All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by H

Now this is the B&R thread we've all come to know and love. We haven't even had the current ban come into effect and we are already planning the umpteen subsequent bans we need.

Reminds me of something that (I think it was) BrassMan said over at TMD. That no one wants to discuss the actual current card pool, only hypothetical future card pools...

How far can we go? Can we push the limit? What about the next 10 bans? Can we ban cards before they exist? Lets think outside the box everybody, this shit now is small potatoes. Lets push BIG ROCKS.

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Skipping about 17 steps, ban Lightning Bolt! The rate is too good for only one mana, shits broke y'all.

Muthafucka gotta go.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Skipping about 17 steps, ban Lightning Bolt! The rate is too good for only one mana, shits broke y'all.

Muthafucka gotta go.

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Sounds like Maro's design philosophy. Fuck good things when you can have a whole load of uninspired mediocrity at 3+ mana (while also admitting 1-2 years later that new design X was a mistake in hindsight).

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Originally Posted by H

Lets think outside the box everybody, this shit now is small potatoes. Lets push BIG ROCKS.

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Big rocks should be banned

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Skipping about 17 steps, ban Lightning Bolt! The rate is too good for only one mana, shits broke y'all.

Muthafucka gotta go.

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Now that's the spirit. Anything south of Ember Shot is oppressive to sub-4 toughness creatures and needs to go. That's some bullshit, you know how many new strategies would open up? Neither do I. It's probably millions though.

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

Big rocks should be banned

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So. Fucking. Meta.

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

Big rocks should be banned

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Please don't ban Thran Dynamo.

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Originally Posted by Andy_Prime

About banning fetches people haven't mentioned one of the most important things. It cuts out chances for cheating. There is much less picking up decks and manipulating them. Many of the big cheaters in the last years where made possible by fetches being in standard.

For that and the saved time shuffling and cutting alone I would be all for them going away.

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All of them used their decks. Maybe we should have surrogates play the games too.

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Originally Posted by Finn

Lemnear, I am really coming around to your point of view on this. This most recent banning drives this point home even more. I am reiterating here...Without fetchies, Brainstorm would also be a much weakened card. Add to that the recent discussion of how many different lands would feel more useful if we aren't always fetching for basic land types. Over time it seems like the price tag of duals would ease some - perhaps even a lot, as players begin to see value in non-traditional mana bases.

You get to keep the fun cards that have hitherto been havoc on Legacy while pruning their effect, and you reduce the barrier for entry. Is there a downside to this plan?

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I played legacy lantern with fastlands, spires and glimmervoid and maindecked choke. It worked great, the manabase was never working against me and I got to really manhandle Miracles with it. There's plenty of manabases to discover if fetchlands get axed. It would make the game a lot more interesting. Ponder would take Brainstorm's place, and brainstorm probably wouldn't even be played, which already feels more fair. DRS, Top, Daze and many other cards would become less overbearing too.

It would also force the 4 color deck to use 5-color lands more often because due to fetchland the cost of running multiple colors has gone away. By removing fetchland you restore a lot of the character of the game and restore the identity of the color pie, to the extent that this is still possible.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

I played legacy lantern with fastlands, spires and glimmervoid and maindecked choke. It worked great, the manabase was never working against me and I got to really manhandle Miracles with it. There's plenty of manabases to discover if fetchlands get axed. It would make the game a lot more interesting. Ponder would take Brainstorm's place, and brainstorm probably wouldn't even be played, which already feels more fair. DRS, Top, Daze and many other cards would become less overbearing too.

It would also force the 4 color deck to use 5-color lands more often because due to fetchland the cost of running multiple colors has gone away. By removing fetchland you restore a lot of the character of the game and restore the identity of the color pie, to the extent that this is still possible.

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I feel like any deck planning to be active on turn 1 would max out duals first, shocks second as they can always ETB untapped, and then whatever oddball has the third best chance of not coming in tapped (painlands?). Of course this assumes that tempo and fast combo are able to keep up the pace in a fetchless world.

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Originally Posted by Finn

Lemnear, I am really coming around to your point of view on this. This most recent banning drives this point home even more. I am reiterating here...Without fetchies, Brainstorm would also be a much weakened card. Add to that the recent discussion of how many different lands would feel more useful if we aren't always fetching for basic land types. Over time it seems like the price tag of duals would ease some - perhaps even a lot, as players begin to see value in non-traditional mana bases.

You get to keep the fun cards that have hitherto been havoc on Legacy while pruning their effect, and you reduce the barrier for entry. Is there a downside to this plan?

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This is Pauper, mind you, but there people are running as much as 7 fetchlands to fuel snow land counts for Skred and to get shuffles for Brainstorm. It's interesting to note that in Pauper Preordain is usually the default cantrip because they have to take a huge hit in speed to enable Brainstorm.

Banning fetches would make 3+ color decks need a dork or cantrips (kind of). Even if you just load up on duals, I think 3 colors without fetchlands would be greedier than current 4c decks and more vulnerable to blood moon/ wasteland because fetching for basics isn't a thing, even if drs was unbanned, it wouldn't be able to use its mana ability as frequently as with fetches.

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Originally Posted by phonics

Banning fetches would make 3+ color decks need a dork or cantrips (kind of). Even if you just load up on duals, I think 3 colors without fetchlands would be greedier than current 4c decks and more vulnerable to blood moon/ wasteland because fetching for basics isn't a thing, even if drs was unbanned, it wouldn't be able to use its mana ability as frequently as with fetches.

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Isn't that something more in line with the original idea and concept of Back to Basics and Blood Moon to punish greedy 3c decks?

I think we all have been brainwashed a bit by Fetchland+Duals+DRS in the last 6 years, believing that 3 to 3.5 colors decks without issues or drawbacks are normal.

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Originally Posted by Zombie

This is Pauper, mind you, but there people are running as much as 7 fetchlands to fuel snow land counts for Skred and to get shuffles for Brainstorm. It's interesting to note that in Pauper Preordain is usually the default cantrip because they have to take a huge hit in speed to enable Brainstorm.

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Relatable, as I mentioned Ponders problems if you have to take the top 3 cards instead of cherrypicking one.

I don't think there is a downside if people have to make tradeoffs and work for their perfect brainstorms instead of having them cost only 1 lifepoint and get additionally rewarded with perfect mana

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Originally Posted by phonics

Banning fetches would make 3+ color decks need a dork or cantrips (kind of). Even if you just load up on duals, I think 3 colors without fetchlands would be greedier than current 4c decks and more vulnerable to blood moon/ wasteland because fetching for basics isn't a thing, even if drs was unbanned, it wouldn't be able to use its mana ability as frequently as with fetches.

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This seems like a feature to me. Not a problem.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I think we all have been brainwashed a bit by Fetchland+Duals+DRS in the last 6 years, believing that 3 to 3.5 colors decks without issues or drawbacks are normal.

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This is what wizards WANT, however. They exploit all the possibilities of the game. The invention of playable multi color cards, supported by variations of dual lands, is a good way, in theory, to get variation and keep the game alive. I don't expect that to change.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

This is what wizards WANT, however. They exploit all the possibilities of the game. The invention of playable multi color cards, supported by variations of dual lands, is a good way, in theory, to get variation and keep the game alive. I don't expect that to change.

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I think the DRS 4c decks we had until the ban impressively demonstrated how easy access to 3 or more colors removes variation and diversity from a format. Not having to make tradeoffs in terms of color/cardselection automatically results in pure goodstuff decks.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Not having to make tradeoffs in terms of color/cardselection automatically results in pure goodstuff decks.

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This

It was also demonstrated during the fetches/duals Standard season of Khans/BFZ. Everything devolved into a 4C clusterfuck with illustrious names such as "Dark Jeskai". That's why counterplay is so important - restrictions breed creativity.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I think the DRS 4c decks we had until the ban impressively demonstrated how easy access to 3 or more colors removes variation and diversity from a format. Not having to make tradeoffs in terms of color/cardselection automatically results in pure goodstuff decks.

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I think that the pre-DRS 4c decks we had before that card got printed impressively demonstrated that trying to be that greedy with your manabase without having a broken manadork is a recipe for being reamed by Canadian.
(EDIT: this is why the Khans Standard comparison is dumb, because that was in a format with literally 0 playable manadenial options)

I agree with your philosophy that 'midrange/goodstuff decks being able to play any card removes an interesting strategic element from the game', but we just axed the best manafixer so maybe you can pause your crusade for a minute and see where the format goes.

In my opinion banning fetches pushes the dynamic too far in the other direction (towards making 2-3 color decks unplayable), especially if Wasteland is legal
"I guess I just lose to this because there is no answer in my colours" or "Can't play this cool combo I thought of because the mana is terrible" isn't a great place for the format either

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I think the DRS 4c decks we had until the ban impressively demonstrated how easy access to 3 or more colors removes variation and diversity from a format. Not having to make tradeoffs in terms of color/cardselection automatically results in pure goodstuff decks.

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Yeah, part of the problem is also that good gold cards have good color requirements that lead to easy inclusion of supporting cards. Take Leovold for example. Black for Thoughtseize, Gurmag; green for DRS and goyf; blue for all the blue good stuff. It would have been so much better to give leovold :b::b::u: casting cost, for example.

With DRS gone no one has mentioned the two most impactful changes to the meta: lackey connects and Odious Trow replaces DRS in the Spainish Inquisition.

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

I think that the pre-DRS 4c decks we had before that card got printed impressively demonstrated that trying to be that greedy with your manabase without having a broken manadork is a recipe for being reamed by Canadian.
(EDIT: this is why the Khans Standard comparison is dumb, because that was in a format with literally 0 playable manadenial options)

I agree with your philosophy that 'midrange/goodstuff decks being able to play any card removes an interesting strategic element from the game', but we just axed the best manafixer so maybe you can pause your crusade for a minute and see where the format goes.

In my opinion banning fetches pushes the dynamic too far in the other direction (towards making 2-3 color decks unplayable), especially if Wasteland is legal
"I guess I just lose to this because there is no answer in my colours" or "Can't play this cool combo I thought of because the mana is terrible" isn't a great place for the format either

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I do not think banning the fetchlands will remove the possibility to play 3 or 4 colors. I play mtg since the Rath block and we had multicolored mana decks. I recently am more and more interested in Premodern, mostly because of the stagnation in Legacy(now this might change), here is a list that took second place in a recent tournament in Sweden.

MAIN DECK | 60 cards

Instants and Sorceries: 34
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Fire // Ice
2 Gaea's Blessing
1 Clear
3 Impulse
1 Miscalculation
4 Counterspell
3 Absorb
4 Fact or Fiction
2 Wrath of God
2 Decree of Justice

Others: 1
1 Humility

Lands: 25
4 Grand Coliseum
4 Reflecting Pool
3 Shivan Reef
1 Adarkar Wastes
2 Battlefield Forge
1 City of Brass
3 Coastal Tower
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Plains

SIDEBOARD | 15 cards
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Shattering Pulse
4 Meddling Mage
1 Slice and Dice

As you can see he played only two fetchlands in a format where you have access to the Onslaught Fetch. Changing the painlands to duallands will be obvious in this situation and i do not think completely switching Flooded Strand to Adarkar Wastes/City of Brass will demolish the mana base. This is also a format where Brainstorm is banned, btw.

I think removing the fetchlands should be considered as an possibility by WotC.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Yeah, part of the problem is also that good gold cards have good color requirements that lead to easy inclusion of supporting cards. Take Leovold for example. Black for Thoughtseize, Gurmag; green for DRS and goyf; blue for all the blue good stuff. It would have been so much better to give leovold :b::b::u: casting cost, for example.

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Tarmogoyf wasn't even a Legacy card during DRS' reign. Moreover, i doesnt matter if Leovold is :u::g::b: or :b::b::g: if you can cast the card off DRS without the need to have a green producing land in play. The fact that some decks seriously ran K.Command alongside Jace just underlines the absurdity of colorfixing going on.

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

your crusade for a minute and see where the format goes.

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I'm not on a crusade against DRS, even stating it several times across threads.

However, i am kinda annoyed that WotC once again just chopped the hydras head, instead of laying hands on the enabler of all the problem cards. For more than half a decade, we just dance around the 0cc shuffle, colorfix and manabase protectors, while bitching/moaning/banning every card (directly or indirectly) running on their back. TC, DRS, SDT, DTT, BS, Ponder, Delver, Angler, Leovold, and many, many more.

It has become a running joke to ban everything but Fetches + Brainstorm + Ponder

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

It has become a running joke to ban everything but Fetches + Brainstorm + Ponder

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That running joke literally is Legacy.

Years ago, I asked this very question. You can go back and see what people felt the answer should be.

The fact of that matter is, Wizards has definitively answered this and the fetch-Brainstorm interaction is absolutely a cornerstone, if not the keystone. You can argue there shouldn't be sacred cows, but there are and they aren't going anywhere.

This ban though is no different than the Twin ban in Modern a few years ago. People feel there is a defacto "best deck" and ahead of a Pro Tour, Wizards takes the head off of it. Nothing surprising or unprecedented here.

I'm glad we've found something to bitch about so quickly, otherwise this great thread might fall silent. Can we add 'Windswept Heath' to the poll?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I'm not on a crusade against DRS, even stating it several times across threads.

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I was saying you were hating fetchlands, not DRS

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However, i am kinda annoyed that WotC once again just chopped the hydras head, instead of laying hands on the enabler of all the problem cards. For more than half a decade, we just dance around the 0cc shuffle, colorfix and manabase protectors, while bitching/moaning/banning every card (directly or indirectly) running on their back. TC, DRS, SDT, DTT, BS, Ponder, Delver, Angler, Leovold, and many, many more.

It has become a running joke to ban everything but Fetches + Brainstorm + Ponder

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You're just next in the line of "X got banned, complain about Y"
Fetchlands aren't going to be the unique exception

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

You're just next in the line of "X got banned, complain about Y"
Fetchlands aren't going to be the unique exception

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But they are the Emperor Palpatine in the shadows behind the Darth Maul that just got killed.

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

I was saying you were hating fetchlands, not DRS

You're just next in the line of "X got banned, complain about Y"
Fetchlands aren't going to be the unique exception

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That implies, I jump from one card to the next, which just isn't true. I keep pointing to fetchlands being the core issue since Miracles was dominating the format. No one "hates" fetches. I just outlined my points on how these cards create and feed dominant cores again and again. On my end, I am of course fine with different opinions.

I think that if fetch lands do get banned, it would shake up the format so fundamentally that all bets would be off. I really feel that it would be like 2005 all over again. And let me tell you. That was an amazing time.

-The Goblins deck was constructed by dozens of people. It was all very egalitarian. We were trying lots of angles with no map to guide us. Aether Vial with Goblin Ringleader came about as the best strategy for it over time. Nobody even knew which goblins were better than others.

-Landstill was the de facto control deck. The only reason this was true is because it was popular in Vintage at the time. The exact cards in it ranged widely. Again, we had No Idea what would work best.

-Combo was a virtual blank slate. There was Solidarity (High Tide), and IGGy (Ill-Gotten Gains-Tendrils) came out soon after. But it was never that good. This was before Empty the Vaults and Ad Nauseam made TES possible. And there was Belcher, but it killed its user all the time because the search and tutor cards were weak. Lots of old Extended decks were attempted too.

-There were a multitude of attempts at nonblue control decks, but none of them ever quite caught on.

-There were also a variety of strange decks that all used Survival of the Fittest long before Vengevine got it banned. Goblin Welder (my first design and entry into Legacy) and Tradewind Rider were the most popular.

-And then there was Threshold. This was the very first version of what we would call RUG now. It was the best of the early decks but it took us many months to even figure it out. There were just not a lot of people and we were trying to figure out the boundaries as we went.

It was fantastic. It would be my pleasure to get a second chance to experience that.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Tarmogoyf wasn't even a Legacy card during DRS' reign. Moreover, i doesnt matter if Leovold is :u::g::b: or :b::b::g: if you can cast the card off DRS without the need to have a green producing land in play. The fact that some decks seriously ran K.Command alongside Jace just underlines the absurdity of colorfixing going on.



I'm not on a crusade against DRS, even stating it several times across threads.

However, i am kinda annoyed that WotC once again just chopped the hydras head, instead of laying hands on the enabler of all the problem cards. For more than half a decade, we just dance around the 0cc shuffle, colorfix and manabase protectors, while bitching/moaning/banning every card (directly or indirectly) running on their back. TC, DRS, SDT, DTT, BS, Ponder, Delver, Angler, Leovold, and many, many more.

It has become a running joke to ban everything but Fetches + Brainstorm + Ponder

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He is right and everyone who states otherwise really is in denial. I spent way too much money on expedition fetch, but would be happy to see them go.

I agree. I thought Onslaught block was awesome!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...6e6de79a35.gif

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Originally Posted by H

Years ago, I asked this very question. You can go back and see what people felt the answer should be

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Yeah, I answered that its Fetches, Duals and the fact that the format is managed by a banned list compared to vintages restricted list.

While i still think its true as a factor to distinguish Legacy from Modern or Standard, it has become a significant crutch for Legacy by maintaining the cantrip shells dominance. We are already down to only ask how much dominance is bearable (which is kinda ridiculous by itself), jumping from

Fetchland + BS + Ponder + FoW + TC to
Fetchland + BS + Ponder + FoW + DTT to
Fetchland + BS + Ponder + FoW + SDT to
Fetchland + BS + Ponder + FoW + DRS to
Fetchland + BS + Ponder + FoW + newest abuser

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Originally Posted by Finn

I think that if fetch lands do get banned, it would shake up the format so fundamentally that all bets would be off. I really feel that it would be like 2005 all over again. And let me tell you. That was an amazing time.

-The Goblins deck was constructed by dozens of people. It was all very egalitarian. We were trying lots of angles with no map to guide us. Aether Vial with Goblin Ringleader came about as the best strategy for it over time. Nobody even knew which goblins were better than others.

-Landstill was the de facto control deck. The only reason this was true is because it was popular in Vintage at the time. The exact cards in it ranged widely. Again, we had No Idea what would work best.

-Combo was a virtual blank slate. There was Solidarity (High Tide), and IGGy (Ill-Gotten Gains-Tendrils) came out soon after. But it was never that good. This was before Empty the Vaults and Ad Nauseam made TES possible. And there was Belcher, but it killed its user all the time because the search and tutor cards were weak. Lots of old Extended decks were attempted too.

-There were a multitude of attempts at nonblue control decks, but none of them ever quite caught on.

-There were also a variety of strange decks that all used Survival of the Fittest long before Vengevine got it banned. Goblin Welder (my first design and entry into Legacy) and Tradewind Rider were the most popular.

-And then there was Threshold. This was the very first version of what we would call RUG now. It was the best of the early decks but it took us many months to even figure it out. There were just not a lot of people and we were trying to figure out the boundaries as we went.

It was fantastic. It would be my pleasure to get a second chance to experience that.

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Ironically A deck like zoo could become incredible in such a volatile environment, but is nigh unplayable without fetches to enable wild nacatl. Womp womp.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Yeah, I answered that its Fetches, Duals and the fact that the format is managed by a banned list compared to vintages restricted list.

While i still think its true as a factor to distinguish Legacy from Modern or Standard, it has become a significant crutch for Legacy by maintaining the cantrip shells dominance. We are already down to only ask how much dominance is bearable (which is kinda ridiculous by itself), jumping from

Fetchland + BS + Ponder + FoW + TC to
Fetchland + BS + Ponder + FoW + DTT to
Fetchland + BS + Ponder + FoW + SDT to
Fetchland + BS + Ponder + FoW + DRS to
Fetchland + BS + Ponder + FoW + newest abuser

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Then following from that, we should ask, what then should define Legacy?

I think the easy answer there would be "The Banned List," but of what character is that? Note, the Modern Banned List does have a character, even if it isn't exactly consistent. Does the Legacy one?

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Originally Posted by H

Then following from that, we should ask, what then should define Legacy?

I think the easy answer there would be "The Banned List," but of what character is that? Note, the Modern Banned List does have a character, even if it isn't exactly consistent. Does the Legacy one?

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I like the magic word "should". I don't think the Legacy ban list has any fundamental concept (unlike the Modern one), nor can I answer the question, which concept it "should" have.

To get closer to an answer, the banlist would need to get reviewed as a whole. We know that it makes little sense that certain cards are banned, but others remain legal

As someone who missed the glory days, I for one would appreciate the chance to mess around with a few of the old banned cards.

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Originally Posted by Andy_Prime

This seems like a feature to me. Not a problem.

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I wasn't implying it would be a bad thing, it would probably be the best way to systematically de-power a format that has become (in my opinion) far to efficient. Fetches would still have a home in modern/ vintage/ edh, it weakens basically every card that has been banned in the past 8 years(except misstep) so some could potentially come back. It weakens cantrips like brainstorm and ponder, any deck running more than 2 colors, and by association blues ability to access good efficient cards in other colors (which I think was a large contributor to format homogeneity since they could just poach the best cards from whatever color they wanted). The format in general lowers in power level, making more fringe strategies viable and increases format diversity. They would probably have to ban Griselbrand as well since I think reanimator/ snt strategies would probably fill the void in the de-powered format. This is of course all speculation but I think in general it would make it harder to use more colors which limits the power of the strongest decks which opens the format.

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Originally Posted by Barook

Sounds like Maro's design philosophy. Fuck good things when you can have a whole load of uninspired mediocrity at 3+ mana (while also admitting 1-2 years later that new design X was a mistake in hindsight).

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I think Maro takes the blame for something that has been developments fault. If you look at most of the mechanics since Theros, they have been mechanics that fundamentally don't work when the opponent has the removal to interact with them. Remember, it's their lead developer who said that the problem with Affinity in standard was that there were too many Shatters running around stopping all the cool things he wanted to do so only the one deck was viable.

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Originally Posted by Brael

I think Maro takes the blame for something that has been developments fault. If you look at most of the mechanics since Theros, they have been mechanics that fundamentally don't work when the opponent has the removal to interact with them. Remember, it's their lead developer who said that the problem with Affinity in standard was that there were too many Shatters running around stopping all the cool things he wanted to do so only the one deck was viable.

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The main thing i've taken away from development in playing a bunch of standard on Arena is that making wraths cost 5 and rampant growths cost 3 is really shitty for the game overall.

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Originally Posted by morgan_coke

The main thing i've taken away from development in playing a bunch of standard on Arena is that making wraths cost 5 and rampant growths cost 3 is really shitty for the game overall.

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Development is so backwards right now with their aversion to pushing spells that they would print
2WW
creature
flash
when this enters the battlefield destroy all creatures

But they would print
3WW
Sorcery
Destroy all creatures

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Originally Posted by Brael

I think Maro takes the blame for something that has been developments fault. If you look at most of the mechanics since Theros, they have been mechanics that fundamentally don't work when the opponent has the removal to interact with them. Remember, it's their lead developer who said that the problem with Affinity in standard was that there were too many Shatters running around stopping all the cool things he wanted to do so only the one deck was viable.

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Aren't mechanics design's jobs while development fine-tunes ideas, like adjusting power levels?

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Originally Posted by morgan_coke

The main thing i've taken away from development in playing a bunch of standard on Arena is that making wraths cost 5 and rampant growths cost 3 is really shitty for the game overall.

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People like powerful things. Overcosting everything for the sake of shitty balance is demetrical to the game. No wonder Standard has become such a shitshow over the years with overcosting everything, mana-dorks suddenly being considered OP until recently and development pushing their set sellers to stupid levels that they cause problems.

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Originally Posted by Barook

Aren't mechanics design's jobs while development fine-tunes ideas, like adjusting power levels?


People like powerful things. Overcosting everything for the sake of shitty balance is demetrical to the game. No wonder Standard has become such a shitshow over the years with overcosting everything, mana-dorks suddenly being considered OP until recently and development pushing their set sellers to stupid levels that they cause problems.

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I think it's their aversion to universal answers. The problem is that all threats are always universal.

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Originally Posted by Barook

Aren't mechanics design's jobs while development fine-tunes ideas, like adjusting power levels?

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The quantity and quality of answers in a set falls to development.