[Deck] Goblins

A comment on the Shardless BUG matchup:
It is really very critical that we kill their Goyf early. If they have an active Goyf we can't profitably attack, and we need to build a critical mass of Goblins before they just Deluge our board. We can't profitably attack through a Goyf because Goyf can just eat any x/2s we send into combat, and DRS can eat any 1/1s, so we lose 2 creatures per turn attacking into a Goyf+DRS. But if we kill the Goyf then we can just hold our 1/1s back and just attack with x/2s. DRS has to die or they have to trade an x/2 with an x/2. Aside from Goyf every creature they run is an X/2. We can win a game of attrition when our Warchief, Piledrivers and Ringleaders trade with their DRS, Shardless agents and Baleful Stixessessss. No such luck when they have an active Goyf on the board.

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

A comment on the Shardless BUG matchup:
It is really very critical that we kill their Goyf early. If they have an active Goyf we can't profitably attack, and we need to build a critical mass of Goblins before they just Deluge our board. We can't profitably attack through a Goyf because Goyf can just eat any x/2s we send into combat, and DRS can eat any 1/1s, so we lose 2 creatures per turn attacking into a Goyf+DRS. But if we kill the Goyf then we can just hold our 1/1s back and just attack with x/2s. DRS has to die or they have to trade an x/2 with an x/2. Aside from Goyf every creature they run is an X/2. We can win a game of attrition when our Warchief, Piledrivers and Ringleaders trade with their DRS, Shardless agents and Baleful Stixessessss. No such luck when they have an active Goyf on the board.

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100% agreed. I've been having a very similar thought process about this matchup.
Their decay's on our vials are such a beating and this is a matchup where we really need to be as grindy as possible.
So my sideboard plan is:
-4 Vial, -3 Lackey
+2 Sudden Demise, +3 Relic, +1 Stingscourger, +1 Pendelhaven.

This is an old Jim Davis idea from Extended Goblins:

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Originally Posted by Jim Davis

I had a plan for every matchup, right down to the Pendelhaven in the sideboard. Many people questioned me about that after the event, but the plan against any attrition-based matchup was to board out all four Rite of Flames, which required another land. Pendelhaven did tons of work with all of the random 1/1 Goblins and made the most important part of any attrition-based matchup (blocking) so much easier.

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As you rightly said Jon, the majority of the deck's creatures are x/2s, so Pendelhaven being able to help us punch through that seems mighty fine.

Wouldn't mind getting some feedback on this idea because it's easy to convince yourself something is clever and excellent, and another to convince someone who's not deep in the tank :laugh:. List for reference

Yes, Pendelhaven seems good there. It should actually be decent in all the midrangy matchups. My only knock against it is I'm not too keen on Green right now.

Boarding out Vial and Lackey is an interesting approach. Vial is incredible in Grindy matchups and Shardless is the grindiest. But since they have so many good answers to Vial (Decay, Pulse, even Hymn) maybe it is best to side those out and keep up the goblin count postboard.

I'm still just looking for a consistent answer to Goyf. The only card coming to mind is Terminate. Strike that; Terminate is too mana intensive. A mono black spell like Deathmark would be better. Or Doom Blade. That seems so obvious. Has anyone tried it in the main or side?

Since I'm not splashing, my answer is playing relic. Maybe we can try changing how we play it. I usually play it as soon as I can, but been thinking that holding in hand could be good to. So we can get to attack with some small goblins, they'll safely block, and we play and crack relic, killing goyf.
If I was splashing I'd go for some Perish instead of other removal.

Regarding siding out vial and lackey: I decided to side out Lackey on the draw. Indeed chances of him conecting are slim, and we need beefy goblins to catch up with bug starting. Siding out vial sounds very wrong though. Saying they have answers for it doesn't really cut it. It's one of our best weapons against them. Also, I'd rather they use 2 mana with decay or 3 mana with pulse, to destroy a 1cc card from us, then destroying our Warchief or Chieftain.
On the play I'm inclined to keep lackey though. They have few answers for it, and we can start working on their mana base ASAP.
Anyhow, my sb against them so far is 2 Blood Moon, 2 Relic, 2 kinesis, taking out either 4 lackeys, prospector and piled river, or a bunch of other random stuff.

If you want a non-goblin target removal, just play StP. Deathmark is pretty narrow (doesn't kill Delver, Young Peezy, or Angler). Doom blade is expensive vs. DnT. White also gives you the best SB cards like Wear / Tear, RIP, Canonist, C. Priest, and Thalia.

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Originally Posted by L10

If you want a non-goblin target removal, just play StP. Deathmark is pretty narrow (doesn't kill Delver, Young Peezy, or Angler). Doom blade is expensive vs. DnT. White also gives you the best SB cards like Wear / Tear, RIP, Canonist, C. Priest, and Thalia.

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I see Doomblade having several advantages over StP. First and foremost is Earwig squad. While the white cards you listed are without a doubt excellent sideboard cards, none of them are maindeck-able. Earwig squad is, and it gives you a shot at winning G1 against combo and it makes the Miracles match a cakewalk. So black still looks like a stronger splash color than white right now. The format has too many fair decks. If unfair decks take over then white splash and maindeck Thalias can be a thing. At which point I would consider StP as sideboard spot removal. But for the time being black looks better than white.

My second thought is that Doomblade's cmc of 2 is actually a benefit since it plays through Chalice @ 1. That's important because Eldrazi will drop Chalice @ 1 to turn off spot removal. And We will drop chalice @ 1 against miracles and delver decks where Doomblade is still live.

Dismember is also a fine choice vs eldrazi too

Hi guys, in two weeks i'll be attending GP Prague. I'm having trouble to decide which build I want to play. I have tested Gobolord's build, and must say it feels good. One thing does bother me: I sometimes miss Warchief for a fast explosive ending.

So, do I splash? I don't like Green nowadays. White has been good to me in the past. I never tried the Black splash all that much.

Now before you give your opinion: attending GP's in Europe mean expecting Combo. White seems the obvious choice, but reading the last couple of posts made me wonder: will Black also be good enough? @ Sampi: nice catch, you can even cast it under Blood Moon, which is huge. I'm considering to play Dismember, even without splashing.

Also Warchief vs Chieftain? Splashing Black would give Warchief a slight advantage.

Some feedback would be appreciated :-)

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Originally Posted by Chatto

Hi guys, in two weeks i'll be attending GP Prague. I'm having trouble to decide which build I want to play. I have tested Gobolord's build, and must say it feels good. One thing does bother me: I sometimes miss Warchief for a fast explosive ending.

So, do I splash? I don't like Green nowadays. White has been good to me in the past. I never tried the Black splash all that much.

Now before you give your opinion: attending GP's in Europe mean expecting Combo. White seems the obvious choice, but reading the last couple of posts made me wonder: will Black also be good enough? @ Sampi: nice catch, you can even cast it under Blood Moon, which is huge. I'm considering to play Dismember, even without splashing.

Also Warchief vs Chieftain? Splashing Black would give Warchief a slight advantage.

Some feedback would be appreciated :-)

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Hello Chatto,

I highly recommend the list I just ran this past weekend and wrote the report about on the previous page....

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader

3 Pilediver
3 Mogg War Marshal

2 Warchief
2 Chiefain

1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Krenko Mob Boss

1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Earwig Squad

2 Gempalm
1 Stingscourger
1 Warren Weirding
2 Pyrokinesis

4 Cavern
4 Waste
4 Port
5 Fetch
3 Mountain
3 Badlands

Sideboard:
3 Blood Moon
1 Pyrokinesis
3 Relic of Progentius
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void

This build did very well against combo over the weekend. You've got the Earwig squad main which gives you an Oops I Win card against combo G1 while also giving you a huge trump against Miracles. Post board you have Relic, Leyline and Chalice to interfere with combo decks.

I used to run 3 Thalias main back in the day, and I eventually came to the conclusion that I was losing more midrage matchups because of them than the combo matchups they were winning. Having a card you can only cast of Plateau is problematic, especially when your G1 is a grind. You don't have that problem with Earwig Squad, and you don't need to devote as many slots to it. Beyond Thalia W gives you RiP and Cannonist. Those are both incredible cards, but black gives you Leyline and you always have Chalice and Relic as well. Chalice and Relic are actually faster than the white cards you named, and you do not run any risk of having them stuck in hand because you drew Mountains and Wastelands instead of Fetches. Again, that's super important because you can still lose to combo by having any of those W cards in hand and not drawing the mana you need to cast it.

The Warchief/Chieftain split was relevant too. There are many MUs now where Chieftain is very strong, specifically against Shardless and Eldrazi. But Warchief is never a bad card. The cost reduction really helps you go all-out aggro for alpha strikes. I have zero regrets about running the split. The Haste bonus is the most important benefit anyway. Don't feel like you need to pick one over the other. Do some netdecking; you'll see that the lords are very interchangeable across otherwise similar builds.

Dismember is a great card, but there will be times when it doesn't kill a Goyf on its own. Pyrokinesis has the same problem though. Honestly, not having a reliable answer to Goyf is one of the factors keeping Goblins in check in the format. That's why I've been harping on about solutions that I haven't really seen reported on yet, including mono-black spot removal.

Hi JRW,

if your looking for an answer to kill goyf, snuf out may be a solution if you play badlands anyways.
And if give the opponent some more life is worth the removal you can remove goyf at instant speed without paying mana.
not sure if this is the answer your looking for but its better than splashing white and play stp;)
And it also a good asnwer vs a big KotR, or big creatures from eldrazi and such.


http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...9595&type=card

I mean, if we are going to play a non-goblin kill spell to kill Goyf I'd splash white for Swords to Plowshares, as goblin players did back in 2008 for that very reason. If you are going to drop some synergy just run the best thing available. This is still Legacy.

Examples:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=267&d=116360&f=LE

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=320&d=119790&f=LE

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=152&d=111663&f=LE

etc.

I simply searched lists that contained Goblin Lackey and Swords to Plowshares.

That also gives us access to Seal of Cleansing // Wear // Tear and of course Thalia, Guardian of Thraben / Ethersworn Canonist.

@ jrw: ive seen your list, and read your report! Pretty impressive run you had. Do you think maindecking Kinesis is a neccesary evil these days? I've seen the split between Warchief and Chieftain before, seems having best of both worlds given you more game-lines. I'll give it a shot.

Regarding spotremoval: StP in my opinion is the best. However, there are some others (not naming cards already mentioned):

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...1828&type=card

One black, and one creature to sac...

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...7917&type=card

Could get mana-intensive.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...0354&type=card

Terminate, and then some... Getting rid of PW is not a small thing.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...4455&type=card

Almost the same as Bone Splinters

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...6613&type=card

At least you can clear your GY, and perhaps shrink the Goyf... One can hope :smile:

It occured to me that Black has the most spotremoval.

@ dissy: you do know it's you who will lose 4 life, right? Or do you mean giving up your life for free is like giving your opponent life? In that case, I understand.

@ Olaf: sure looks like a plan, and perhaps one of the more easier says to get rid of Goyf. Those example-list run some pretty greedy-manabases!

I don't really see the point of running that kind of non-goblin spotremoval. In my oppinion Relic + MWM is all you need to combat Goyfs. Keeping a 1/1 creature + 1 mana untapped keeps Goyf from doing anything. Relic has the additional upsides that you get a free carddraw (when you look at it as a cmc2 removal spell), you can eat your opponents graveyard (taking away cards that could be used for Gurmag Angler, DRS and such), it doesn't put any strain on your manabase plus it's useful in other (i.e. "non-Goyf") MUs as well.

On Kinesis: I'm maindecking 2 copies as well, because they are great against Eldrazi and basically any kind of Delver deck (they lose a little of their value when plaiyng against Hymn to Tourarch), as well as D&T and Elves.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

I don't really see the point of running that kind of non-goblin spotremoval...

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I should have been clear, I totally agree with GoboLord here. I don't think the deck needs the STP at all. I was only saying that if you're going to continue this line of reasoning your options are basically STP and Dismember, as that's what the manabase can handle with least de-synergy.

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Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard

I should have been clear, I totally agree with GoboLord here. I don't think the deck needs the STP at all. I was only saying that if you're going to continue this line of reasoning your options are basically STP and Dismember, as that's what the manabase can handle with least de-synergy.

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Agreed, but I just wanted to point out some other spotremoval which were not that stressing on the manabase.

I agree with Gobolord, extra removal just isn't what we need. It feels like you're playing to not lose rather than playing to win.

Remember, we live and die on the board. We can't play a RDW style game with Goblins, but we can win the attrition game and having a heap of snuff outs or plows stuck in our hands just seems bad. I've even cut Tarfire cos I'm sick of how bad it actually is.

FWIW I played Gobolord's list the other day and it was sweet. Would recommend/10.

tl;dr: spot removal which is better suited for Goblins is usefull, but there is none. We don't have it, so we stick to what we have.

I respectfully disagree. I understand you can chump-block Goyf all day long. It's just that you are not solving the problem. Also, getting rid of Goyf with a combination of cards, say MWM and Relic, isn't the same as spot removal. I'm keeping other problematic big creatures out of the picture here. Chumping is not the same as removing the problem, rather stalling and hoping for the best.

I do agree with the notion that non-Goblin spot removal is suboptimal as well. Also, the design of the best spot removal for Goblins (ie, 'destroy target creature' or 'deal X damage to creature or player', is it a tribal-card etc etc) is open for debate... But not here. Right now we have to do with what we got.

Another point for the goblin team. Good Job.

JPR at it again! Oh shit, wadddddup?

Hello Chieftains!

I'll be attending GP Columbus this weekend with Goblins. Wanted to get some feedback on my current take on the list and sideboard, as well as commentary on matchups I'm concerned about.

First, the list:

Lands (23)
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Wasteland
3 - 4x Rishadan Port
0 - 1x Pendelhaven
11 Mountain

Artifacts (4)
4x AEther Vial

Instants (2)
2x Pyrokinesis

Creatures (31)
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader

4x Goblin Chieftain
4x Gempalm Incinerator
3x Mogg War Marshal
1x Skirk Prospector
1x Stingscourger
1x Tuktuk Scrapper
1x Krenko, Mob Boss

Sideboard (15)
2x Relic of Progenitus
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Pithing Needle
2x Blood Moon
2x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Siege-Gang Commander

So, I'd like to talk about my sideboard in relation to feared matchups. The 4x Chalice and 2x Thorn is there to combat Storm decks, which I am afraid will have no issues knocking me out of the competition! Understandably, splashing a 2nd color for additional disruption like Earwig Squad of Thalia would be helpful but I would like the deck to try to avoid using fetch or dual lands for the time being. I know that Relic of Progenitus is also helpful in the Storm matchup with Past in Flames so that is a whole 8 cards being brought in for the matchup. Obviously the Pyrokinesis and some number of Ringleaders (if not all of them?) are boarded out for the games, but what about Aether Vial as well? Is it necessary to try to get a mana advantage against a deck that will win through little disruption anyway? Additionally, is it a good idea to bring in a copy of Goblin Sharpshooter or two over Gempalms in case of Empty the Warrens? I know that Belcher does do this but I'm not 100 percent familiar with the Storm matchups to know if they bother anymore.

The Pithing Needles have been very helpful at improving the Sneak and Show and Lands matchups. I wonder if I could squeeze another one in but I'm not sure if another Relic of Progenitus is just better in its place. Relic will make Goyf/DRS and Reanimator a bit more tolerable. Also, is it worth bringing Pithing Needle in versus Reanimator? Naming Griselbrand is sweet but I feel like they're just going to get Iona or Elesh in the first place anyway so it seems like a waste of space.

In addition to trying to find room for more Relics versus Reanimator - I feel very naked with only 1 Stingscourger in the 75 now. I used to play a 2nd one in the sideboard but I just couldn't find the room in the new configuration. Obviously Siege-Gang Commander seems very out of place here BUT I couldn't find a spot for it in the maindeck anymore. The reason it is still in the board is to bring in versus Miracles. Many of them are running Moat in the sideboard now and I'd hate to lose a match against such a great matchup. Is there room in my mainboard to slot it back in? Cut a Piledriver, perhaps?

I'm also concerned with Death and Taxes. I hear that we have a relatively even, if not better matchup versus them but I've always found the exact opposite. Mother of Runes and Stoneforge Mystic make it nearly impossible for us to interact meaningfully if they have either of them in the early turns. I'm especially concerned considering I'm running no copies of Tarfire. The maindeck Pyrokinesis DOES seem fair versus D&T - but at the same time trying to get an X for 2 with it while a live Mother of Runes is on the battlefield is a nightmare. Also, Thalia is a huge liability during combat, making it so that Chieftains cannot even attack to provide pressure. Does anyone have any ideas to try here? Moving up to 4 Gempalm Incinerators should help win the CA race versus them but it is quite reliant on board presence.

I saw that GoboLord was bringing Blood Moons into the sideboard to fight Eldrazi and BUG as well as Lands matchup. I wanted to try to fit 3 along with 3 Relics but as above I feel like I just don't have enough spac ein

Anyway, regarding the maindeck, I figured it would be a good time to try the 4x Chieftain version again, albeit without the Warren Instigators. It seems that Eldrazi and BUG are going to be big players so getting the additional power and toughness alongside more copies of Mogg War Marshal will help in the grindy matchups. When playing against Eldrazi, how often are you guys finding that Pyrokinesis is getting pointed at TKS as opposed to a Mimic/Endless One board?

I also feel very naked without an extra shatter effect in the 75. Obviously Stoneblade and D&T are going to have important equipments for us to have to smash, but I honestly couldn't find another slot for a 2nd Tuktuk. Any suggestions?

Is four Gempalm Incinerator too many? Is not having any copies of Tarfire a poor idea? I like that having more copies of Mogg War Marshal makes the Gempalms quite a bit more effective, but it feels like we're going to be slow, especially on the draw to take out key creatures like DRS or Mother of Runes. Maybe a Singleton Tarfire is the way to go?

I only have access to 3 Rishadan Port at the moment and I'm trying a Pendelhaven in the fourth slot. Is it worth just trying this configuration to get surprise Lackeys through DRS on turn 2, or should I really be focusing on trying to hate out their mana sources? I don't know if I'll be able to acquire the fourth Port before the event but I will try.

Anyway, I've rambled for quite a bit. Just wanted to put my thoughts on paper before the event even if they've been discussed to death 1000 times. Thanks for your feedback, everyone! Hopefully I'll see some of you there in Columbus as well :) Good luck in Prague, too!