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Aluren only plays 1 White or Red dual land for the Recruiters, the rest of the deck is BUG (sometimes there are 1 or 2 white hatebears in the SB)Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
The most obvious example is that all the 4 colour control decks of the last format would have played Swords to Plowshares instead of Fatal Push if playing 5 colours was totally free (and they even had DRS)
:u::u:, :w::w:, :r::r:, :b::b:, plenty of 3cc+ spells, no acceration, no fix, 20 land slotsQuote:
Originally Posted by MorphBerlin
Sounds reasonable, but lacks the 1-off Glissa the Traitor for the obligatory double green cost
I am not the one who made the absurd claims that 4 and 5c Decks are constructed "effortlessly" just with duals and fetches. He said give him a deck and he will construct a mana base, I am looking forwad to seeing it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
3 Colors is the limit if you don't have additional help and want to survive 1 Wasteland.
I am sure we both are aware that the claim was made more alongside the decks we have seen in the past, which ran 1-2 light splashes for certain main- & sideboard techs.Quote:
Originally Posted by MorphBerlin
Even DRS decks rarely used green mana aside casting Leovold as DRS was mostly cast off U.Sea and the lifegain rarely needed. Old Shardless decks ran a white splash for SB hatebears; Miracles ran red for Blood Moons; OmniTell black for Discard; etc.
What you did here was just throwing in 1-offs and 2-offs with prohibitive high cmc and color requirements just to ridicule Apples point, that color combos like UWGrb for example would be actually managable with Fetches, duals, cantrips and maybe even Noble Hierarch.
You could have just picked a generic 4c list replacing DRS' with Cruel/Violent Ultimatum for the same effect of pointing to the limits of colorfixing
"5c could be run effortlessly" means that fetches + duals could easily support whatever you'd like to i guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Which is likely to be untrue because playing 4 hymns alongside 2 more colors is already pushing to the limit
Hey, it was said as "could be run" not "could actually win a game versus any sort of mana denial."Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctalor
In this manner, the statement is right, it is a legal method of constructing a Legacy deck. The mana base could be constructed effortlessly, but effort doesn't imply competence or success. So, rightfully, the statement gives us absolutely no meaningful content, while appearing to. All in all, par for the course of this thread.
But hey, maybe your metagame is poor people who don't own playable cards or people who's Standard deck just rotated so they'll play "Legacy," or maybe people from a bizarre realm where Wasteland was never actually printed, or perhaps even a gentleman's club where uncouth things such as mana denial are not tolerated.
"You can make a reservation, you just can't hold the reservation." - Jerry Seinfeld
You can make 5 colors, you just can't hold onto five colors. Wasteland and Blood Moon have far too much to say about that. Also, today, I'm going deep on Seinfeld quotes. If you make a 5-color soup, be prepared for "No soup for you!"
Back when Dig Through Time was legal, I was able to absolutely crush with 4 color Omni. Why? Because all three of my splashes were "free". You could play basically mono blue, with a discard splash, and 2 more splashes out of the board for Mentor and Pyroblast/Sudden Shock. This was 100% facilitated by the fact I could throw in 1 Tundra but have 10 copies of it after fetches.
Everybody knows banning DRS and fetches won't do anything to the best five-color deck ever because that deck doesn't need any of them.
I'm talking, of course, about All Spells.
The claim was made in an absurd generalistic way which made it totally hyperbolic to make it seem like fetchlands are the root of all evil and color restrictions are nonexistant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I just gave an equally hyperbolic example of a deck full of legacy staples that exactly proves how false the statment was. 4+c color manabase cannot be done effortlessly, you have to minimize the splash in number of cards and amout of colored mana symbols, add mana dorks/artifacts etc. So you see you have to make an effort to play more than 3 colors because it puts constraints on your deckbuilding. Which, again, proves how redicilous and untrue the claims on the last couple of pages have become... mainly made by 5 people telling each other how bad fetchlands are in circular logic.
I am well aware that the claim was too generalistic in the first place, but I think it was kinda unfitting to use a bunch of prohibitive costed cards to adress the underlying point of how easy and elegant splashes are in Legacy, if you just need to throw in a single Tropical into your UW manabase to suddenly have a virtual 9+ green lands. Of course this doesn't work if you plan to to cast some :g::g: spells against Wasteland, but that sure wasn't the point of Apple. I am certain his point was, that only Fetches allow you to get reliable access to off-colors with that little effortQuote:
Originally Posted by MorphBerlin
So Dice, can we finally move Shortcake to its rightful DTB home?
Only if they unbanned Top. Seriously, I was building that when top ban happened. I thought it was a great deck. Is there something that makes it work as well as top did?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
I may be a week late but..
The absolute madmen!
This is interesting as I literally entered legacy right around when DRS was printed, so I've never been in a format where it wasn't the best T1 fair play this side of Mongoose or so. Even then, Mongoose was still being used a bit for a couple years.
Glad to see that Combo has to rely on Discard/Hand-Knowledge/Skill a bit more too. Having the constant Probes really annoyed me the last time I was active. It's not that it was so oppressive; it was that it annihilates the point of it being a card game/skill game. It deflated the tension to nothing but a math/logic problem. Cabal Therapy sees a huge win in this, in some sense, because it becomes a card that either requires skill to use, multiple activations, or other discard (or surgical..)
Super interesting, to the point I may have to start cobbling something together again. This is what made Extended and to a lesser degree Standard interesting. The shake-ups of a single card or two that were important changing makes a huge wave through deck construction.
The amount of decks this touches is insane due to DRS's penetration:
* DGA, Mav, Junk, Italia
* BUG, Grixis, 4c Bant, Esper midrange
* BUG, Grixis, 4c Delver
* Loam decks!
* Grave decks can change what they were doing a bit!
The ban-announcement times are, to me, the most exciting times to go to your store; because the game hasn't figured out the search space yet, so you get to see all the wonky shit that people will actually bring rather than just net-decks. It's almost like playing 15 years ago or in casual or w/e, because it is so warped. I realize how stupid this sounds; but Goblins could be a thing without DRS lol. I know.. I know.. SFM. But still; this is a brave new world.
Even if you're upset, this is an amazing shake-up. I think, and yah I'm attempting to look 12 months down the road; but I would almost bet that Thalia becomes oppressive enough to approach the axe in 12 months. We might even start seeing Mox->Thalias coming out. Hell.. I think I know what I'm building if I can get my ass to the local tournies this week :D
I think the only lame thing is that they didn't give us a prisoner exchange. This would've be a perfect time to unban Mind Twist, since you'd be unable to accelerate it as easily.
EDIT:
Does this make Goyf better?!
MY BRAIN AAAGGHHGHHGH!
This is an exciting time to be a legacy player
EDIT2:
Please realize that this is coming from someone who has probably stuck DRS in a couple dozen different decks in the last 7 years or whatever. I'm excited in the same way I was when I sold off my Lilianas. The brew possibilities now that the head of a snake has been chopped off are immense.
I think my favorite winner is that fair decks that use the graveyard as an engine (not just delve and loam) don't feel completely awful. Like I don't feel like a moron for trying out stone blade with intuition for therapy and souls anymore
See your mana base below. Although I think you should probably run more than just 20 lands, the deck plays pretty well. I opted for a forest and swamp as basics for abrupt decay under blood moon conditions. If blood moon isn't expected in your meta you can adjust those to maybe an island or plains.Quote:
Originally Posted by MorphBerlin
// 60 Maindeck
// 2 Artifact
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
// 11 Creature
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Monastery Mentor
1 Tombstalker
// 15 Instant
4 Brainstorm
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
1 Kolaghan's Command
// 20 Land
2 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
1 Plateau
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
// 4 Planeswalker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
// 8 Sorcery
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Council's Judgment
4 Ponder
For the record, the guy is right: 5c manabases are perfectly doable with the Legacy cardpool, but they aren't being kept down by losing Deathrite, they're being kept down by mana denial. If you told me I wouldn't play against any Wasteland/Blood Moon/Stifle decks I could easily play five colors. In fact, I have at various meaningless weeklies just for shits and giggles. I played 5c Cascadw with BBE/Stoneforge/Shardless/Bob, I played Czech Pile splashing for Stoneforge, I played Miracles with Lim-Duls Vault and Sylvan Library. All those decks functioned fine when you weren't under mana disruption.
if anything, it's the best argument for never banning Wasteland in the format: it's the only thing keeping madmen like me honest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
So this is your "effortlessly" built manabase that "runs pretty well" as in loses 5/10 games to a single wastelands and another 4/10 because it can't cast the right spells at the right time all while using cantrips for nothing esle but finding the right lands? You are making my argument for me
Also running the legacy staples double Badland, Scrubland, Plateau, Forest, Swamp in a 8 Cantrip deck... Man, if this is how you build your legacy decks I hope you are in your weeklys for the beer after Round 1 in the 0-X bracket.
Most played cards in Legacy:Quote:
Originally Posted by HammerAndSickled
[...]
Wasteland: 40%
[...]
Rishadan Port: 6%
So while it could be done with the legacy card pool it cannot be done in the legacy metagame which is what are talking about here. What's the point of making absurd claims ignoring any established facts about the metagame?
"We should ban Fetchlands cause 5c manabase are theoreticaly doable" Yeah, great argument...
I am quite sure this wasn't the point of the fetchland discussion in the first placeQuote:
Originally Posted by MorphBerlin
Correct, not at all. To summarize, the reason for a fetchland ban:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
1) Nearly cost-free shuffling effect, making Brainstorm, Sensei's Divning Top (et al) too good
2) Nearly cost-free graveyard filling, making Deathrite Shaman (and the delve mechanic) too good. See: Treasure Cruise, Dig through Time
3) Time constraints on tournaments would be relieved due to less frequent shuffling
4) Banning fetches would make other dual-land options viable
Alternatively, banning fetches:
1) Makes Brainstorm and Sensei's Divning Top fair, forcing either ETB-tapped lands (Terramorphic Expanse) or deck slots dedicated to shuffling (ie Stoneforge Mystic) Still good, but not too good. Free shuffle effects break these cards in half.
2) Makes Deathrite Shaman unreliable as a mana-source, relegating it closer to Scavenging Ooze in terms of a graveyard hate option
3) Makes Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time more fair, although it could be speculated that even without fetches they may be too good.
4) Each round in a legacy tournament would free up around 10 minutes (conservatively) due to both players shuffling less, on average. (Number is purely speculation, as we haven't seen a fetchless format. Have we seen decks without fetches face off together? Do rounds go faster?)
Paying 1 life is almost insignificant as a cost to fixing mana. We've all seen the percentages for 'deck thinning' when it comes to fetclands, and while it does thin your deck a non-zero amount, it isn't a significant number. In regards to not drawing lands again post-fetch, it is also not significant enough to deter from using 8-10 fetchlands in a deck. The payoff for perfect mana overwhelmingly supersedes the minor opportunity cost of using a fetch/dual mana-base. Most, if not all, users on this forum recognize that 5 colors is possible, but not perfect, even with a fetch/dual base. The opportunity cost goes up when outside threats (Wasteland, Blood Moon) endanger the perfect mana. Alternative methods of fixing mana costs deck slots (Birds, Noble, DRS, even jank like Prismatic Omen and Utopia Sprawl.) Deathrite removed the opportunity cost by unbalancing it; it was also a threat.
Hope that helps. I tried to put them in order of relevance. I know I didn't nail down everything, but that seems to be the general direction of the ban-fetch argument.
All,
My desire to have all fetch lands banned remains. That is all.
-Peace
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramanujan
Seconded. But, it's not going to happen because Fetch+Dual is just as much a "pillar" of legacy as Brainstorm is. So, even if it meets all possible metrics for banning (which Aaron Forsythe has admitted brainstorm does) it won't be banned.Quote:
Originally Posted by ramanujan
I want it to happen, it won't happen. I'd settle for a viable alternative to to duals that brings my manabase to less cost than my car.
So basically you want cards banned due to cost. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bithlord
Although fetchlands are an important part of Legacy, would you give them up for: Top, Deathrite, Probe, DTT, TC, Mindtwist, Earthcraft and others?
I'm not advocating for a fetchland ban, I'm just asking the ^^ above question.
For the record... the only card in Legacy I want to see gone is Brainstorm. A fetchland ban would "fix" brainstorm to an appropriate level.
No, I think the fetchlands cause enough problems that they warrant banning just like Brainstorm. Banning fetchlands would *dramatically* increase the price of duals since you would need about three times as many for any given deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thresh84
I'd give up *every* dual land for the opportunity to see how the format would shake out with no duals, but all the other cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by non-inflammable
Yeah, so why not just ban the dual lands, and force us to fetch into Ravnica duals? You would breath life into the format in making any aggressive strategy very viable again, and would remove the entry barrier that are dual lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bithlord
Steam Vents reaches $100 before the week ends, but sure, I get the idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanti
Point 3 is true although I think is exaggerated by and large.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
In regards to point 1 and 2, the only cards that are pushed over the top by the presence of fetches are Deathrite Shaman and Brainstorm. The Delve spells would still be strong due to the presence of other cantrips and cheap spells in legacy. Top would get worse..in applications outside of miracles, so whats the point?
As for point 4, why would you want to? You can only play what your mana enables and fetch + duals enable the most amount of options as far as deck building. In addition, it also ensures other effects that would otherwise punish having 2 or more colors (wasteland, Blood Moon, Price of Progress, Sinkhole etc) aren't too good and dominant.
TL:DR Who the fuck wants burn/pox to be a tier 1 deck that badly?
I concur. People in here bitch non-stop about diversity and constantly discuss banning things on the basis of increasing diversity. Banning fetchlands might neuter Brainstorm et al, but it would have an opposite effect on format diversity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds
I don't think the impact to format diversity can be quantified easily. Many statements made either showing support or lack of support for a recent banned list change, regardless of format, have "format diversity" as a crux. I personally think format diversity is a very complex topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
On the surface, we can hypothisize what would happen if decks just replaced fetches with duals. Blood moon/wasteland/Port become very effective cards. Deck builders begin weighing the costs to the benefits of adding colors, trimming the number of colors to 2 - 3. Hate cards diminish in strength. Where does this all lead to, more format diversity or less?
Format diversity for eternal formats, even in the absence of banning list changes, moves significantly over time as new cards are printed and strategies become in vogue. I think every deck has several decks that are poor matchups, for one reason or another. If one deck becomes very popular, so will the decks that can trounce it. It is an endless buckyball.
It is possible fewer decks will be represented at top tables, over the long haul, if fetches are banned. It also seems quite possible the opposite effect will occur. I'm not prepared to say what would be good/popular if fetches are banned, how sure are you?
That just begs the question "Why"
Why would WOTC risk disrupting the format so heavily for a handful of cards?
Why would WOTC potentially alienate large chunks of the legacy community for a possibly more diverse format?
1) Because those cards are the essential to blame for next to all bannings in the last decade and the reason why one shell is dominating the format forever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds
2) they wont ban fetches and alienate the playerbase. Aarons statement about Brainstorm was pretty clear on explaining their handling of the format. Legacy players just want to keep their "fixed" 20 slots in their decks consisting of 8 fetches, 4 brainstorm, 4 ponder and 4 FoW, no matter if we keep on banning a dozen more cards instead over the next years. Legacy does have its holy cows. They rather ban SnT, Sneak Attack, Griselbrand and Emrakul altogether before admitting, that the deck would be an unplayable pile of junk without Brainstorm and Fetches gluing the deck together.
Top, DTT, Treasure Cruise, Mental Misstep, Gitaxian Probe, Deathrite Shaman, Survival of the fittest and Mystical Tutor were not banned because fetches were too good, it’s because those cards caused actual problems in the format. Fetches or not, with the exception of deathrite shaman, those cards would likely be banned anyways.
For that matter, in your example, I’d argue Sol Lands are probably more at fault for Sneak/Show than fetches.
Just summarizing, not necessarily supporting all points. I do feel that a fetchland ban does tip the scales towards fair for brainstorm, sdt, drs, etc. I'm convinced it's a legitimate argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds
If this was the case, the mono-red variant of Sneak - which plays a lot more Sol Lands - would be actually good. A+B combo requires Brainstorm to function smoothly, and Brainstorm is dependent on fetch lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds
From a pure cost situation... the counterpart to steam vents (tropical island) is listed at $400 (out of stock) on Starcity. So, $100 is better. That said I doubt steam vents (or any other shock) would get that high, since we are moving into a shockland standard again in a few months :).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
We're getting super far afield now though.
There are two things I'd like to see happen, only one of which is able to be handled by the ban list: 1) break the fetch land manabase chokehold and 2) make viable alternative dual lands. 1 can be achieved as easily as banning fetchlands (it won't be, but it could be), but doing that runs directly counter to 2. On the other hand, if they did it in conjunction with printing duals that are specifically intended to be alternatives to duals that could help somewhat alleviate the huge price increase on OG duals.
But, again, this is all hypothetical becuase fetch+Dual is just as much a "pillar" as brainstorm.
They wouldn't. And we all know that, but we're talking about hypothetical situations. Banning fetches is just as likely as banning brainstorm, and banning OG duals is a teensy bit more likely, but way beyond the realm of possiblity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds
Not quite. They'll admit that it would be junk without the core fetches + brainstorm + FoW. They just won't do anything about it, because "the players want to play with fetches, brainstorm, and FoW".Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
No fetches/Brainstorm would make Sneak//Show extremely clunky but playable, there is still actual upside in playing the deck as you can still ape out a Griselbrand turn 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
No sol Lands makes that deck pretty awful, everything slows down a full turn and you no longer have the option of cheesing people out with turn 2 bloodmoon or turn 3 Jace.
I'm starting to come around on the idea of a fetch ban, but only if they use their new "look at the top x" cards design, and make them of a sufficient digging power to replicate a fetch. Like, look at your top 10, and take an island or swamp card and put it into play, put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order. Something like that, which is printed sufficiently, any coincides with a fetch ban would be ok with me.