All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa

Where's all the salt at though? I'm surprised that are aren't more complaints/rants from people who got hit by these pretty unexpected bans. It made former Miracles players go bananas too when SDT was banned after all. Why all the silence?

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I think you have already answered your own question. Do you just not feel you are getting your money's worth though? Or are you are looking to troll people and just can't quite find a target?

I own foil Deathrites, FBB duals for BUG and I'm not salty. I question the validity of the rationale behind the ban, but then I move on with my life, sleeve up my non-Deathrite, non-Probe cards and play the damn game. I'm sure other adults are doing the same. That's not good enough for you?

Time to sleeve up Food Chain with maindeck relics. Goyf, mongoose and griselbrand hoser will be good.

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Originally Posted by H

I'm sure other adults are doing the same. That's not good enough for you?

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This and maybe, just maybe these adults can digest both bans without calling every two weeks for an unban of a certain 1 mana artifact unlike others. Who knows? Might be a pleasant change

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

This and maybe, just maybe these adults can digest both bans without calling every two weeks for an unban of a certain 1 mana artifact unlike others. Who knows? Might be a pleasant for a change

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A nice idea, but I can almost guarantee that whatever "next best thing" is found in the meta, there will be a mob formed to demand it's take down. So, ignore those Top folk and enjoy the respite we get until anything proves itself better than anything else. Or, you know, embrace the never-ending, good ol' Brainstorm conundrum...

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Originally Posted by RhoxWarMonk

I feel your pain man.... in a lot of ways, it would have been far easier if Brainstorm got banned instead of DRS. I'm hopeful there will still be a control deck available in legacy that isn't Miracles (or Lands, I suppose) in BUG/Grixis colors but Im very worried about it being much too slow without deathrite.

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There are definitely still control decks. BUG and Grixis control will both still work, there's plenty of goofy stuff to do with Standstill in a variety of colors, Death and Taxes gets better now that mana denial works again.

On the tempo side, I expect both BUG and Grixis tempo decks of some variety will continue to be played successfully, along with perhaps a bit of a resurgence of RUG.

I'm not totally sold that DRS needed to be banned, but I'm excited with the space opening up in the metagame and interested to see how it shakes out.

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Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa

Where's all the salt at though? I'm surprised that are aren't more complaints/rants from people who got hit by these pretty unexpected bans. It made former Miracles players go bananas too when SDT was banned after all. Why all the silence?

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Because Pile and Delver players are more reasonable than the kind of people who played Miracles with Top. I am surprised to see a post of yours without voting for a Brainstorm ban, though.

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Originally Posted by JBlaze

I realize my last post could be read either way so I should clarify that I don't want Brainstorm banned. Im just a guy who wanted to play Grixis Delver and 4 Color Control till the end of time. Banning Brainstorm would have hurt but I would have just sleeved up 4x preordain and kept rolling. Now I'm just lost.

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You can still play Grixis Delver, it just wont be as strong. Hymn, SCM, TSeize, Gurmang/SScavenger, Fatal Push, and company all make a pretty decent Delver variant. No mini-planeswalker or Probing my anus for you though. I personally love this ban, came out of nowhere, nice little present before the 4th. Now people will actually have to side in some graveyard hate, and SCM decks taking over means a slower format, which I am also okay with. The Probe ban weakens so many decks, which I am happy as hell fore. Probe and Deathrite, above all, became too ubiquitous. Legacy players have always feared that a card may come and every deck will adopt it (ergo Goyfstill, Goyfblins, Goyfolk funny stuff). The cards WotC have printed lately have just been too good, and too easy to splash. Phyrexian mana this, dual-color spell that. Good bans.

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Originally Posted by Bosque

There are definitely still control decks. BUG and Grixis control will both still work, there's plenty of goofy stuff to do with Standstill in a variety of colors, Death and Taxes gets better now that mana denial works again.

On the tempo side, I expect both BUG and Grixis tempo decks of some variety will continue to be played successfully, along with perhaps a bit of a resurgence of RUG.

I'm not totally sold that DRS needed to be banned, but I'm excited with the space opening up in the metagame and interested to see how it shakes out.

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I actually think Grixis is a hard counter to RUG and will be the major post-DRS tempo deck for a few reasons:

1) More people own the cards for it, especially if they were on Czech Pile before.
2) Angler is bigger than the average Goyf and can shrink opposing Goyfs in some cases.
3) A creature core of Delver, Goose, and Goyf is probably roughly as effective as a creature core of Delver, Young Peezy, and Angler, but Grixis has access to a much broader and more customizable disruption suite than RUG
4) In Ye Olden Dayes, having Krosan Grip in the sideboard used to be a real benefit in matchups where you expected CounterTop to choke your tempo plan. Now that Top is gone, Counterbalance is much worse, so the best green disruption spell is no longer a factor.

I'm starting to wonder if the question is actually BUG versus Grixis. BUG is probably slightly weaker as a tempo deck than RUG is but Decay is a helluva card, and so is Leovold. It might be that Grixis is the best tempo deck and BUG is the best midrange deck if you want to play blue and spells, but who knows? Now that DRS is gone, anything is possible. Perhaps Dredge is even a deck again.

"It's one of the "pillars of the format" that makes it unique and players tolerate/love. It's like Brainstorm in Legacy. Every saturation metric we could ever invent would point to it being banned, but people love it. Transgressive stuff needs a place to live." ~Aaron Forsythe

This is the first time I've heard literal nonsense from WOTC (mainly because I dont look for it). I'm so glad the director of R&D has the ability to speak for the public with such a piss poor view of what they want. There are many banned cards that could have been pillars of the format if you just didn't ban them...Ancestral Recall comes to mind immediately. Black lotus and the moxes are probably on the short list for that too...

Even without brainstorm blue still has force of will supporting it as a "pillar."
White - Swords to Plowshares
Black - Thoughtseize / Dark Ritual
Green - Tarmogoyf
Blue - Force of Will
Red - Lightning Bolt

There are also examples of pillars of the format that are healthy instead of meta warping. Take dual lands for example. They allow for greater ease in deck construction but are not so good that they are a problem (other than cost). Fetch lands would also be a good example.

Forsythe is actually right, though. Brainstorm makes Legacy unique and therefore gives it a draw:

Limited: I want to show up without any cards and build a deck on the spot.

Standard: I want to play mirror matches for months until a card gets banned.

Modern: I want to play whatever deck I want with the understanding that there is probably a sideboard card out there that will utterly destroy me.

Legacy: I want to play Turbo Xerox.

Vintage: I want to do degenerate shit with all the most powerful cards in the game.

If they get rid of Brainstorm, Legacy just turns into a Rich Man's Modern, which means it's basically a much worse Modern, or a Poor Man's Vintage, which means it's a much less fun Vintage.

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

If they get rid of Brainstorm, Legacy just turns into a Rich Man's Modern, which means it's basically a much worse Modern, or a Poor Man's Vintage, which means it's a much less fun Vintage.

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What a spicy take.

>implying you can't turbo xerox with ponder and preordain

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

>implying you can't turbo xerox with ponder and preordain

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Pretty much. Preordain is good enough to be played as 4-of in Vintage since Ponder and Brainstorm are restricted. If it's good enough for Vintage, why wouldn't it be good enough for Legacy? :really:

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

If they get rid of Brainstorm, Legacy just turns into a Rich Man's Modern, which means it's basically a much worse Modern, or a Poor Man's Vintage, which means it's a much less fun Vintage.

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I'm not sure if you're ironic or not, because the sheer arrogance thinking that a single card IS a format is baffling (and there people out there who think that way). E.g. try to play Lands in Vintage or Modern - good luck with that.

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

Forsythe is actually right, though. Brainstorm makes Legacy unique and therefore gives it a draw:

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It's possible you don't understand the definition of unique...

u·nique
yo͞oˈnēk/Submit
adjective
1. being the only one of its kind; unlike anything else.

There is nothing unique about saturating the format with the same card...other than maybe an entire format revolving around 1 card...

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Originally Posted by apple713

There is nothing unique about saturating the format with the same card...other than maybe an entire format revolving around 1 card...

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That's actually mostly it, yes.

Legacy is unique because it's the format where it's easiest to play Turbo Xerox decks. It's the only format where you can start a deck with 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, and then add draw to taste if you want. They banned the cantrips out of Modern, so you can't do this there; they don't print cantrips on the power level of even Preordain anymore, so you can't do this in Standard; and in Vintage, all of the easy card draw is restricted, so you're limited in what you can do. Legacy's selling point is that it's defined by Turbo Xerox decks.

Think of it this way: there was evidence a decade ago that Brainstorm was dominant, and they did nothing. They could try to do something now, but there's no incentive to make drastic banning decisions to get the format back on track because they would rather herd people into Modern, where there's full reprint support (read: maximum sales potential) and more card availability. They'll leave Brainstorm alone because it's the format's poster child.

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

That's actually mostly it, yes.

Legacy is unique because it's the format where it's easiest to play Turbo Xerox decks. It's the only format where you can start a deck with 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, and then add draw to taste if you want. They banned the cantrips out of Modern, so you can't do this there; they don't print cantrips on the power level of even Preordain anymore, so you can't do this in Standard; and in Vintage, all of the easy card draw is restricted, so you're limited in what you can do. Legacy's selling point is that it's defined by Turbo Xerox decks.

Think of it this way: there was evidence a decade ago that Brainstorm was dominant, and they did nothing. They could try to do something now, but there's no incentive to make drastic banning decisions to get the format back on track because they would rather herd people into Modern, where there's full reprint support (read: maximum sales potential) and more card availability. They'll leave Brainstorm alone because it's the format's poster child.

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I can give you some credits if you are decoding WotC'S thought process. However, suggesting Legacy-Brainstorm < Modern is plain absurd, unless you mean Legacy < Modern, which has nothing to do with Brainstorm. Without Brainstorm, Legacy would still be a format with Ponder and Preordain, and many other identities including FoW, Wasteland, and no stupid pillars (Workshop/Bazaar/MoxenLotus). There is actually a very good format with all cantrips legal, go and play Pauper.

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Originally Posted by tsabo_tavoc

go and play Pauper.

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This is pretty much my thought on Legacy being the Turbo Xerox format; why pay $4K to copy your ass for days when you can pay $40 for the experience?

Plus, with the banning of Gitgud Probe, Pauper is even more Xerox-y than Legacy is! It's the only format where you can actually play the entire cantrip cartel. Gush is even legal, the most #SkillTesting card next to Brainstorm and Griselbrand.

Concerning Pauper 100% agreed.

As someone who owns 3 play sets of either signed or foil or both, Gitaxian Probes, i'm going to shove them into every pauper deck i have whether they want them or not! :tongue:



It would actually be great if WOTC could push pauper as the cantrip format, considering putting Gush and Brainstorm in your deck there is not a trivial deck building consideration without duals and fetches, and then actually address things properly in Legacy.

I hope WOTC starts pushing Pauper as the Old School, non rotating format of choice. It has no reserve list, it has no price barrier, it has broken cards, it plays out much like classic legacy and old old extended used to, which is really the experience that a lot of Legacy players want.

Pauper is where I have the most fun. I play Delver and Elves, sometimes Tron and I find it lovely. The only issue I have with the format is the "No Alcohol" rule in the store I play in and a lack of true prison in the format.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Pauper is where I have the most fun. I play Delver and Elves, sometimes Tron and I find it lovely. The only issue I have with the format is the "No Alcohol" rule in the store I play in and a lack of true prison in the format.

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If you consider Ponza as a prison deck. I think there is a Mono Green and Mono Black version of the deck.

It's insane how some of you keep bragging about brainstorm even if it's clear that it wont get banned ever.

You may be disappointed, but if you truly hate brainstorm the "then play another format" solution it's actually the only one, right or not, brainstorm will never get banned, fetches will never get banned, duals will never get banned, get over it...

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Originally Posted by Noctalor

It's insane how some of you keep bragging about brainstorm even if it's clear that it wont get banned ever.

You may be disappointed, but if you truly hate brainstorm the "then play another format" solution it's actually the only one, right or not, brainstorm will never get banned, fetches will never get banned, duals will never get banned, get over it...

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The dinosaurs will slowly die
And I do believe no one will cry
I'm just fucking glad I'm gonna be
There to watch the fall

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Originally Posted by Matsu

If you consider Ponza as a prison deck. I think there is a Mono Green and Mono Black version of the deck.

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There is also the one dude who has been having a lot of success with Rhystic Circle tron recently

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Originally Posted by Noctalor

It's insane how some of you keep bragging about brainstorm even if it's clear that it wont get banned ever.

You may be disappointed, but if you truly hate brainstorm the "then play another format" solution it's actually the only one, right or not, brainstorm will never get banned, fetches will never get banned, duals will never get banned, get over it...

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I think the general feel since it got official Pillar status has been to "Get over it". Does not make it right. Does not making voicing ones opinion wrong.

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Originally Posted by Noctalor

It's insane how some of you keep bragging about brainstorm even if it's clear that it wont get banned ever.

You may be disappointed, but if you truly hate brainstorm the "then play another format" solution it's actually the only one, right or not, brainstorm will never get banned, fetches will never get banned, duals will never get banned, get over it...

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I don't hate brainstorm. I just wish it didn't dwarf the diversity of the format. If you remove it from the format blue is forced to do other things than just splash into every deck because it makes the deck more efficient. Other cards become useful and different decks emerge. banning it would be in line with their philosophy of removing something from the format because is warps the format and hinders diversity. I cannot think of a better example than brainstorm. The other pillars of the format dont even remotely have the same effect.

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Originally Posted by apple713

If you remove it from the format blue is forced to do other things than just splash into every deck because it makes the deck more efficient. Other cards become useful and different decks emerge.

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As if Ponder + Preordain + FoW wouldn't be a total no-brainer for next to every deck in that case.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

As if Ponder + Preordain + FoW wouldn't be a total no-brainer for next to every deck in that case.

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Preordain is a sourcery.

Ponder and Preordain being sorceries are issues, yes, but I don't think they reduce the power of blue enough to break open the metagame. Daze and Force both allow tempo decks to operate at sorcery speed without having a Shields Down moment, and tempo decks with blue and black already tap out for discard, so...

Brainstorm is just hands-down the best cantrip available.

Also, 100% agreed on Pauper being great. It's not a real format, though. WotC needs to officially reconcile the legality difference between paper and online first - print Battle Screech and Chainer's Edict at common in a Masters set and then figure out whether they want Hymn, High Tide, and Sinkhole legal in the format (my guess is no, yes, no).

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

As if Ponder + Preordain + FoW wouldn't be a total no-brainer for next to every deck in that case.

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Sure you could start playing preordain but the power loss from brainstorm would really impact decks more than you think.

Some would call force of will a pillar, and in my opinion it is. However, it is an important tool in maintaining balance and irder to the format. If you remove it combo decks run rampant and wotc has to ban all the combos in the format. You end up with something that looks like modern...no one wants that.

Using preordain if brainstorm gets removed is a no brainer because preordain is just the next best option. The difficult choice comes when you have to answer the question, are preordain and ponder good enough for me to not consider options in other colors?

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Preordain is a sourcery.

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Ponder and preordain are sorceries AND they are not nearly as good as brainstorm.

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

Ponder and Preordain being sorceries are issues, yes, but I don't think they reduce the power of blue enough to break open the metagame. Daze and Force both allow tempo decks to operate at sorcery speed without having a Shields Down moment, and tempo decks with blue and black already tap out for discard, so...

Brainstorm is just hands-down the best cantrip available.

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Legacy is a format about being the most efficient as possible with your cards and choices. Many games are won by small margins. If you force decks that play blue to play with preordain and ponder instead of brainstorm and ponder the value of adding blue to your deck in general drops. Maybe now it is not as efficient to play with blue as opposed to another color.

Force of will requires 16-20 blue cards to reliably be cast in deck. If your blue card options are now not as good it becomes less attractive to include.

Think of how many decks are built and come into fruition because 1 new card is printed? I'm not talking about a a card that allows for a new combo or something but rather a card that increases consistency enough for a deck to be successful.

I would challenge people that believe the impact of what i'm saying to simply take a deck they play with brainstorm and replace them with preordain and play 10 games. Note the inefficiencies and report back.

Who cares if Ponder & Preordain are worse than Brainstorm as long as they are better than Harmonize and pitch to FoW?

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Preordain is a sourcery.

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If preordain is a sour-cery, is brainstorm a shitstant?

Brainstorm was never the problem. The problem is fetchland.

You axe fetch land, and
1) duals return to normal prices
2) other lands stand a chance of being playable
3) brainstorm loses its grip on the format

The free shuffle effect is what makes Brainstorm busted, not the effect itself.

If Brainstorm does get the axe, I can't wait for Miracles players to have to run shit like Conch Horn. I mean, they're already running Soothsaying in the absence of Sensei's Divining Top :D

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...1829&type=card

I feel like Scroll Rack is better than Conch Horn by many degrees of magnitude....which is why a Conch Horn buyout is unavoidable at this point. :laugh:

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Originally Posted by bruizar

Brainstorm was never the problem. The problem is fetchland.

You axe fetch land, and
1) duals return to normal prices
2) other lands stand a chance of being playable
3) brainstorm loses its grip on the format

The free shuffle effect is what makes Brainstorm busted, not the effect itself.

If Brainstorm does get the axe, I can't wait for Miracles players to have to run shit like Conch Horn. I mean, they're already running Soothsaying in the absence of Sensei's Divining Top :D

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...1829&type=card

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Very very rarely have I seen soothsaying in a deck. And axing fetches just makes duals more necessary. Now instead of 2-3 of a dual I need 4

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

(...)And axing fetches just makes duals more necessary. Now instead of 2-3 of a dual I need 4

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This is almost right - Except when you remove the fetchland's need of a basic land type, your card pool opens up to many different "dual land" cycles that regain usefulness because they are no longer painfully outclassed. Maybe painland days are gone, but there are fastlands and others, as well as new "city of brass"-esque lands with several different takes, none of which see a significant amount of play in the format at the moment. But maybe they would...

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Originally Posted by bruizar

Brainstorm was never the problem. The problem is fetchland.

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Of course they are. You however wont get WotC and the playerbase behind that idea because they would all hyperbole into "OMG! EVERY DECK NOW NEEDS 20 DUALS! 8000$ decks!"

Without Fetches you could unban anything from Deathrite over Divining Top to Treasure Cruise without any negative impact while drastically nerfing blue altogether.

Yeah, WOTC should ban fetchlands in a format with Wasteland. They need to get right on that.

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Originally Posted by Noctalor

It's insane how some of you keep bragging about brainstorm even if it's clear that it wont get banned ever.

You may be disappointed, but if you truly hate brainstorm the "then play another format" solution it's actually the only one, right or not, brainstorm will never get banned, fetches will never get banned, duals will never get banned, get over it...

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Like many others, I don't hate Brainstorm. I love Brainstorm, and own ~30 copies to play it across several Legacy decks. You can also tell I love playing blue. The last card I own as many that is not a basic land? Mental Misstep I enjoy playing with Brainstorm, and I also enjoyed playing Mental Misstep. Why do I advocate a ban for since a decade? So that many other cards I also enjoy playing won't be the victims, including DRS and Probe. I am afraid we are seeing a scenario as Vintage banning 3sphere, Lodestone Golem, and Thorn of Amethyst. One day, it will touch your pet card, don't weep and kiss Brainstorm.

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

This is almost right - Except when you remove the fetchland's need of a basic land type, your card pool opens up to many different "dual land" cycles that regain usefulness because they are no longer painfully outclassed. Maybe painland days are gone, but there are fastlands and others, as well as new "city of brass"-esque lands with several different takes, none of which see a significant amount of play in the format at the moment. But maybe they would...

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I understand what you're saying, but duals are still the best choice 99% of the time and thus before you play any number of Seachrome Coast, Glacial Fortress, or Mystic Gate, you are already maxed out on Tundra

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Originally Posted by MorphBerlin

Because the average legacy players don't react like the snobbish miracles cult does...

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Or the Miracles players are smart enough to see past the BS rationale that WotC gave for the Top ban and people have been saying DRS is broke since even before the Top ban.

In other words, people aren't salty about DRS because they know it deserves a ban, whereas people are salty about Top because it wasn't the card that needed a ban from that deck.