Re: [Deck] Elf Glimpse Staff
[QUOTE=Mental;292561
About Chant: Why do we need it? We're about as fast as combo, so I'd think that 4 Thoughtseize + our speed is probably enough to have a decent MU. Plus, isn't Duress good enough? I know that Chant is versatile, but is it versatile enough to warrant a color splash AND not being able to stop them from playing Balance the next turn? I'd just go with Duress if I had to run 6 pieces of protection.
[/QUOTE]
It's not really a "color splash", in the same way that grapeshot isn't a splash. It's most useful as a kill card and somewhat more then grapeshot early.
I'm back down to 1x Chant after including Gaea's herald back in the main.
The big reason for not including duress is diving top. It would be sweet if you could just use discard to protect yourself in order to attack, but an explosives or a deed or what not on top of the deck is a stupid way to lose.
"I know that Chant is versatile, but is it versatile enough to warrant a color splash AND not being able to stop them from playing Balance the next turn?"
I'm not sure what you mean. You chant them during their upkeep the turn after you go off, so there are basically no outs they can draw.
Re: [Deck] Elf Glimpse Staff
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wobbles The Goose
It's not really a "color splash", in the same way that grapeshot isn't a splash. It's most useful as a kill card and somewhat more then grapeshot early.
I'm back down to 1x Chant after including viridian shaman.
The big reason for not including duress is diving top. It would be sweet if you could just use discard to protect yourself in order to attack, but an explosives or a deed or what not on top of the deck is a stupid way to lose.
"I know that Chant is versatile, but is it versatile enough to warrant a color splash AND not being able to stop them from playing Balance the next turn?"
I'm not sure what you mean. You chant them during their upkeep the turn after you go off, so there are basically no outs they can draw.
I mean that I know it helps once you've gone off, but a) it's hit by counterbalance, b) it doesn't stop them from playing Counterbalane (it does for a turn I guess).
Re: [Deck] Elf Glimpse Staff
You have to think though, If they FoW and Stifle, they've used up 3 cards, and it is probably turn three.
Dealing with all the elves may be a problem at this point, don't forget, if you are Grapeshotting for lethal, you probably have ~14-15 elves on the table.
Red Thresh will capitalize on this, games two and three with 'clasm/explosives.
But you'll have boarded in AND drawn all your hate if it gets to that point.
If they had double stifle AND the two blue open, ouch, sorry for your luck.
But still, don't forget your army.
Re: [Deck] Elf Glimpse Staff
If that's the case, then we can assume that some combination of Hivemaster/Fecundicity are necessary in the sideboard to protect your army. If you've already drawn your deck, Hivemaster is probably the better option. What about playing Caller of the Claw as a 1 of in the board? It's probably unnecessary, but it could be interesting.
Re: [Deck] Elf Glimpse Staff
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mental
If that's the case, then we can assume that some combination of Hivemaster/Fecundicity are necessary in the sideboard to protect your army. If you've already drawn your deck, Hivemaster is probably the better option. What about playing Caller of the Claw as a 1 of in the board? It's probably unnecessary, but it could be interesting.
I play 2-3 of them, they are pretty good. Sometimes I like Fecundity better, sometimes Caller.
Re: [Deck] Elf Glimpse Staff
@Mental
I don't know if the deck actually needs more than one combo win condition because, frankly, the deck doesn't have any room for it. I am a big fan of Hivemaster, though I can understand why people are opting for decklists without it (going for speed as well as the absence of Chord). I like the idea of Claw, cause the card could mean GG in the right situations.
Also, regarding the Dragon kill. Yes, there is always the StP issue (and now Snuff Out thanks to Team America and Eva Green), but you don't sacrifice anything. If they want to counter your Dragon, they will be countering your Chord. If your Dragon resolves, there's a good chance you'll have insect tokens to devour, leaving your board risk-free. That's just a small benefit of running that version. However it seems that everyone has pretty much decided on the Harvest + Grapeshot/Orim's Chant build. I will still be testing Predator Dragon just so we can have those results around.
Re: [Deck] Elf Glimpse Staff
Ok, so let's discuss the merits of Chord of Calling then. It does seem nice, I'll admit, because it can a) Find the win b) Find missing combo parts, and c) Find Caller of the Claw postboard, which may end up being very important. But here's my problem with it:
With Heritage Druid in play, the Convoke Ability is basically meaningless. You don't draw off Glimpse when you use it, and, amazingly, it costs the same to fetch and play a 1 drop with Chord as with Harvest, and Harvest is also an extremely versatile bomb when going off (and seriously, who cares if your opponent can fetch up some Tarmogoyfs? The game's over anyways, and you can definitely beat down FTW through 3 Tarmogoyfs if your entire deck is in play). So, frankly, I just don't think it's necessary or worth the investment to play.
Re: [Deck] Elf Glimpse Staff
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mental
Ok, so let's discuss the merits of Chord of Calling then. It does seem nice, I'll admit, because it can a) Find the win b) Find missing combo parts, and c) Find Caller of the Claw postboard, which may end up being very important. But here's my problem with it:
With Heritage Druid in play, the Convoke Ability is basically meaningless. You don't draw off Glimpse when you use it, and, amazingly, it costs the same to fetch and play a 1 drop with Chord as with Harvest, and Harvest is also an extremely versatile bomb when going off (and seriously, who cares if your opponent can fetch up some Tarmogoyfs? The game's over anyways, and you can definitely beat down FTW through 3 Tarmogoyfs if your entire deck is in play). So, frankly, I just don't think it's necessary or worth the investment to play.
You have to look at it in context.
-Chord is amazing because it's instant speed and will win you the game if you have 8 creatures on the board and access to 9 mana, regardless of comboing off or not. Many times I wait for my opponent to tap out for whatever reason, respond by convoking my board, dropping a dragon and then killing them the next turn.
-You don't draw off Glimpse, because generally you don't need it. With the Dragon kill, you don't need to dig nor draw. If you have Chord, you will win because all you're doing is tutoring for the kill.
-I realize that this strategy is vulnerable to creature kill, but unless the kill is Snuff Out or StP, there is no way that 20/20 Dragon is dying.
I've had positive experiences is all I'll say. I'm not saying it's better than Grapeshot kill, I'm just still testing it. I would suggest you give it a shot too. It's a lot better than it seems on paper.
Re: [Deck] Elf Glimpse Staff
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yesmilord
You have to look at it in context.
-Chord is amazing because it's instant speed and will win you the game if you have 8 creatures on the board and access to 9 mana, regardless of comboing off or not. Many times I wait for my opponent to tap out for whatever reason, respond by convoking my board, dropping a dragon and then killing them the next turn.
-You don't draw off Glimpse, because generally you don't need it. With the Dragon kill, you don't need to dig nor draw. If you have Chord, you will win because all you're doing is tutoring for the kill.
-I realize that this strategy is vulnerable to creature kill, but unless the kill is Snuff Out or StP, there is no way that 20/20 Dragon is dying.
I've had positive experiences is all I'll say. I'm not saying it's better than Grapeshot kill, I'm just still testing it. I would suggest you give it a shot too. It's a lot better than it seems on paper.
Ok, you make a good case I guess. I'll test it out. I don't think more than 2 are necessary because between Glimpse and the 2 you play, you shouldn't have much trouble finding one when you need to win.
What's your list right now?
Re: [Deck] Elf Glimpse Staff
What is the minimum number of lands that you could run?
Would it be such a bad thing to run 4x Land Grant? In addition to lowering the land count you can also get a 1x Bayou (or any other G dual for that matter).
Also, with 4 Elvish Spirit Guides in the deck, Crop Rotation could be fantastic in chaining Gaea's Cradles.
Multani's Acolyte seems like it could be Elvish Visionary 5 + 6 if needed.
Finally, Mike Hron did fairly well at the PT - his list had 2 Cloudstone Curios. Just food for thought.
Re: [Deck] Elf Glimpse Staff
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cletus
What is the minimum number of lands that you could run?
Would it be such a bad thing to run 4x Land Grant? In addition to lowering the land count you can also get a 1x Bayou (or any other G dual for that matter).
Also, with 4 Elvish Spirit Guides in the deck, Crop Rotation could be fantastic in chaining Gaea's Cradles.
Multani's Acolyte seems like it could be Elvish Visionary 5 + 6 if needed.
Finally, Mike Hron did fairly well at the PT - his list had 2 Cloudstone Curios. Just food for thought.
Land Grant can be countered, severely neutering a deck that often only has 1 land in its hand.
ESG isn't played in most versions of this deck as far as I know - It's not very good, and it's an elf only in name.
Cloudstone Curio is really, really, win more. It's just unnecessary beyond belief: Think about it. Once you have Glimpse down, if you can generate 3 mana to play Curio, you still need a Heritage Druid and some amount of Nettle Sentinels/lots of other elves to win because you'll keep bouncing your elves and you'll need 3 untapped at once to generate mana, which you can't do with say, 4 elves in play and Curio if you already tapped 3 of them to play Curio. It doesn't really do to much - this isn't Glimpse + Kobolds.
Re: [Deck] Elf Glimpse Staff
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mental
Ok, you make a good case I guess. I'll test it out. I don't think more than 2 are necessary because between Glimpse and the 2 you play, you shouldn't have much trouble finding one when you need to win.
What's your list right now?
2...Chord? or 2 Dragon?
Chord acts as another creature tutor as well as a win condition tutor. I don't need to "go off", I just need to produce enough creatures to convoke for either Regal Force or Predator Dragon. My list hasn't changed much because of two reasons: 1) I haven't had time to thoroughly test this deck against Legacy decks (I've been testing a lot more against Extended) 2) It's packed full right now. If I could manage to cut some stuff and add in 4 Thoughtseize, the list would be golden. At the same time, I don't want to risk my mana base to Wasteland, so it's still debatable.
(btw the list is virtually Saito's list from Berlin)
Dragon Elves
Lands:
15 Forests
2 Gaea's Cradle
Creatures:
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Wirewood Hivemaster
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Predator Dragon
Spells:
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Chord of Calling
SB:
none atm, still considering my options. Note that the board can be extremely diverse, as you can Chord for any creature you want. Tar Fiend is an excellent answer to control btw.
Once again I must emphasize the bonuses of instant speed tutor.
-Use as protection.
-Use as an answer to your opponent tapping out.
-Use to force your opponent to tap out EoT or waste a counter before you go off.
-General use: tutors for a combo piece.
-General use: tutors for a win condition.
-No risk to your creature. Since Chord is "put into play", they have no idea what you are tutoring for, making it a must-counter.
This goes hand in hand with Wirewood Hivemaster (the REAL reason why I prefer this version). He just produces so many tokens you don't even need Glimpse to just go beats.
Re: [Deck] Elf Glimpse Staff
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mental
I mean that I know it helps once you've gone off, but a) it's hit by counterbalance, b) it doesn't stop them from playing Counterbalane (it does for a turn I guess).
A) If they get a counterbalance for 1 down, you can't really combo anyway. I mean, the best you can do is fetch a Gaea's Herald, combo out, try to chant during their draw step, and attack the next turn.
B) Preventing counterbalance one turn is better than trying to combo through it. That doesn't happen often.
Re: [Deck] Elf Glimpse Staff
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wobbles The Goose
A) If they get a counterbalance for 1 down, you can't really combo anyway. I mean, the best you can do is fetch a Gaea's Herald, combo out, try to chant during their draw step, and attack the next turn.
B) Preventing counterbalance one turn is better than trying to combo through it. That doesn't happen often.
I guess this could also count as a positive for Chord.
STILL, I'm not trying to shove Chord down anyone's throat, I'm just saying that it should be tested.
Also for anyone that cares --
Just because LSV won PT Berlin doesn't make his list the best one. In fact, many people agree that it was the worst of the bunch. It depends on so much to go right, and if Kenny didn't have to mulligan 3 times in a row, Tezzerator would've totally destroyed Grapeshot Elves. I do realize the circumstances in Legacy are much different, but for those who don't keep up with extended, this is a little tidbit. Also, Chord for Orzhov Pontiff = GG for the mirror match.
Re: [Deck] Elf Glimpse Staff
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yesmilord
2...Chord? or 2 Dragon?
Chord acts as another creature tutor as well as a win condition tutor. I don't need to "go off", I just need to produce enough creatures to convoke for either Regal Force or Predator Dragon. My list hasn't changed much because of two reasons: 1) I haven't had time to thoroughly test this deck against Legacy decks (I've been testing a lot more against Extended) 2) It's packed full right now. If I could manage to cut some stuff and add in 4 Thoughtseize, the list would be golden. At the same time, I don't want to risk my mana base to Wasteland, so it's still debatable.
(btw the list is virtually Saito's list from Berlin)
Dragon Elves
Lands:
15 Forests
2 Gaea's Cradle
Creatures:
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Wirewood Hivemaster
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Predator Dragon
Spells:
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Chord of Calling
SB:
none atm, still considering my options. Note that the board can be extremely diverse, as you can Chord for any creature you want. Tar Fiend is an excellent answer to control btw.
Once again I must emphasize the bonuses of instant speed tutor.
-Use as protection.
-Use as an answer to your opponent tapping out.
-Use to force your opponent to tap out EoT or waste a counter before you go off.
-General use: tutors for a combo piece.
-General use: tutors for a win condition.
-No risk to your creature. Since Chord is "put into play", they have no idea what you are tutoring for, making it a must-counter.
This goes hand in hand with Wirewood Hivemaster (the REAL reason why I prefer this version). He just produces so many tokens you don't even need Glimpse to just go beats.
I agree with most of your post, but the last part doesn't quite follow. Are you saying that a straight beatdown path using Hivemaster is viable? Because you play no sac outlets. Or are you talking about the combo of Predator Dragon + Hivemaster?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wobbles
B) Preventing counterbalance one turn is better than trying to combo through it. That doesn't happen often.
Ok, but you could just have them discard it.
Re: [Deck] Elf Glimpse Staff
@Mental
A lot of people are putting a large emphasis on comboing off. With Hivemaster, I'm saying you can just play out your hand if you don't even have Glimpse, and have 10 damage on the board. This is especially good against other aggro-control decks that don't have access to board sweeping effects.
Re: [Deck] Elf Glimpse Staff
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mental
Land Grant can be countered, severely neutering a deck that often only has 1 land in its hand.
ESG isn't played in most versions of this deck as far as I know - It's not very good, and it's an elf only in name.
Cloudstone Curio is really, really, win more. It's just unnecessary beyond belief: Think about it. Once you have Glimpse down, if you can generate 3 mana to play Curio, you still need a Heritage Druid and some amount of Nettle Sentinels/lots of other elves to win because you'll keep bouncing your elves and you'll need 3 untapped at once to generate mana, which you can't do with say, 4 elves in play and Curio if you already tapped 3 of them to play Curio. It doesn't really do to much - this isn't Glimpse + Kobolds.
If they are countering Land Grant, you should be happy. Watching the coverage from Berlin, you really only need 1 land, 2 max, to combo off on turn 2, especially if you are running Elvish Spirt Guides.
The Guides are not useless, they generate mana when drawn off Glimpse in addition to accelerating on turn 2, if speed is what you are after. You're correct that they are an elf in name only. In this deck they might as well read 'Pitch Forest' or 'anti-Daze.'
Also, you misrepresent the uses of Curio. In Hron's deck they serve as a combo kill with Essence Warden, or act as extra Symbiotes to get the draw engine online. Therefore they aren't 'win-more' - Curio has multiple roles when you can't get Symbiote-Visionary or Glimpse.
Re: [Deck] Elf Glimpse Staff
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cletus
What is the minimum number of lands that you could run?
Would it be such a bad thing to run 4x Land Grant? In addition to lowering the land count you can also get a 1x Bayou (or any other G dual for that matter).
Also, with 4 Elvish Spirit Guides in the deck, Crop Rotation could be fantastic in chaining Gaea's Cradles.
Multani's Acolyte seems like it could be Elvish Visionary 5 + 6 if needed.
Finally, Mike Hron did fairly well at the PT - his list had 2 Cloudstone Curios. Just food for thought.
That's actually an interesting idea. I know rockout here has posted a list with Crop Rotations and ESGs, but if you combine ESG with Land Grant with Crop Rotation, you might be getting something pretty potent. I'm not sure if that's a bit overkill though.
I would like to have Multani's Acolyte, but the deck just doesn't have enough room right now I don't think.
I like the idea of Curio, but it's not what the deck needs right now.
Re: [Deck] Elf Glimpse Staff
I thought about Chord but it's much more at home in Extended than in Legacy. It makes the combo slower as Harvest can complete the engine on its own, some mana provided. Hivemaster+Chord+bullet is also a legitimate mirror plan in Ext - not so in Legacy.
On a related but slightly different note, Elves in Legacy doesn't have as much to gain from a controllish silver bullet approach. Disruption starts t0, combo is faster by 1.5-2 turns, and stalling is a less viable strategy because of faster clocks (Dreadnought), cheaper or faster disruption (Chalice t1), and better draw as well as recursion engines.
Elves really needs to go off as early as possible, which means we'll have fewer Elves available in matchups that we can't slow-roll. An unchecked Harvest for 2 pretty much guarantees to put us into position to go off next turn (or make a decent attempt). Chord does not.
Chord also requires more permanents in play before it starts being useful. One would feel compelled to play Hivemaster, but again, a Swarm strategy works much better in a format without routine t1-t2 wins and t0 counters as well as t1 Chalices (well, it's more consistent in Legacy) and cheaper removal.
Let's also not forget that Weird Harvest is at least tempo advantage most of the time (even if you have to pass), and card advantage if your opponent doesn't get another turn. Harvest turns some situations into wins where Chord would merely allow us to pass the turn in a good position, and similarly turns some awkward situations into good positions where Chord would merely allow us to chump another turn.
In general I think our toolbox should be as minimal as possible in order to increase consistency - key to winning early on a regular basis, but also to winning through discard and counters.
Lastly, Chord is kind of an odd card. If you're way behind, it's bad. If you're way ahead, you probably don't need it.
//edit: I have been wrong before, though.
We still have Pact as an instant-speed option to draw singletons, even if those have to be green.
//edit:
@ Land Grant:
I'm aways vary of showing my hand to my opponent, but this is one of the decks that is well-suited to benefit.
@ Crop Rotation:
Seems at least solid. Note that the decks lives of Elves, though, and going below a certain number is dangerous. Still, it "counters" Wastes and gets Cradles.
@ Acolyte:
There's no room, imo. You only really need one cantrip Elf to abuse with Symbiotes.
@ Curio:
Great, now my hurt heads even more ;)
@ ESG:
I'm not sure if there's any confusion over this, but Gatherer says ESG is an Elf Spirit. So yeah, all the stuff that follows.
Re: [Deck] Elf Glimpse Staff
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Noman Peopled
I thought about Chord but it's much more at home in Extended than in Legacy. It makes the combo slower as Harvest can complete the engine on its own, some mana provided. Hivemaster+Chord+bullet is also a legitimate mirror plan in Ext - not so in Legacy.
On a related but slightly different note, Elves in Legacy doesn't have as much to gain from a controllish silver bullet approach. Disruption starts t0, combo is faster by 1.5-2 turns, and stalling is a less viable strategy because of faster clocks (Dreadnought), cheaper or faster disruption (Chalice t1), and better draw as well as recursion engines.
Elves really needs to go off as early as possible, which means we'll have fewer Elves available in matchups that we can't slow-roll. An unchecked Harvest for 2 pretty much guarantees to put us into position to go off next turn (or make a decent attempt). Chord does not.
Chord also requires more permanents in play before it starts being useful. One would feel compelled to play Hivemaster, but again, a Swarm strategy works much better in a format without routine t1-t2 wins and t0 counters as well as t1 Chalices (well, it's more consistent in Legacy) and cheaper removal.
Let's also not forget that Weird Harvest is at least tempo advantage most of the time (even if you have to pass), and card advantage if your opponent doesn't get another turn. Harvest turns some situations into wins where Chord would merely allow us to pass the turn in a good position, and similarly turns some awkward situations into good positions where Chord would merely allow us to chump another turn.
In general I think our toolbox should be as minimal as possible in order to increase consistency - key to winning early on a regular basis, but also to winning through discard and counters.
Lastly, Chord is kind of an odd card. If you're way behind, it's bad. If you're way ahead, you probably don't need it.
We still have Pact as an instant-speed option to draw singletons, even if those have to be green.
-Note that Chord decks can go off on turn 2 as well. Turn 3 is the most common, but turn 2 is definitely still a possibility. The deck needs the same nut-draw that Harvest/Grapeshot needs, so it's not that far off. The deck is far from a controllish, silver-bullet variant.
-The bullet plan is just an added bonus. I don't think that the Chord version is "slow-rolling". It plays a turn slower than the Harvest version, but is backed by a lot more support and a lot less "all-in" cards. In an example scenario, you could dump out your hand on turn 2 or 3, Chord for Tar Fiend, empty your opponent's hand, and sit on the board with a huge creature.
-For sure the card is less explosive than Harvest, but comes with a different box of benefits that makes it far from inferior.
