam vents, and you're okay with the red splash.
Red blast is arguably our most important sideboard card. You simply need them in so many matchups.
RUG Delver is the most favorable out of all the flavors IMO (like 60/40 or better). The games we lose are close, but the games we win are blowouts. Playing around Stifle is easy, CB is an actual hard lock unlike against BU(r)G Delver, and they don't have problem non-creature permanents like Lilis, which show up occasionally in the decks running black.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lormador
I disagree, and consider the RUG Delver deck to be more difficult than the other tempo decks to deal with because of Stifle on my miracle spells and Nimble Mongoose. While it's true that they won't be breaking up my Counterbalance with a timely Abrupt Decay or dropping scary black permanents, I find the regular green or colorless permanents like Sylvan Library and Null Rod to be pretty strong.
Regardless, all of the Delver decks are strong and commonly played, and although RUG may or may not be on a downswing in some general sense, it's alive and well in my meta. BUG Delver doesn't like RIP much, either, because apparently Squire isn't too good in Legacy. Getting a few percentage points against these deck with Rest In Peace MD is a boon that the Helm decks offer.
Disagree. I don't need to repeat and go around in circle, I'll just quote, and I believe the discussion on that MU pretty much ends there.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
Quote:
Originally Posted by oarsman
My meta (from what I know of) is 1 MUD (only seen him playing once. Sorry if this isn't a Legacy deck. I know it's in Vintage, I just saw artifacts, and Lodestone Golem and thought MUD.), 1 Eldrazi, 1 Infect, and 1 GB Reanimator (although the mainboard plays like Mono Black). This is what I've seen from people playing between rounds at FNM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
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