All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by Finn

I think that if fetch lands do get banned, it would shake up the format so fundamentally that all bets would be off. I really feel that it would be like 2005 all over again. And let me tell you. That was an amazing time.

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Although banning fetches would be a radical step --- maybe too radical for Wizards ever to take it --- I like where you and Lemnear have been going with this. Drawback-free dual lands and (practically) drawback-free fetches that can each find any of seven color pairs amount to a design mistake in the sense that they crowd out all mana-fixing strategies that have strategic trade-offs. Add to this chokehold on mana-fixing strategies the fact that they break Brainstorm, DRS, SDT, and Delve cards, and it's easy to see the grass being greener in a world where people play fastlands, checklands, shocklands, and so on. I don't recall Legacy as far back as 2005, but I was definitely lurking in 2008, and at that time the format felt like it had more room to breathe.

It would make sense for people to run casual tournaments with an alternate-Legacy banned list (fetches and Brainstorm banned, several things including DRS unbanned) to see whether that format has a substantially different feeling and whether it avoids being the same as Modern. (On both counts I think it would.)

Brain geniouses: "Terminus was the correct ban, not top"
Brain geniouses, later: "Wtf, why doesn't wizards print cheap wraths"

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The main thing i've taken away from development in playing a bunch of standard on Arena is that making wraths cost 5 and rampant growths cost 3 is really shitty for the game overall.

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Are we just ignoring the fact that UW control with 0 creatures is a tier 1 standard deck

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I think it's their aversion to universal answers. The problem is that all threats are always universal.

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Universal answers are dull because if they're overcosted compared to the threats then they're near-worthless and if they're undercosted compared to the threats then they're overpowered. The whole point about answers being narrow is that you have to actually put some thought into building your deck and you get paid off when your opponents' threats line up against your answers

Like, do you want them to print Counterspell in standard? Disallow already exists and is good enough when all the threats cost 3+ mana anyway
The last time Mana Leak was in standard it made delver tier 0

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

The last time Mana Leak was in standard it made delver tier 0

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I don't disagree with the rest of the stuff you're saying, but Mana Leak didn't do shit as far as U/W Delver was concerned. I'll quote a Sourcer Emeritus on this:

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

Anyone who complains Mana Leak is too powerful is an idiot. This includes Wizards. Oh a Standard deck has Hexproof creatures and we didn't realize Hexproof is about 10x better than Shroud so it's all undercosted. Standard has Git Probe, Thought Scour, and Ponder. Standard has equipment for the hexproof creatures to carry. Standard has a free burn spell and a black spell that can be played by any color. Oh standard also has a free counterspell and Delver. Standard also has a flash creature that allows all these spells to be replayed. Standard also has a 3/4 flyer with flash that negates removal blinks a creature (including Snapcaster) and allows for the most annoying combat tricks in recent memory. Did I mention all these cards are in the same deck, oh and it runs Delver, of course. Oh by the way the problem with Standard right now is Mana Leak. Seriously about the least aware thing Wizards has ever said IMO.

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Originally Posted by Brainstorm Ape

I don't disagree with the rest of the stuff you're saying, but Mana Leak didn't do shit as far as U/W Delver was concerned. I'll quote a Sourcer Emeritus on this:

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I agree that 'Leak made X deck tier 0' was probably a bit hyperbolic but the card was definitely a significant part of what made blue decks dominant in that period
Remember that this was a format without Daze, Wasteland, etc
The next best tempo card was Vapor Snag (which was still played 4x)
Without Leak it would have been much more viable to beat Delver + Snap by going over the top of it, but instead the only reasonable option was playing a deck with 8 Carnophages

Edit: You also have to be a little bit careful with rants like that because they start to lose meaning when you remove them from the context of what the format actually looks like:

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Anyone who complains Deathrite Shaman is too powerful is an idiot. This includes Wizards. Oh a Legacydeck has Hexproof 3/1 Merfolk creatures and we didn't realize Progenitus is about 10x better than Shroud so it's undercosted. Legacy has Git Probe, Brainstorm, and Ponder. Legacy has equipment for the hexproof creatures to carry. Legacyhas a free burn spell that deals 4 damage and a black spell that makes the opponent discard 2 random cards for 2 mana. Oh Legacy also has a free counterspell and Delver. Legacy also has a flash wrath for 1 mana that neuters recursion. Legacy also has a 3/3 Elf that shuts down half your opponent's deck and provides value when you remove it. Oh by the way the problem with Legacy right now is Deathrite Shaman. Seriously about the least aware thing Wizards has ever said IMO.

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^ Some people in this thread have almost made this argument unironically but I think most others would agree it's a pretty unconvincing way of trying to explain whether a card is too good or not

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

^ Some people in this thread have almost made this argument unironically but I think most others would agree it's a pretty unconvincing way of trying to explain whether a card is too good or not

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Madlibs don't work when the outcome is word salad.

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Originally Posted by Finn

I think that if fetch lands do get banned, it would shake up the format so fundamentally that all bets would be off. I really feel that it would be like 2005 all over again. And let me tell you. That was an amazing time.

-The Goblins deck was constructed by dozens of people. It was all very egalitarian. We were trying lots of angles with no map to guide us. Aether Vial with Goblin Ringleader came about as the best strategy for it over time. Nobody even knew which goblins were better than others.

-Landstill was the de facto control deck. The only reason this was true is because it was popular in Vintage at the time. The exact cards in it ranged widely. Again, we had No Idea what would work best.

-Combo was a virtual blank slate. There was Solidarity (High Tide), and IGGy (Ill-Gotten Gains-Tendrils) came out soon after. But it was never that good. This was before Empty the Vaults and Ad Nauseam made TES possible. And there was Belcher, but it killed its user all the time because the search and tutor cards were weak. Lots of old Extended decks were attempted too.

-There were a multitude of attempts at nonblue control decks, but none of them ever quite caught on.

-There were also a variety of strange decks that all used Survival of the Fittest long before Vengevine got it banned. Goblin Welder (my first design and entry into Legacy) and Tradewind Rider were the most popular.

-And then there was Threshold. This was the very first version of what we would call RUG now. It was the best of the early decks but it took us many months to even figure it out. There were just not a lot of people and we were trying to figure out the boundaries as we went.

It was fantastic. It would be my pleasure to get a second chance to experience that.

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This was a fantastic time. Many of the current legacy players probably don't remember this time though. The lack of fetch lands limited a players ability to go crazy with colors and it helped keep color identity in check.

Maybe the compromise here is that legacy gets duals but loses fetch lands. Go play modern if you want to spend half of the match shuffling decks.

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Originally Posted by apple713

Go play modern if you want to spend half of the match shuffling decks.

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LOL... Or maybe you should go play Standard? Fetch lands aren't going anywhere, keep dreaming.

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Originally Posted by Thresh84

LOL... Or maybe you should go play Standard? Fetch lands aren't going anywhere, keep dreaming.

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Last week 4 people told me that about DRS.

Removing fetches wouldn't do much. You would still have Ponder and Preordain to dig into mana fixing. On top of that, I bet Ancient Stirrings would start seeing a lot of play. All banning fetches would do is eliminate the stupid one off land to splash a color. In exchange, I bet it would massively spike deck prices because everyone would need to be running 12 abu duals, and probably mox diamond.

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Originally Posted by Brael

Removing duals wouldn't do much. You would still have Ponder and Preordain to dig into mana fixing. On top of that, I bet Ancient Stirrings would start seeing a lot of play. All banning fetches would do is eliminate the stupid one off land to splash a color. In exchange, I bet it would massively spike deck prices because everyone would need to be running 12 abu duals, and probably mox diamond.

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removing the 1 off land to splash a color is HUGE. That means that you are playing 1 less color and dont get the benefits. Blue is usually that splash and brainstorm is a huge offender of easily being splashed. In addition to fetch lands being banned, DRS is practically worthless because there are not tons of lands in the graveyard. DRS problem solved as a side effect.

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Originally Posted by apple713

removing the 1 off land to splash a color is HUGE. That means that you are playing 1 less color and dont get the benefits. Blue is usually that splash and brainstorm is a huge offender of easily being splashed. In addition to fetch lands being banned, DRS is practically worthless because there are not tons of lands in the graveyard. DRS problem solved as a side effect.

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I would love to see the stupid 1 land splash eliminated, but that's a problem in every format where fetches are legal. It's just a side effect of what the lands do.

In the end, even if all you say were accurate I still think that removing fetches would be a negative for the format because of the effect it would have on deck prices. Like it or not, fetches are responsible for knocking off $1000 or more from the cost of most decks in the format. Imagine what would happen if every 3 color deck suddenly needed 12 abu dual lands in addition to some other expensive mana fixing like Mox Diamonds. If it didn't outright kill the format it would severely hinder getting anyone new into the format, if for no other reason than requiring 16 RL cards in every single deck would place a large physical limitation on how many people could play the game.

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Originally Posted by Brael

I would love to see the stupid 1 land splash eliminated, but that's a problem in every format where fetches are legal. It's just a side effect of what the lands do.

In the end, even if all you say were accurate I still think that removing fetches would be a negative for the format because of the effect it would have on deck prices. Like it or not, fetches are responsible for knocking off $1000 or more from the cost of most decks in the format. Imagine what would happen if every 3 color deck suddenly needed 12 abu dual lands in addition to some other expensive mana fixing like Mox Diamonds. If it didn't outright kill the format it would severely hinder getting anyone new into the format, if for no other reason than requiring 16 RL cards in every single deck would place a large physical limitation on how many people could play the game.

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I think i will still build my 4c deck around City of Brass, Reflecting Pool, Grand Coliseum and Mana Confluence then i will add a couple of dual lands to avoid mana screw myself.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

You however wont get WotC and the playerbase behind that idea because they would all hyperbole into "OMG! EVERY DECK NOW NEEDS 20 DUALS! 8000$ decks!"

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Originally Posted by Brael

In exchange, I bet it would massively spike deck prices because everyone would need to be running 12 abu duals, and probably mox diamond.

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Close enough, I guess. :p

In all honest, starting your deck with 12 ABU duals sounds like a fine way to get blown out by Blood Moon or Back to Basics. I think this design is so easily punished, that no one would consider it worth investing.

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Originally Posted by Brael

Removing fetches wouldn't do much. You would still have Ponder and Preordain to dig into mana fixing. On top of that, I bet Ancient Stirrings would start seeing a lot of play. All banning fetches would do is eliminate the stupid one off land to splash a color. In exchange, I bet it would massively spike deck prices because everyone would need to be running 12 abu duals, and probably mox diamond.

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Running 12 duals leaves you just as vulnerable (if not more) to the hate strategies that were preying on the 4c decks before the banning, on top of that you don't have the ability to fetch to fix your mana (or get that one-of basic), nor do you have a deathrite to utilize fetches/wastes in the graveyard. On top of this you are running less colors so your deck is more constrained as to what it can run to combat this. So at the very least multicolored decks get weaker while the hate strategies, which are often monocolored, aren't nearly as effected. Ponder and preordain will help yes, but that is like fetching under an Aven Mindcensor, hoping you get the right land (or any land at all). Having stirrings see more play would mean that the format would be opening up, which would be a good thing. People would probably go for City of Brass and Mana Confluence before trying to use Mox Diamond in a non loam deck, likewise with Chrome Mox and combo, which still plays into the strategies that punish greedy mana bases. Filter lands become much more valuable since fixing becomes more of a luxury. I would argue that the format would change inexplicably due to the nature of not having the mana you want as readily as it has been, and the concessions that would be needed to do that.

Is the way I view you guys talking about fetches getting banned the same way to guys view me when I say brainstorm is broken and needs a ban? The whole this is a waste of time thing?

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Is the way I view you guys talking about fetches getting banned the same way to guys view me when I say brainstorm is broken and needs a ban?

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I don't think so, because you're the one who wants to ban the Vengevine instead of the Survival. Metaphorically speaking.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I don't think so, because you're the one who wants to ban the Vengevine instead of the Survival. Metaphorically speaking.

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I should've elaborated. The fact that it won't ever happen is more what I mean

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

Like, do you want them to print Counterspell in standard?

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Yes, if for no other reason than to introduce it into Modern.

But if they were particularly worried about its power level, then bring back Cavern of Souls (which needs a reprint anyway) at the same time to weaken it. Problem solved!

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Disallow already exists and is good enough when all the threats cost 3+ mana anyway
The last time Mana Leak was in standard it made delver tier 0

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No it didn't.

First, Delver wasn't Tier 0, unless you want to claim decks like Monoblack Devotion and Junk Siege Rhino were Tier 0. It was great, but no more so than is typical for the top deck in Standard; we're not talking Affinity or Caw-Blade levels here (those were actual Tier 0 decks). Also, as Wizards of the Coast themselves observed, Delver's win rate was actually quite reasonable; its dominance of the metagame came from popularity, not strength. Heck, the fact people clearly enjoyed playing the deck as shown by how many people were playing it, and the fact that it was the "highest ever" number of people playing Standard at the time, there's a strong argument that far from being a bad thing, Delver-esque decks should be a big force in Standard.

But even ignoring all of that and accepting Delver as too powerful, to blame Mana Leak for that is silly. How about possibly blaming the namesake for the deck and the fact it co-existed with Ponder? Or Snapcaster Mage, which was so powerful they had to power down Instants and Sorceries in RTR block to compensate, even while there was no Mana Leak? Or any of the other cards that were critical to that deck's success?

Heck, Mana Leak wasn't even an automatic 4-of, some Delver decks played 3 copies instead! (example here, and note this was before Cavern of Souls was printed so don't blame that). Sure, most of them ran the full set, but compare that to the various cards that were automatic 4-ofs. So we're supposed to believe that the card that put the deck over the top was the one that wasn't even always a 4-of rather than the various cards that were always 4-ofs?

And let's not forget that Mana Leak had been in multiple Standards before this point without being a problem. If a card has been in multiple Standards without breaking anything, and then a new overpowered deck emerges that plays that card... maybe the more likely explanation is that it's the new cards that are the problem, not the old one?

Citing Delver as a reason that Mana Leak should not return to Standard is downright silly.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Is the way I view you guys talking about fetches getting banned the same way to guys view me when I say brainstorm is broken and needs a ban? The whole this is a waste of time thing?

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Yep, both points are incredibly boring to the rest of us.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Close enough, I guess. :p

In all honest, starting your deck with 12 ABU duals sounds like a fine way to get blown out by Blood Moon or Back to Basics. I think this design is so easily punished, that no one would consider it worth investing.

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Those strategies would certainly get more powerful than they already are, but that's also why I included Mox Diamond in the example. That goes a long way towards getting around those locks.

Edit: I think you would also see Ash Barrens suddenly become very playable.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

I should've elaborated. The fact that it won't ever happen is more what I mean

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Pardon me then. Yeah, we waste our time with either

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Originally Posted by Brael

I would love to see the stupid 1 land splash eliminated, but that's a problem in every format where fetches are legal. It's just a side effect of what the lands do.

In the end, even if all you say were accurate I still think that removing fetches would be a negative for the format because of the effect it would have on deck prices. Like it or not, fetches are responsible for knocking off $1000 or more from the cost of most decks in the format. Imagine what would happen if every 3 color deck suddenly needed 12 abu dual lands in addition to some other expensive mana fixing like Mox Diamonds. If it didn't outright kill the format it would severely hinder getting anyone new into the format, if for no other reason than requiring 16 RL cards in every single deck would place a large physical limitation on how many people could play the game.

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the obvious result that would occur is that people wouldnt play 3 color decks because you would sacrifice too much consistency. Even with shock lands its still not a great option.

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Originally Posted by apple713

the obvious result that would occur is that people wouldnt play 3 color decks because you would sacrifice too much consistency. Even with shock lands its still not a great option.

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And just so we are clear. That is a good result. More colors comes at a price.

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Originally Posted by apple713

the obvious result that would occur is that people wouldnt play 3 color decks because you would sacrifice too much consistency. Even with shock lands its still not a great option.

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Innistrad-RTR Standard needed only the shocklands and checklands together to allow for extremely consistent 3-mana manbases.

To be fair, Legacy has substantially better anti-nonbasic land cards than that Standard format had (Burning Earth was actually pretty decent, but only came in towards the end of the format). Still, lack of fetchlands doesn't mean a lack of consistency for 3-color decks.

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Originally Posted by Finn

And just so we are clear. That is a good result. More colors comes at a price.

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Agreed. More colors should come at a considerable price and fetch lands make that price too cheap.

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

Innistrad-RTR Standard needed only the shocklands and checklands together to allow for extremely consistent 3-mana manbases.

To be fair, Legacy has substantially better anti-nonbasic land cards than that Standard format had (Burning Earth was actually pretty decent, but only came in towards the end of the format). Still, lack of fetchlands doesn't mean a lack of consistency for 3-color decks.

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You forgot one of the most important considerations. Legacy games are significantly faster than standard games. Generally this means that you need access to all the colors in the first 1-2 turns to be able to consistently keep hands. In standard you have alot more leeway in keeping hands because you don't have to worry about the game ending on turn 3.

If you look back on the championship decks from before onslaught fetches were printed in 2002, the existence of 4 and 5 color decks was non-existent. There was one exception. The list is below for reference for you to see how janky the manabase had to be to effectively run 5 colors. Even then there were so few cards that had white or red that it was effectively a 3 color deck. There were only 5 cards including the sideboard that were white or red. This was a standard at the time. If you want to compare it to a time with shock lands, look at the link here CHAMPS 2006 METAGAME BREAKDOWN. Even then only 3 color decks existed and there were considerable draw backs. Now days you can just play 5 colors and dont have to think twice about the manabase. Handful of fetches, handful of duals, few basics and done... No drawbacks.

Cali Nightmare

Creatures (24)
4*Birds of Paradise
1*Cloudchaser Eagle
1*Man-o'-War
2*Nekrataal
1*Orcish Settlers
2*Spike Feeder
1*Spike Weaver
1*Spirit of the Night
1*Thrull Surgeon
1*Tradewind Rider
2*Uktabi Orangutan
1*Verdant Force
4*Wall of Blossoms
2*Wall of Roots

Sorceries (4)
2*Firestorm
2*Lobotomy

Enchantments (8)
4*Recurring Nightmare
4*Survival of the Fittest

Artifacts (2)
2*Scroll Rack

Lands (22)
3*City of Brass
8*Forest
1*Gemstone Mine
2*Karplusan Forest
2*Reflecting Pool
1*Swamp
2*Underground River
2*Undiscovered Paradise
1*Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard (15)
4*Boil
2*Dread of Night
3*Emerald Charm
1*Hall of Gemstone
2*Phyrexian Furnace
2*Pyroblast
1*Staunch Defenders

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Originally Posted by apple713

the obvious result that would occur is that people wouldnt play 3 color decks because you would sacrifice too much consistency. Even with shock lands its still not a great option.

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So the question is, in a format where most decks need to play blue as one color (and this would still be the case without fetches), does two colors create more diversity than three colors presents? I think the answer to that is no.

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

Innistrad-RTR Standard needed only the shocklands and checklands together to allow for extremely consistent 3-mana manbases.

To be fair, Legacy has substantially better anti-nonbasic land cards than that Standard format had (Burning Earth was actually pretty decent, but only came in towards the end of the format). Still, lack of fetchlands doesn't mean a lack of consistency for 3-color decks.

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The biggest difference is that functional standard decks require more along the lines of 24 lands, which allowed 16 of each color, while the curves in legacy are such that fewer lands need to be played. A 20 land deck that plays 12 duals/8 checks only has around 14/14/12 colored sources. When you consider that wasteland is a thing, that basically means that double mana cost cards, even in your primary color become huge liabilities.

On the surface that might sound great, everyone plays fewer colors. In practice, what it means is that a card like Teferi becomes far more playable than JTMS, or a card like Leovold is easier to cast than True Name Nemesis, or Baleful Strix looks better than Hymn. Which means that what happens is that rather than people being able to play the deep color cards, they consolidate on the much lower number of gold cards in the format, and multicolor goodstuff reigns supreme.

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Originally Posted by apple713

If you look back on the championship decks from before onslaught fetches were printed in 2002, the existence of 4 and 5 color decks was non-existent. There was one exception. The list is below for reference for you to see how janky the manabase had to be to effectively run 5 colors. Even then there were so few cards that had white or red that it was effectively a 3 color deck. There were only 5 cards including the sideboard that were white or red. This was a standard at the time. If you want to compare it to a time with shock lands, look at the link here CHAMPS 2006 METAGAME BREAKDOWN. Even then only 3 color decks existed and there were considerable draw backs.

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I'm not sure how relevant any of this is? You're appealing to Standard data. What relevance does that have for Legacy? Granted, this is in response to my remark about Innistrad-RTR Standard, but those decks generally topped out at 3 colors (not going into 4 or 5). And the issue of fetchlands is rather irrelevant in Standard unless they're combined with fetchable dual lands (as was the case, quite unfortunately, in Khans-Battle Standard). Without fetchable duals, the fetchlands are about on par with the painlands.

Though for the record, something to remember about Standard in 2002 and earlier (and in fact, even for a while afterwards) was that Wizards of the Coast was reluctant to print full sets of dual lands, preferring to only keep it in the allied colors, Invasion block's enemy painlands excepted. This made three colors trickier because you lacked dual lands for at least one (or possibly two) of the color combinations in them (example: Suppose you wanted a UWB deck. You'd have access to UW and UB dual lands typically, but not WB. Similarly, UWR would only have UW, not UR or WR). It was later on that they started making sure enemy colors had access to the same quality of mana fixing as the allied colors, which allowed for three color decks to emerge more frequently in Standard.

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Now days you can just play 5 colors and dont have to think twice about the manabase. Handful of fetches, handful of duals, few basics and done... No drawbacks.

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How so? What Legacy decks run 5 colors?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Close enough, I guess. :p

In all honest, starting your deck with 12 ABU duals sounds like a fine way to get blown out by Blood Moon or Back to Basics. I think this design is so easily punished, that no one would consider it worth investing.

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Prismatic Omen muthafucka. Or crop rotation. Green is the color fixing option now. Both have real opportunity costs, but that's as it should be.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Both have real opportunity costs, but that's as it should be.

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Preach!

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

How so? What Legacy decks run 5 colors?

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Dredge.
Reanimator.
:laugh:

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

How so? What Legacy decks run 5 colors?

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Thats not the point. The point is that it could be done effortlessly. That also means that it became significantly easier to make 3 color decks. Even if there arn't many 5 color decks, there are several 4 color decks. One of those 4 color decks was a contributing factor to the recent banning decision.

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Originally Posted by apple713

Thats not the point. The point is that it could be done effortlessly.

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If it "could" be done so effortlessly on the basis of fetchlands+dual lands, then why isn't it being done? Perhaps the answer is that it can't be done "effortlessly" with the fetchlands and dual lands? Certainly, if it could be, one is left wondering why the Humans deck in Modern was only able to become a real thing after it got enough rainbow lands, because by your assertion the deck could've done its thing solely on the fetchlands and shocklands.

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That also means that it became significantly easier to make 3 color decks. Even if there arn't many 5 color decks, there are several 4 color decks. One of those 4 color decks was a contributing factor to the recent banning decision.

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What 4-color decks were able to maintain their manabase solely on the basis of fetchlands and dual lands, i.e. without the benefit of Deathrite Shaman or some other mana-fixing creature?

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

If it "could" be done so effortlessly on the basis of fetchlands+dual lands, then why isn't it being done? Perhaps the answer is that it can't be done "effortlessly" with the fetchlands and dual lands? Certainly, if it could be, one is left wondering why the Humans deck in Modern was only able to become a real thing after it got enough rainbow lands, because by your assertion the deck could've done its thing solely on the fetchlands and shocklands.

What 4-color decks were able to maintain their manabase solely on the basis of fetchlands and dual lands, i.e. without the benefit of Deathrite Shaman or some other mana-fixing creature?

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4 color loam because of diamonds. But really we haven't had a deck like that I can think of after like the old 4 color counter balance decks that splashed red and green for like Ancient grudge and I believe like Fire spout? I think they also maybe played Goyf. That's like when I first started playing magic in general though so I may be mistaken

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

If it "could" be done so effortlessly on the basis of fetchlands+dual lands, then why isn't it being done? Perhaps the answer is that it can't be done "effortlessly" with the fetchlands and dual lands? Certainly, if it could be, one is left wondering why the Humans deck in Modern was only able to become a real thing after it got enough rainbow lands, because by your assertion the deck could've done its thing solely on the fetchlands and shocklands.

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Except hatebears was always a thing and you're forgetting the other card printed at the same time that put them over the top on "humans matter" which was kite sale freebooter.

Hatebears, a well known 5 color deck

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Originally Posted by apple713

Thats not the point. The point is that it could be done effortlessly. That also means that it became significantly easier to make 3 color decks. Even if there arn't many 5 color decks, there are several 4 color decks. One of those 4 color decks was a contributing factor to the recent banning decision.

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Name the plentheora of 4-Color decks, that are able to run on solely Duals+Fetches (No Dorks, Artifacts etc), especially in the face of Wasteland.

It isn't even close to "effortlessly" for 4c let alone 5c.

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Originally Posted by apple713

Thats not the point. The point is that it could be done effortlessly. That also means that it became significantly easier to make 3 color decks. Even if there arn't many 5 color decks, there are several 4 color decks. One of those 4 color decks was a contributing factor to the recent banning decision.

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And now a critical fixing tool that provided such access to colors was banned, so is it really necessary that on week 1 of the format we have to go nuts and resume the campaign for banning fetches?

There are way too many posts in the last 1-2 pages saying that splashing should be hard (whatever that means). None of these posts provide any justification, as though everybody should just take it for granted that multicolor decks are some kind of moral atrocity. If you aren't clear on what kind of games/decks you want and why then you deserve to be ignored

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On the surface that might sound great, everyone plays fewer colors. In practice, what it means is that a card like Teferi becomes far more playable than JTMS, or a card like Leovold is easier to cast than True Name Nemesis, or Baleful Strix looks better than Hymn. Which means that what happens is that rather than people being able to play the deep color cards, they consolidate on the much lower number of gold cards in the format, and multicolor goodstuff reigns supreme.

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This is just wrong I'm pretty sure
I agree with the general principle (that against decks with Wasteland you want to fetch basics so in a 2-color UB deck you want Island-Swamp. Therefore it might be easier to cast a spell that costs UB than one that costs UU or BB)
I just don't think it's a serious consideration for any of the examples you gave. I'm pretty sure that in every Jace deck (or at least any Jace deck that would also consider playing Teferi) getting to 4 mana without having 2 blue sources is literally impossible. (Hymn vs Strix maybe, but I think the control decks preferred to max out on Strix because it's a stronger card)

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

If it "could" be done so effortlessly on the basis of fetchlands+dual lands, then why isn't it being done? Perhaps the answer is that it can't be done "effortlessly" with the fetchlands and dual lands? Certainly, if it could be, one is left wondering why the Humans deck in Modern was only able to become a real thing after it got enough rainbow lands, because by your assertion the deck could've done its thing solely on the fetchlands and shocklands.

What 4-color decks were able to maintain their manabase solely on the basis of fetchlands and dual lands, i.e. without the benefit of Deathrite Shaman or some other mana-fixing creature?

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It is not being done because all 5 colors rarely contribute to a shared goal. Each color added has diminishing returns. For example, What are you going to add to your deck in the 5the color that you dont already have access to in the other 4 colors?

How about you build a deck with 5 colors under the assumption that you will always have access to the right colors of mana. Then ill build a mana base for you with duals and fetchlands.

Also, i think aluren is 4 colors and there used to be a 5 color zoo deck.

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Originally Posted by apple713

How about you build a deck with 5 colors under the assumption that you will always have access to the right colors of mana. Then ill build a mana base for you with duals and fetchlands.

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// 40 Hauptdeck
// 2 Artifact
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

// 11 Creature
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Monastery Mentor
1 Tombstalker

// 15 Instant
4 Brainstorm
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
1 Kolaghan's Command

// 4 Planeswalker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

// 8 Sorcery
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Council's Judgment
4 Ponder